China red-flags India’s entry into NSG, may push for Pakistan

[NaMaloom]

Lol
We dont need test nuke on real conditions not any more.
In fact no other powers are interested in nuke testing.

And fot us dream would becom reality.

No other powers are testing nuclear weapons because they already have tested their weapons hundreds of times. Indian nuclear devices tested = 6 and even those 6 tests were NOT conducted in 'real' conditions but under controlled environment. 'Real' conditions means war, the United States remains the only country to have used nuclear weapons in 'real' conditions'.

As for dream becoming reality, the UNSC seat is still a distant dream and so shall be the case with the NSG seat as well.

 

[deckingraj]

So then going by your logic, you disagree with all your fellow Indians here who have been accusing Pakistan of proliferating nuclear weapons tech since being an NPT signatory doesn't mean much anyways and in Pakistan's case, it never signed up to the NPT regime in the first place; therefore its rules do not apply to a non-signatory which are flouted by even the signatories.
So good to know you call a spade a spade by agreeing that neither A. Q. Khan nor Pakistan did anything wrong by sharing nuclear tech.

Wow!! are you into journalism ....if not then try that profession buddy because the kind of spin you have given to what i am saying is something to acknowledge..

Look moot point is world understand and acknowledge just one thing "Might is Right"...you want to be part of decision making then improve your profile or else just move with the wave...without elevating your profile and not playing rule of game you end up where unfortunately you are at this stage i.e. always need a big brother to keep the boat afloat...now coming to Pakistan and entry to NSG...unfortunately at this stage your geo-political status is as good as safe and secure American withdrawal from Afghanistan...rest you need to earn...hope i am clear..

 

[SrNair]

No other powers are testing nuclear weapons because they already have tested their weapons hundreds of times. Indian nuclear devices tested = 6 and even those 6 tests were NOT conducted in 'real' conditions but under controlled environment. 'Real' conditions means war, the United States remains the only country to have used nuclear weapons in 'real' conditions'.

As for dream becoming reality, the UNSC seat is still a distant dream and so shall be the case with the NSG seat as well.

UNSC will take time.
But I think NSG is almost confirmed.
If US move a resolution in NSG for our membership I think except China allothers will support us.An exception was Japan.But they are also convinced and want a relationwith us.



We have tech for nuke test simulation .So we dont need a test not anymore.

 

[NaMaloom]

Wow!! are you into journalism ....if not then try that profession buddy because the kind of spin you have given to what i am saying is something to acknowledge..

Look moot point is world understand and acknowledge just one thing "Might is Right"...you want to be part of decision making then improve your profile or else just move with the wave...without elevating your profile and not playing rule of game you end up where unfortunately you are at this stage i.e. always need a big brother to keep the boat afloat...now coming to Pakistan and entry to NSG...unfortunately at this stage your geo-political status is as good as safe and secure American withdrawal from Afghanistan...rest you need to earn...hope i am clear..

So you are assuming China is not being big brother to Pakistan just like Uncle Sam is being with India to contain China? You are suggesting in some naive way that Pakistan's geo-political status is so bad that you cannot understand how such a country was able to get nearly $30bil from the United States during the WoT and still remain in Chinese camp - something even the Indians couldn't pull off given their current cool-off in relations with Putin's maniacal Russia.

You are also saying that somehow American cosying up to India with nuclear deals, etc is about India's 'elevated profile' & 'good behavior' and not about America's own national interests of containing China which has pushed aggressively in the South China sea territories - where things have become very edgy with crucial American allies South Korea and Japan, not to mention the Philippines, Vietnam and others.

India's entry to the NSG is as good as pure premature jubilation just like India's permanent seat at UNSC talk a few years ago. Just like China blocked India at the UNSC, it will do so with NSG as well, atleast until India signs on to the NPT.

 

[nik22]

So good to know you call a spade a spade by agreeing that neither A. Q. Khan nor Pakistan did anything wrong by sharing nuclear tech.

Calm down buddy! I guess you are getting excited
I get your point that Pakistan did not break rules as it is not signatory to NPT. Other countries in past have also helped their allies with Nuclear Technology. Despite knowing that, it does not make any difference. Pakistan is not going to say because a powerful country did that, so did we.

The way I see it. NSG and such groups are exclusive groups. What does Group and its member gain by including Pakistan? Sorry to say, Pakistan is currently in trouble. Economy is weak, terrorism all over country. Does any country want to be seen as friend of Pakistan? No (except China, you know the reason why China does that).

Pakistan does not have allies or economic clout to get support

 

[utraash]

So you're saying trying to get a permanent seat at the UNSC with China sitting there already is not about seeking parity? Wow! Try fooling someone else or perhaps you are oblivious to your own naivety. As for 'feet on the ground', India trying to send probes to Mars before China is not about jumping high to one-up China in the Asian space race? How many more examples would you like me to give you to show just how desperate India is day-in and day-out to reach parity with China?




