China removes top leadership contender Bo Xilai from post

[FairAndUnbiased]

太子党对中国的危害不可轻视，他们是腐败的主要根源，更是遏制中国发展的一种力量。如果中国长期被太子党控制，后果只能和历代王朝一样：昙花一现的繁荣后堕落，混乱，最终崩溃。以前无所谓，资源多得很，但现在地球的低成本资源即将完全被消耗，失败的成本是空前地大，如果中国现在失败，或者在将来20年内失败，将永世不得翻身。

中国人不应该依靠任何皇帝，任何家族。中国的绝大部分人才在民间，如果国家机器最终掌握在一个家族的手中，唯一的后果是把这些人才往海外推，让社会发展止步不前，最终的结果是让人们对社会失望。

太子党长期执政对中国的威胁仅次于米国。

I think it is up to grassroot people from Dalian or Chongqing to comment whether he is a good leader or not. The rest of us form opinions from his personality and how media depicts him. To me, as long as most people from Chongqing benefit from his policies, whether his son't tuition is paid by himself or bribe, I really don't care. I don't care whether he is dictator or not either as long as it benefit powerless people.

His flashy behavior will sooner or later gives him trouble. In China the preferred polititians are those emotionaless like Hu JinTao. Grandpa Wen is also making too much noises recently by publicly promoting political reform and fully openning the market. I sense trouble for him as well, let's see what's unfolding.

true, no one can say whether he is a good leader or bad leader except those in Chongqing.

this is why some democratic reform is needed, IMO. What if Bo Xilai was really a great leader for Chongqing and people there loved him regardless of his corruption? Now the North Korean dictator Zhang Dejiang comes to replace him?

 

[skyknight]

太子党对中国的危害不可轻视，他们是腐败的主要根源，更是遏制中国发展的一种力量。如果中国长期被太子党控制，后果只能和历代王朝一样：昙花一现的繁荣后堕落，混乱，最终崩溃。以前无所谓，资源多得很，但现在地球的低成本资源即将完全被消耗，失败的成本是空前地大，如果中国现在失败，或者在将来20年内失败，将永世不得翻身。

中国人不应该依靠任何皇帝，任何家族。中国的绝大部分人才在民间，如果国家机器最终掌握在一个家族的手中，唯一的后果是把这些人才往海外推，让社会发展止步不前，最终的结果是让人们对社会失望。

太子党长期执政对中国的威胁仅次于米国。



true, no one can say whether he is a good leader or bad leader except those in Chongqing.

this is why some democratic reform is needed, IMO. What if Bo Xilai was really a great leader for Chongqing and people there loved him regardless of his corruption? Now the North Korean dictator Zhang Dejiang comes to replace him?

但是现在的问题是我们是选择太子党还是选择欧美的狗的问题。
美国之音，每日电讯，金融时报，华尔街日报这些都在为温喝彩了，你以为他们是因为中国将会有个更好的前途而喝彩么？

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

老谋深算的还是胡，表面不动声色，内心赞同私有化，温只不过是他的急先锋罢了，到时候被清算的是温家，他倒可以全身而退

 

[fly2012]

太子党对中国的危害不可轻视，他们是腐败的主要根源，更是遏制中国发展的一种力量。如果中国长期被太子党控制，后果只能和历代王朝一样：昙花一现的繁荣后堕落，混乱，最终崩溃。以前无所谓，资源多得很，但现在地球的低成本资源即将完全被消耗，失败的成本是空前地大，如果中国现在失败，或者在将来20年内失败，将永世不得翻身。

中国人不应该依靠任何皇帝，任何家族。中国的绝大部分人才在民间，如果国家机器最终掌握在一个家族的手中，唯一的后果是把这些人才往海外推，让社会发展止步不前，最终的结果是让人们对社会失望。

太子党长期执政对中国的威胁仅次于米国。

QUOTE]

I am not that pessimistic. I feel China has passed the stage one leader can make a call. The education of grassroot people is the true hope of China. As one American Chinese expert who was in China when Mao died put: "When people go to Chinese cities like Beijing, they are all impressed by the modern infrastructure and luxury hotels. Few realized how sophiscated regular people become compared to the last generation."

