China ranks first worldwide in PV power capacity

[kadamba-warrior]

If the panels are transparent, it means they are not really "catching" solar energy so the efficient would be very low. I would say if the solar cell can be made to replace the composite roofing tiles that we see in the states, who needs the grid?

You really don't need very high-efficiency panels when you are spreading them over large agricultural farms - considering that there are literally billions of acres of farm land available for this purpose.

Not just because of limitation of transparent panels, but also because you need some sun light passing through to the plants below too. Could work in tropical and desert countries that get long hours of intense sunlight. With the added benefit of reducing a fraction of evaporation of moisture from the soil below (because it is partly sheltered).

The roofing materials are already being replaced with PV materials but there's no significant additional benefit compared to 'regular' PV panels. Except perhaps aesthetics and less leaking roofs during rains.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

LOL

Europe wanted to completely eliminate the Chinese solar power industry because Europe wanted their companies to dominate the solar industry. Europe saw that Chinese solar companies rely on the European market to survive because the domestic Chinese market is too small.

China saw this and expanded the domestic solar capacity in China which will not only help China's solar companies but help also help reduce air pollution. Chinese solar companies no longer need to rely on the European market to survive.

The efficient solar companies changed their strategy to succeed in the domestic Chinese market.

Europe's strategy to use its market size to kill off the solar industry in China backfired. Now Chinese solar companies will grow using the domestic market and expand overseas and compete with European solar companies in foreign markets.

China has done this with smartphones, home appliances, high-speed trains, construction equipment, etc. Nurture domestic brands using China's vast consumer market to survive and once they grow to a certain size and sophistication, they can expand into foreign markets to win market share and compete with foreign companies.

If Chinese brands depend on foreign markets for their very survival, that puts them at risk of trade protectionism in those markets which means the chances of Chinese brands emerging on the global scene are slim.

European solar is already on life support. The only real players now with any potential for introducing 3rd generation devices are in US and China.

The real breakthrough will be when Solar farms are adapted to share land with Agricultural farms - using transparent/translucent panels on large scales!

But as a first step, all windows facing Sun need to be replaced with transparent solar panels. Using only roofs for solar panels is not enough anymore!

This fully transparent solar cell could make every window and screen a power source (updated) | ExtremeTech

for solar you can go either high end, or low end. High end is for mobile power applications where nothing else will do because refueling is hard or impossible, such as mountain observatories, satellites, etc. This is mostly high quality epitaxial GaAs/AlGaAs/InGaAs multijunction cells which can achieve >40% efficiency but are very expensive. However, because nothing else will work, these will always have a market.

Then you move down to the mid-range stuff, which is silicon at around 20% efficiency, higher for monocrystalline, lower for polycrystalline. These are moderately efficient and moderately expensive. The major limitations are vacuum processing, batch production and high temperatures required. Amorphous silicon eliminates the high temperature and one day could eliminate batch processing but is fundamentally limited.

For lower end stuff, you have alot of competitors that are striving to reach at least 10%-15% efficiency for a fraction of the cost of pure silicon devices, including organic semiconductors, quantum dots and alot of exotic compound semiconductors. These can be used in combination with silicon (hybrid devices) or in their own devices. One commercial technology is CdTe thin film cells. The key for these technologies is roll to roll processing, solution processing and low temperature while keeping high yields, high device performance and lifetime at least comparable to silicon.

 

[Audio]

LOL

Europe wanted to completely eliminate the Chinese solar power industry because Europe wanted their companies to dominate the solar industry. Europe saw that Chinese solar companies rely on the European market to survive because the domestic Chinese market is too small.

China saw this and expanded the domestic solar capacity in China which will not only help China's solar companies but help also help reduce air pollution. Chinese solar companies no longer need to rely on the European market to survive.

The efficient solar companies changed their strategy to succeed in the domestic Chinese market.

Europe's strategy to use its market size to kill off the solar industry in China backfired. Now Chinese solar companies will grow using the domestic market and expand overseas and compete with European solar companies in foreign markets.