So then going by your logic, you disagree with all your fellow Indians here who have been accusing Pakistan of proliferating nuclear weapons tech since being an NPT signatory doesn't mean much anyways and in Pakistan's case, it never signed up to the NPT regime in the first place; therefore its rules do not apply to a non-signatory which are flouted by even the signatories.

So good to know you call a spade a spade by agreeing that neither A. Q. Khan nor Pakistan did anything wrong by sharing nuclear tech.

We are not here to race with China though in healthy competition .... We have our geopolitical ambitions so we are aspiring to get the membership in both body n where the china comes in pictures.... For Pakistanis the only defiance they can import is bringing China into everything.....

 

[NaMaloom]

UNSC will take time.
But I think NSG is almost confirmed. If US move a resolution in NSG for our membership I think except China all others will support us. An exception was Japan.But they are also convinced and want a relationwith us.

We have tech for nuke test simulation .So we dont need a test not anymore.

WRONG. At the last meeting of NSG in Buenos Aires the entire NSG camp was divided roughly 50/50 over whether to forge closer ties with India, let alone a full membership. NSG allows new members in on a consensus based decision making which means China practically holds a veto over Indian membership so goodluck with that!

We are not here to race with China though in healthy competition .... We have our geopolitical ambitions so we are aspiring to get the membership in both body n where the china comes in pictures.... For Pakistanis the only defiance they can import is bringing China into everything.....

So you are using the term 'healthy competition' to basically say 'we want to be seen as equals of China' which is the same as seeking 'parity' of which you accuse Pakistan with regards to India. And you're saying Pakistan does not have geopolitical ambitions, only India does? Typical Indian thinking - throw stones at others while sitting in a glass box.

Calm down buddy! I guess you are getting excited
I get your point that Pakistan did not break rules as it is not signatory to NPT. Other countries in past have also helped their allies with Nuclear Technology. Despite knowing that, it does not make any difference. Pakistan is not going to say because a powerful country did that, so did we.

The way I see it. NSG and such groups are exclusive groups. What does Group and its member gain by including Pakistan? Sorry to say, Pakistan is currently in trouble. Economy is weak, terrorism all over country. Does any country want to be seen as friend of Pakistan? No (except China, you know the reason why China does that).

Pakistan does not have allies or economic clout to get support

So you're assuming that the NSG gains nothing by allowing Pakistan to join, one of which would be gaining a market of 180mil people where energy needs are dire and nuclear plants built with NSG know how and safeguards to cater to those energy needs would bring sorely needed jobs and moolah to a world still nursing its 2008 recession wounds. And you're assuming that allowing India in and keeping Pakistan out would not COST the NSG anything in terms of the organization's own credibility, the erosion of the effectiveness of NPT just to name a couple of things.

The way I see it, Pakistan seems to have quite a few allies. You saying it does not, doesn't make it so. After all, Pakistan is a MNNA ally of the United States; practically China's Israel as Chinese officials acknowledge themselves, Saudi Arabia's only close buddy after the GCC in terms of Sunni Islam's extremely important country WITH nuclear weapons. I could go on and on. But its ok, I won't fault you on your weak understanding of the diplomatic world.

 

[mike2000]

Actually, India want to have good relations with our neighbors. However they have a long term anti India design. Both are rogue country with a little control of civilian government on army. When India starts improving relationship with Pakistan, their army creates an atmosphere of conflict and distrust. We witnessed the same in Xi's visit forcing India to strengthening the tie with other country in India's strategic interest. Now, when India does that (Like every other country do), they find it difficult to digest and react in a manner which is not very decent. We as a nation have all the right to choose our friend and ally. We want to have you as the friends too but you have a sin in your stomach. You neither want to have a friendship with us nor you want us to have a friendship somewhere else. We know your design very well and know what to do to counter that. Pakistan is on its way of self-destruction and we are taking necessary step to show china its proper place. Indian ocean is ours so as subcontinent. We shall ensure that nobody else dominate that.

Indian ocean and sub continent is yours? Reminds me of another 'aggressive hegemon' saying south China sea is theirs. Lol. The U.S Diego Garcia base there is meant to make sure that doesnt happen I'm afraid.