No matter who becomes the leader, corruption will exist. (well US congress people are all rich as well) As long as China doesn't takes stupid steps (Like listen to IMF's proposal to get rid of SOE, open banking sector etc), it will continue to push forward. I mentioned in one of my other posts that even those kids from illiterate herder families from remote areas are commenting on international affairs on Internet, China can only move up.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

太子党对中国的危害不可轻视，他们是腐败的主要根源，更是遏制中国发展的一种力量。如果中国长期被太子党控制，后果只能和历代王朝一样：昙花一现的繁荣后堕落，混乱，最终崩溃。以前无所谓，资源多得很，但现在地球的低成本资源即将完全被消耗，失败的成本是空前地大，如果中国现在失败，或者在将来20年内失败，将永世不得翻身。

中国人不应该依靠任何皇帝，任何家族。中国的绝大部分人才在民间，如果国家机器最终掌握在一个家族的手中，唯一的后果是把这些人才往海外推，让社会发展止步不前，最终的结果是让人们对社会失望。

太子党长期执政对中国的威胁仅次于米国。

QUOTE]

I am not that pessimistic. I feel China has passed the stage one leader can make a call. The education of grassroot people is the true hope of China. As one American Chinese expert who was in China when Mao died put: "When people go to Chinese cities like Beijing, they are all impressed by the modern infrastructure and luxury hotels. Few realized how sophiscated regular people become compared to the last generation."

No matter who becomes the leader, corruption will exist. (well US congress people are all rich as well) As long as China doesn't takes stupid steps (Like listen to IMF's proposal to get rid of SOE, open banking sector etc), it will continue to push forward. I mentioned in one of my other posts that even those kids from illiterate herder families from remote areas are commenting on international affairs on Internet, China can only move up.

Destroying China's resources via the privatization is 100 times worse than the corruption.

 

[skyknight]

还有几个月，十八大后尘埃落定。我们拭目以待吧。

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

但是现在的问题是我们是选择太子党还是选择欧美的狗的问题。
美国之音，每日电讯，金融时报，华尔街日报这些都在为温喝彩了，你以为他们是因为中国将会有个更好的前途而喝彩么？

我从来没听过米国之音为温总喝彩，倒是华盛顿邮报和油泰财团在米国的最高代表亨利-波尔孙对习近平和王岐山等上海派/太子党赞不绝口。波尔孙甚至说习近平是他的私人朋友，你说中国领导和华尔街政权的最高代表有私人关系妥当吗？中国最终的敌人是米国的油泰财团，他们支持谁，我们就应该反对谁。

Xi Jinping - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Xi was described in a 2011 Washington Post article by those who know him as "pragmatic, serious, cautious, hard-working, down to earth and low-key. They also say he is a problem-solver and a leader seemingly uninterested in the trappings of high office."[37] He is also known to love Hollywood films like Saving Private Ryan[38] and The Departed.

Former U.S. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson described Xi as "the kind of guy who knows how to get things over the goal line."[

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

我从来没听过米国之音为温总喝彩，倒是华盛顿邮报和油泰财团在米国的最高代表亨利-波尔孙对习近平和王岐山等上海派/太子党赞不绝口。波尔孙甚至说习近平是他的私人朋友，你说中国领导和华尔街政权的最高代表有私人关系妥当吗？中国最终的敌人是米国的油泰财团，他们支持谁，我们就应该反对谁。

Xi Jinping - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

一些外交礼仪罢了，关键好看西方如何看待习近平的政策的大方向

他们和胡温见面的时候也不可能当面说他们坏话

 

[rcrmj]

中国的政治太复杂了，比欧美要复杂的多了，本来中国人的思路是曲线型的，不像西方人单个脑的。所以在中国搞政治单单把事情做好还不算，还要学会怎么‘混’
不过我挺佩服阿三的思路的，他们都是‘0’ 型的，那就是胡话一大堆，到头来都是空的

 

[SXNJ]

别的不想多说，关于薄的倒台之前大家都已经说了很多，我只想说有兴趣的话可以查查重庆这几年的财政收入和财政支出
看看重庆这几年的财政赤字是多少，我记得去年是500亿左右，薄确实为重庆人民做了很多好事，但是他主观上这么做的目的
是否单纯还很难说，即便客观上他得到了重庆人某种程度上的支持，也要看看这种模式是否是寅吃卯粮，是否可以持续
看看大连现在的人均可支配收入就都明白了，总的GDP不低，收入低的有点不成比例，让他这样搞下去，大连的今天就是重庆的明天

 

[WARRANT]

别的不想多说，关于薄的倒台之前大家都已经说了很多，我只想说有兴趣的话可以查查重庆这几年的财政收入和财政支出
看看重庆这几年的财政赤字是多少，我记得去年是500亿左右，薄确实为重庆人民做了很多好事，但是他主观上这么做的目的
是否单纯还很难说，即便客观上他得到了重庆人某种程度上的支持，也要看看这种模式是否是寅吃卯粮，是否可以持续
看看大连现在的人均可支配收入就都明白了，总的GDP不低，收入低的有点不成比例，让他这样搞下去，大连的今天就是重庆的明天

so nice.