China has done this with smartphones, home appliances, high-speed trains, construction equipment, etc. Nurture domestic brands using China's vast consumer market to survive and once they grow to a certain size and sophistication, they can expand into foreign markets to win market share and compete with foreign companies.

If Chinese brands depend on foreign markets for their very survival, that puts them at risk of trade protectionism in those markets which means the chances of Chinese brands emerging on the global scene are slim.

You are repeating yourself. It's not sounding smarter now as it did the first time, with the same stale scent of repetitiveness you have also managed to retain the same liars' story as to why Europe did what and why China did what.

I suppose it's a feel good story you need to recite for nickles so as to make the WTO ruling seem fair.

European solar is already on life support. The only real players now with any potential for introducing 3rd generation devices are in US and China.

The EU solar industry was non profitable from the start (ie can't compete w/o .gov help). I suspect the ones in US and China too. It is no problem giving away a dead-end technology, with promises of fusion around the corner.

Jobs are lost true, but on the other hand, this is not any sort of specialist job, anyone can do it....from manufacturing to installing, it's i assume quite an easy task. Meanwhile, Airbus has over a 1000 well paid job vacancies with who knows how many in the background doing contracting work for these 1000 when they get filled.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Jobs are lost true, but on the other hand, this is not any sort of specialist job, anyone can do it....from manufacturing to installing, it's i assume quite an easy task. Meanwhile, Airbus has over a 1000 well paid job vacancies with who knows how many in the background doing contracting work for these 1000 when they get filled.

Fusion is the energy of 30 years later and has been since 30 years ago. Even if fusion becomes sufficient for power self sufficiency, it will still be extremely bulky.

Photovoltaics process control and device design is most definitely a specialist job for semiconductor engineers. The actual manufacture of the cells doesn't require much manual labor just like manufacturing of chips and memory requires little manual labor. There's a reason why both the US and China invest massive amounts of money into photovoltaics. It is not out of a misguided sense to be "green" like in Europe, because sentiments fade fast in the face of reality. It is a conscious and strategic choice.

If the panels are transparent, it means they are not really "catching" solar energy so the efficient would be very low. I would say if the solar cell can be made to replace the composite roofing tiles that we see in the states, who needs the grid?

the grid is important for industry. Residential use is actually a minority of electricity consumption.

Transparent panels can work if they are very low cost, but it brings into question the materials used. In such a case you need a transparent substrate and a transparent top contact.

 

[Audio]

Fusion is the energy of 30 years later and has been since 30 years ago. Even if fusion becomes sufficient for power self sufficiency, it will still be extremely bulky.

It will take off now.

Photovoltaics process control and device design is most definitely a specialist job for semiconductor engineers. The actual manufacture of the cells doesn't require much manual labor just like manufacturing of chips and memory requires little manual labor. There's a reason why both the US and China invest massive amounts of money into photovoltaics. It is not out of a misguided sense to be "green" like in Europe, because sentiments fade fast in the face of reality. It is a conscious and strategic choice.

Oh please....Americans just wanted to not be behind the "green fad" (evident now with the Tesla hype, where cars catch flames, get unreliable after a month but still market's largest company by stock valuation despite the fact it can make as much cars in one year as GM makes in 3 days) and China will do anything to make a buck plus it looks good on war on pollution. Strategic decisions? please...

New trend is biomass now.

 

[Economic superpower]

You are repeating yourself. It's not sounding smarter now as it did the first time, with the same stale scent of repetitiveness you have also managed to retain the same liars' story as to why Europe did what and why China did what.

I suppose it's a feel good story you need to recite for nickles so as to make the WTO ruling seem fair.

I am trying to make it as simple as possible so that you can understand. I might have to repeat it again since your ability to understand is extremely limited

I've already said why Europe did what it did. And I've already said why China did what it did which was to counter European protectionism.

Bottom line is that China has a solar industry which can rely on its domestic market.

 

[Audio]

I am trying to make it as simple as possible so that you can understand. I might have to repeat it again since your ability to understand is extremely limited

I've already said why Europe did what it did. And I've already said why China did what it did which was to counter European protectionism.