Coming to topic, i don't see why India shouldn't be allowed to join the NSG, as far as it signs the NPT, there shouldn't be any problem, india is a big country and upcoming power, so it needs to be included in such organisations. The Big 5 (plus Germany) ought to allow India in provided india meets the requirements (which I think it does, bar signing the NPT). My 2 cents

 

[nik22]

So you're assuming that the NSG gains nothing by allowing Pakistan to join, one of which would be gaining a market of 180mil people where energy needs are dire and nuclear plants built with NSG know how and safeguards to cater to those energy needs would bring sorely needed jobs and moolah to a world still nursing its 2008 recession wounds. And you're assuming that allowing India in and keeping Pakistan out would not COST the NSG anything in terms of the organization's own credibility, the erosion of the effectiveness of NPT just to name a couple of things.

The way I see it, Pakistan seems to have quite a few allies. You saying it does not, doesn't make it so. After all, Pakistan is a MNNA ally of the United States; practically China's Israel as Chinese officials acknowledge themselves, Saudi Arabia's only close buddy after the GCC in terms of Sunni Islam's extremely important country WITH nuclear weapons. I could go on and on. But its ok, I won't fault you on your weak understanding of the diplomatic world.

You refuse to see reality. No problem! Does not matter to me. I am just going to make one more post.

Does Pakistan has money to pay for fancy toys it want because neighbor is getting it?

Don't give BS on credibility. You imply you have a good understanding of diplomatic world. That show reality of you.

Allies: America pays( reimburse) for your effort in fight against terrorism. America embarass Pak by continuously reminding about safe heavens and terrorism. Great you have such ally!

Pakistan is like a pawn nation of Saudi and China. Saudi can do anything they want. For ex: exclusive airports for them. Same is going to happen with China. Gilgit and area would be pawned to Chinese.

Keep living in your fairy tales

 

[utraash]

WRONG. At the last meeting of NSG in Buenos Aires the entire NSG camp was divided roughly 50/50 over whether to forge closer ties with India, let alone a full membership. NSG allows new members in on a consensus based decision making which means China practically holds a veto over Indian membership so goodluck with that!




So you are using the term 'healthy competition' to basically say 'we want to be seen as equals of China' which is the same as seeking 'parity' of which you accuse Pakistan with regards to India. And you're saying Pakistan does not have geopolitical ambitions, only India does? Typical Indian thinking - throw stones at others while sitting in a glass box.




So you're assuming that the NSG gains nothing by allowing Pakistan to join, one of which would be gaining a market of 180mil people where energy needs are dire and nuclear plants built with NSG know how and safeguards to cater to those energy needs would bring sorely needed jobs and moolah to a world still nursing its 2008 recession wounds. And you're assuming that allowing India in and keeping Pakistan out would not COST the NSG anything in terms of the organization's own credibility, the erosion of the effectiveness of NPT just to name a couple of things.

The way I see it, Pakistan seems to have quite a few allies. You saying it does not, doesn't make it so. After all, Pakistan is a MNNA ally of the United States; practically China's Israel as Chinese officials acknowledge themselves, Saudi Arabia's only close buddy after the GCC in terms of Sunni Islam's extremely important country WITH nuclear weapons. I could go on and on. But its ok, I won't fault you on your weak understanding of the diplomatic world.

I concede that Pakistan is powerhouse of world that everything revolves around it ...... Healthy competition doesn't mean sending mercenaries... Healthy competition means in terms of mostly in economic development n catching up new opportunities.....
Pakistan can harbour any ambition but who give damn about Pakistan except arab world n china whereas India has many voice in support of pursuing her ambition.....
Rest you can cry a ocean like a typical Pakistani over losing Pakistan relevance in todays time .....

 

[Raphael]

The world must renounce discrimination by treating India and Pakistan as equals. Either they both join or neither joins. I think they would both make good additions, given that they have considerable prowess and interest in civilian nuclear power. But in the interest of fairness, if one joins, the other must accompany.

 

[ares]

The world must renounce discrimination by treating India and Pakistan as equals. Either they both join or neither joins. I think they would both make good additions, given that they have considerable prowess and interest in civilian nuclear power. But in the interest of fairness, if one joins, the other must accompany.

The fact is world does not see India-Pakistan as equals.

Indian economy is ten times the size of Pakistan's.

Indian has second largest population in the world.

India has spotless Non-proliferation record, whereas Pakistan has proliferated nuclear know how to Libya, Iran and North Korea.

NSG does not trust pakistan with a civilian nuclear deal, where as India got an unanimous approval.

Only Chinese supply Pakistan with nuclear reactors, but then Chinese never cared much for nuclear non proliferation, even not when Pakistani supplied North Korea with nuclear centrifuges and created another Nuclear armed nation in Chinese neighborhood.

 

[deckingraj]

@NaMaloom you are all over my friend... Please give me benefit of doubt and consider me as someone who is not here to troll...now let's go point by point..

So you are assuming China is not being big brother to Pakistan just like Uncle Sam is being with India to contain China?