 

[kawaraj]

The education of grassroot people is the true hope of China. As one American Chinese expert who was in China when Mao died put: "When people go to Chinese cities like Beijing, they are all impressed by the modern infrastructure and luxury hotels. Few realized how sophiscated regular people become compared to the last generation."

I think you are right. the education of the grassroots is an final advantage of a nation.

I don't know what's going on in China. But as I observed, China is taking some jerks in the reforms and transition to a more powerful nation. The princeling, or the elite, usually have the sight for a long view, and its inside from their memory of grow-up, therefore the instinct. While the leaders from the general public or the low castle tend to take practical path.

the education of the grassroots provides more access of those people to the top league of the political arena, thus melting into with with more fresh spirits and opinions. if you look at all powerful nations throughout the history, you will find that's a universal phenomenon.

The sad story of Pakistan, and other developing nations, notably South Asian nations and South American nations, is the invisible segregation of the class, we need a revolution to break up these fences, all people need equal access of knowledge, self awaking of political sense, instead of being part of the voting machine, some great thinkers, and so far.

China and Japan, together with other east asians, are already up in the highland, you guys have no reason to be pessimistic.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

别的不想多说，关于薄的倒台之前大家都已经说了很多，我只想说有兴趣的话可以查查重庆这几年的财政收入和财政支出
看看重庆这几年的财政赤字是多少，我记得去年是500亿左右，薄确实为重庆人民做了很多好事，但是他主观上这么做的目的
是否单纯还很难说，即便客观上他得到了重庆人某种程度上的支持，也要看看这种模式是否是寅吃卯粮，是否可以持续
看看大连现在的人均可支配收入就都明白了，总的GDP不低，收入低的有点不成比例，让他这样搞下去，大连的今天就是重庆的明天

最重要的是财富分配。作为对比，可以看看张德江在广东时的成绩。2005年，WK时间第一次爆发，当时张德江出动武警维稳，局势失控后武警被唯独在发电厂内，被迫开枪，当场3人毙命。今年汪洋执政，同样是WK爆发动乱，却能够在短时间内通过非暴力民主手段成功解决问题。

另外，政府有财政赤字是正常的，所有西方国家和日本都有财政赤字，目的就是通过福利来维稳，而用福利维稳是最有效的维稳方式。任何社会模式的最终目的是让人过的有基本保障，有尊严，有机会通过自己的智慧和努力改善自己的生活。薄熙来让重庆做到了，重庆也因此吸引了大量投资，最终这些钱会连本带利全部赚回来，而鼠目寸光的亲资政策只会吸引低素质的台巴子加工厂掠夺当地的资源和剥削当地劳动力（看看张德江在广东的行为就知道了）。

 

[SXNJ]

最重要的是财富分配。作为对比，可以看看张德江在广东时的成绩。2005年，WK时间第一次爆发，当时张德江出动武警维稳，局势失控后武警被唯独在发电厂内，被迫开枪，当场3人毙命。今年汪洋执政，同样是WK爆发动乱，却能够在短时间内通过非暴力民主手段成功解决问题。

另外，政府有财政赤字是正常的，所有西方国家和日本都有财政赤字，目的就是通过福利来维稳，而用福利维稳是最有效的维稳方式。任何社会模式的最终目的是让人过的有基本保障，有尊严，有机会通过自己的智慧和努力改善自己的生活。薄熙来让重庆做到了，重庆也因此吸引了大量投资，最终这些钱会连本带利全部赚回来，而鼠目寸光的亲资政策只会吸引低素质的台巴子加工厂掠夺当地的资源和剥削当地劳动力（看看张德江在广东的行为就知道了）。

张德江的过往事迹我不甚了解，所以也不便发表评论，这次北京调他去重庆我想也只是过渡，之前已有传闻称周强将入主重庆。
我在某种意义上赞同薄在重庆的所作所为，至少为今后的政治改革指明了一个思路和方向，但是对他本人我保留意见，如果他上台了对中国不是好事

 

[fly2012]

Destroying China's resources via the privatization is 100 times worse than the corruption.

That I have to agree. Corruption cause social unrest but economically not a major danger for China. People like Bo will make this much money regardless whether he is mayor or not. Gradually media transparency will make low level corruption harder and harder, and not worth the risk. Compare to most developing countries, corruption in China is kingdergarden. At least police doesn't stop you for bribe like you get in Mexico (and Mexico is a developed country).