Yes, but what you've said is wrong and when told so by me, you went to repeat as if that will drive the point home.

Bottom line is that China has a solar industry which can rely on its domestic market.

No, no, it's the other way around, solar industry has China on which it can rely. As evident from yet another manufacturer to run to .gov's loving, subsidy providing embrace

Too big to fail? Yingli confirms debt restructuring: pv-magazine

 

[antonius123]

They can compete with fossil in niche environments such as Hawaii where transport of fossil fuels lead to extremely high prices. The cost will only decrease if you consider the following facts: 1. fossil is non-renewable 2. the price for solar depends only on materials and processes used, which are improving at all times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/b...-win-on-price-vs-conventional-fuels.html?_r=0

Also, defective panels are part of the manufacturing process. I actually work in photovoltaics and semiconductor physics research. Just like there are defects in every single semiconductor device, the key parameter here is the yield per batch and the price per batch. What you are refering to here is not even the semiconductor component but problems with the GLASS, which is provided by outside suppliers who aren't even the device manufacturers. It'll be like blaming Intel for defective products made by their suppliers at Dow.

OK. So why you consider the chinese solar is the best in term of sophistication?

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

OK. So why you consider the chinese solar is the best in term of sophistication?

First, you must realize that Korea and Japan are essentially non-players in solar. There are almost zero (0) companies from these 2 countries involved in solar and none of them are competitive with global leaders in either technology or cost. They may have certain small advantages, but not enough to make them market leaders.

1. Production: https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/de/do...hotovoltaics-report-in-englischer-sprache.pdf

China/Taiwan account for 69% of global production. Taking note of the companies involved, the bulk of this 69% is in mainland China.

2. Research: China is the #1 or #2 (behind only the US) publisher in scientific literature related to renewable energy and related fields including physical chemistry, solid state physics and semiconductors in the past 20 years. For the past few years China has been the #1 publisher in most of these fields.

SJR - International Science Ranking

SJR - International Science Ranking

SJR - International Science Ranking

SJR - International Science Ranking

SJR - International Science Ranking

3. Market: This I need not say too much.

 

[antonius123]

Thank you. But I think that is biased justification:

First, you must realize that Korea and Japan are essentially non-players in solar. There are almost zero (0) companies from these 2 countries involved in solar and none of them are competitive with global leaders in either technology or cost. They may have certain small advantages, but not enough to make them market leaders.

1. Production: https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/de/do...hotovoltaics-report-in-englischer-sprache.pdf

Panasonic Quickly Beats SolarCity's Solar Module Efficiency Record | CleanTechnica

China/Taiwan account for 69% of global production. Taking note of the companies involved, the bulk of this 69% is in mainland China.

Global production is not an objective measurement of sophistication / technology level.

Efficiency, Quality, Performance, patents is.

2. Research: China is the #1 or #2 (behind only the US) publisher in scientific literature related to renewable energy and related fields including physical chemistry, solid state physics and semiconductors in the past 20 years. For the past few years China has been the #1 publisher in most of these fields.

SJR - International Science Ranking

SJR - International Science Ranking

SJR - International Science Ranking

SJR - International Science Ranking

SJR - International Science Ranking

3. Market: This I need not say too much.

Scientific literature is not an objective measurement of technology of the products.

 

[Economic superpower]

Yes, but what you've said is wrong and when told so by me, you went to repeat as if that will drive the point home.



No, no, it's the other way around, solar industry has China on which it can rely. As evident from yet another manufacturer to run to .gov's loving, subsidy providing embrace

Too big to fail? Yingli confirms debt restructuring: pv-magazine

What I've said is 100% correct. You pretend you can't understand because you're too humiliated to admit I'm right. YOU are wrong.

Chinese solar market is now the largest in the world so solar companies that can provide solar panels that are technologically advanced at an affordable cost will succeed. The inefficient companies will go bankrupt and others like Yingli will restructure their debt and emerge as a leaner and more efficient company.

This is about the size of the market.