I was actually saying that if you don't raise your profile and neither follow the wave then you are bound to be in a situation where you would always need a big brother...it used to be USA for Pakistan and now you are moving towards China...

You are suggesting in some naive way that Pakistan's geo-political status is so bad that you cannot understand how such a country was able to get nearly $30bil from the United States during the WoT and still remain in Chinese camp - something even the Indians couldn't pull off given their current cool-off in relations with Putin's maniacal Russia.

It is true that Pakistan geo-political status is actually very bad(at this stage)...It is quiet logical as well...Double games pay you only to a level...and it is a myth that you are in Chinese camp....Like any other country you are trying to balance relations b/w West and China however given Pakistan internal turmoil and all the terror related bad news flowing on every day basis it is anyone's guess...Please note whatever leverage you have regarding west is related to America's safe exit from Afghanistan...no?? I will not derail the argument with telling you what all have India pulled off, so let's leave it there...

You are also saying that somehow American cosying up to India with nuclear deals, etc is about India's 'elevated profile' & 'good behavior' and not about America's own national interests of containing China which has pushed aggressively in the South China sea territories - where things have become very edgy with crucial American allies South Korea and Japan, not to mention the Philippines, Vietnam and others.

This means you are not reading my messages properly...South China issue is not a new phenomenon...it was same even during UPA II(2009-2014) however India-US relations were going down the drain...think about it, why?? Answer is simple...Indian growth story was a downhill phenomenon then...Also please note..it is always about National interests...it is true for India-Russia, India-US, China-Pakistan and everyone else...there is no such thing called "free lunch"...

India's entry to the NSG is as good as pure premature jubilation just like India's permanent seat at UNSC talk a few years ago. Just like China blocked India at the UNSC, it will do so with NSG as well, atleast until India signs on to the NPT.

Look, no body is claiming an overnight entry anyways...We did get a waiver from the same group for our civilian nuclear deals, right? Pakistan was asking for same then....All weather Friendship with China was there and South China sea was an issue even then...In short dynamics of geo-politics was pretty much same...so can you please enlighten me if this was not due to geo-political status that India got the deal but Pakistan is still asking for it then what could be a possible explanation??

 

[SrNair]

WRONG. At the last meeting of NSG in Buenos Aires the entire NSG camp was divided roughly 50/50 over whether to forge closer ties with India, let alone a full membership. NSG allows new members in on a consensus based decision making which means China practically holds a veto over Indian membership so goodluck with that!




So you are using the term 'healthy competition' to basically say 'we want to be seen as equals of China' which is the same as seeking 'parity' of which you accuse Pakistan with regards to India. And you're saying Pakistan does not have geopolitical ambitions, only India does? Typical Indian thinking - throw stones at others while sitting in a glass box.




So you're assuming that the NSG gains nothing by allowing Pakistan to join, one of which would be gaining a market of 180mil people where energy needs are dire and nuclear plants built with NSG know how and safeguards to cater to those energy needs would bring sorely needed jobs and moolah to a world still nursing its 2008 recession wounds. And you're assuming that allowing India in and keeping Pakistan out would not COST the NSG anything in terms of the organization's own credibility, the erosion of the effectiveness of NPT just to name a couple of things.

The way I see it, Pakistan seems to have quite a few allies. You saying it does not, doesn't make it so. After all, Pakistan is a MNNA ally of the United States; practically China's Israel as Chinese officials acknowledge themselves, Saudi Arabia's only close buddy after the GCC in terms of Sunni Islam's extremely important country WITH nuclear weapons. I could go on and on. But its ok, I won't fault you on your weak understanding of the diplomatic world.

Well I dont think so.There was a lot of difference between last time and Now.
And after all our power is growing day by day.
I think with in few years a stage will come where India is necessary for world security.

And at that time if China is stry to oppose they will isolate .After all we are the largest democracy in this world.While China is still a dictator.Hell of thedifference.
If you have power then things will come on your way.Or might is right

 

[Raphael]

The fact is world does not see India-Pakistan as equals.

Indian economy is ten times the size of Pakistan's.

Indian has second largest population in the world.

That hardly seems fair. You seem to believe only big countries, not small countries, and only powerful countries, not weak countries, should have a seat on these multilateral institutions. That kind of discriminatory mentality exposes that you fundamentally misunderstand the purpose of membership. NSG membership is a responsibility, not a trophy to taunt others with.

India has spotless Non-proliferation record, whereas Pakistan has proliferated nuclear know how to Libya, Iran and North Korea.

The fact that India itself, in contravention to the NPT, has nuclear weapons already shows that Indian proliferation has gone too far. Exactly why does India have more right to nuclear weapons than North Korea, Iran, or Libya? Is it because India's size or population or economy accords it special entitlements? Is it because you view India as a Brahmin country, and others as Dalits?