Chinese solar companies do not need to rely on the European market to survive because the Chinese solar market is now the largest in the world. Just like Chinese smartphones companies, home appliance companies, automobile companies can survive and grow big by relying on the domestic Chinese market without needing foreign markets to survive.

China is doing to the solar industry what it did to every other industry to develop domestic brands in each industry by relying on the domestic market intially and using it as a launch pad to expand into foreign markets. China is doing the same thing in the electric vehicle sector.

Thank you. But I think that is biased justification:





Panasonic Quickly Beats SolarCity's Solar Module Efficiency Record | CleanTechnica





Global production is not an objective measurement of sophistication / technology level.

Efficiency, Quality, Performance, patents is.





Scientific literature is not an objective measurement of technology of the products.

LMAO you accusing others of biased justification.

You've been incessantly talking about a promotional technology like OLED and using that to brag how Korea is so far ahead of China in display technology.

I'm still waiting for your 13 industries.

 

[Audio]

What I've said is 100% correct. You pretend you can't understand because you're too humiliated to admit I'm right. YOU are wrong.

Chinese solar market is now the largest in the world so solar companies that can provide solar panels that are technologically advanced at an affordable cost will succeed. The inefficient companies will go bankrupt and others like Yingli will restructure their debt and emerge as a leaner and more efficient company.

This is about the size of the market.

Chinese solar companies do not need to rely on the European market to survive because the Chinese solar market is now the largest in the world. Just like Chinese smartphones companies, home appliance companies, automobile companies can survive and grow big by relying on the domestic Chinese market without needing foreign markets to survive.

China is doing to the solar industry what it did to every other industry to develop domestic brands in each industry by relying on the domestic market intially and using it as a launch pad to expand into foreign markets. China is doing the same thing in the electric vehicle sector.

You're repeating yourself with paragraphs that bare no importance to what i am saying.

You were saying Chinese companies got harrased in Germany as if there was no reason, while the reason was Chinese price dumping, on which China has agreed, but has so far not honored it's word as the case has been reopened again.
This has no relevance with Chinese internal market dynamics to which you dedicate 95% of your posts. Do you even have a cursory grasp of English?

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

I would say if the solar cell can be made to replace the composite roofing tiles that we see in the states, who needs the grid?

They already have solar shingles. I can see it being a standard in the future as many people (like myself) refuse to put heavy ugly solar panels on their homes.

The other problem is many densely populated areas are at a latitude that is not the best for solar panels. If we all lived in the South more people would be buying.

 

[antonius123]

LMAO you accusing others of biased justification.

I attach with argument. Why dont you have a look and reply.

You've been incessantly talking about a promotional technology like OLED and using that to brag how Korea is so far ahead of China in display technology.

I'm still waiting for your 13 industries.

You repost as usual. I have answered it in post 384

The one who can only claim from thin air without proof is you.

I have proved Korea excel China in some areas of technology (Display, Semiconductor, Medical, Automotive, etc). Those are enough to prove that what KIET says is reliable enough.

It is time for you to prove the other way round, if you dont agree with what KIET say, and I am still waiting until today.

Remember you failed to prove that China ahead Korea in PC etc.

Source: China rapidly narrows technology gap with S. Korea | Page 26

 

[Economic superpower]

You're repeating yourself with paragraphs that bare no importance to what i am saying.

You were saying Chinese companies got harrased in Germany as if there was no reason, while the reason was Chinese price dumping, on which China has agreed, but has so far not honored it's word as the case has been reopened again.
This has no relevance with Chinese internal market dynamics to which you dedicate 95% of your posts. Do you even have a cursory grasp of English?

Europe kicked out Chinese solar companies because it didn't want Chinese brands giving competition to and replacing European brands. Europe didn't think Chinese brands could compete with European brands but Chinese brands sold advanced solar panels at an affordable price and took away market share from European brands. This angered Europe and brought a BS claim to WTO and the biased WTO committee discriminated against China. It's trade protectionism, plain and simple.

Chinese bargaining power was limited because China's own solar market was small back then so it had no choice but accept the thuggish demands of Europe.

China thus realised it needs to develop its own solar market so it's companies can rely on the domestic market instead of foreign market.