China/Pakistan/India - Was Nehru smarter than Modi?

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

What a silly thread.

Nehru comes from the generation of Anti-Colonialism

Modi is in the generation of Liberalization.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

if china start firing on our borders, our response will be same. We don't discriminate between any nation

Like I said, China has had no cross-border bloodshed for over 30 years.

We use water cannons and tents, nobody dies. You guys use bullets and artillery on civilian villages across your LOC, not to mention the reports of soldiers being beheaded and their bodies mutilated. Or kids from Bangladesh hanging from border fences with bullet holes from your BSF, or cattle traders with the same.

The reason we don't use lethal means, is because of our official policy of "China's peaceful rise", which has ensured no cross-border bloodshed in the past 30 years.

But of course that doesn't mean we won't respond, and a cross-border firing by Modi will be like Nehru's Forward Policy x 10, and a much stupider one considering that the Indian Army has already admitted they have no chance of matching China, "and the gap is growing larger every year".

And if Pakistan would join us in our response this time (Ayub Khan rejected our offer in favor of a joint-defence with India back then), that would be a very welcome bonus, and help them achieve their objectives while letting us do the heavy fighting.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Similarly, when I look at India, well you guys have cross-border bloodshed all the time, on both the Pakistan and Bangladesh borders. Just a few days ago 20 civilians were killed, and even actual soldiers get beheaded, and their bodied mutilated there. Forget soldiers, even cattle traders and civilians get killed regularly on those borders. Instead of water cannons and tents, you guys use artillery/mortar and bullets.
Being a responsible state is a perception that people have of their own country, it is very much subjective depending on the viewpoint. And for the people on the other side of Modi's "new aggressive posture", the opinions might be the opposite.

i. Our response to rogue states and civilized states are different and will continue to remain so.

ii. India has a very openly free (which sometimes gets irritating/funny/embarassing) media. So when illegal immigrants and smugglers(as you call cattle traders and civilians) are shot, it gets reported right away. There is no filtering process here.

iii. Indo Bangladesh border is completely quiet, except for smuggling operations. I don't think any civilized state would treat smugglers any better. China has stricter controls in place anyway.

iv. Beheadings were not done by India. In fact Indian soldiers got beheaded by elements of a rogue state. Blaming India for retaliating to ISIS-like forces is not fair.

v. You should thank your stars for not having a hostile rogue state as your neighbor. Otherwise imagine trying to stop inflitration with water canons. Even then I am not even going to aggressive postures against Vietnam, Japan or the very own Tiananmen etc. You do what you feel is necessary. And we do likewise.

vi. The perception of India in the International stage is very positive. The UN's ignoring anti India resolutions is testament to the fact. China has also a reasonably good image, except that it's often seen as a bully if only an economic one.

In any case, your state knows the difference, and does not treat India as an enemy. The Islamist Indo/Hinduphobic genocidal wet dreams of riding the Dragon towards victory will remain a dream.

You guys use bullets and artillery on civilian villages across your LOC, not to mention the reports of soldiers being beheaded and their bodies mutilated. Or kids from Bangladesh hanging from border fences with bullet holes from your BSF, or cattle traders with the same.

Indian soldiers were beheaded by a rogue state. You need to check your sources again.

If India is fired upon by a responsible state, calls will go through proper channels. If fired upon by terrorists, India shall fire back. This is state policy.

Illegals and smugglers will continue to face Indian bullets. If someone wants, they are free to request transit for the illegals.

In any case - China has never protested against these Indian policies. Islamists have and will continue to do so. And their allies.

 

[AshishDelhi]

@SarthakGanguly you are trying to discuss based on facts and logic whereas think tank analysts @Chinese-Dragon is discussing based on his love for pakistan.
He will start saying that pakistan soldiers were beheaded as soon as some one from pakistan side says so.
If it happens in Xinjiang then it is terrorism and not to be discussed else where not so.

 

[Narashima]

Like I said, China has had no cross-border bloodshed for over 30 years.
We use water cannons and tents, nobody dies. You guys use bullets and artillery on civilian villages across your LOC, not to mention the reports of soldiers being beheaded and their bodies mutilated. Or kids from Bangladesh hanging from border fences with bullet holes from your BSF, or cattle traders with the same.
The reason we don't use lethal means, is because of our official policy of "China's peaceful rise", which has ensured no cross-border bloodshed in the past 30 years.
But of course that doesn't mean we won't respond, and a cross-border firing by Modi will be like Nehru's Forward Policy x 10, and a much stupider one considering that the Indian Army has already admitted they have no chance of matching China, "and the gap is growing larger every year".
And if Pakistan would join us in our response this time (Ayub Khan rejected our offer in favor of a joint-defence with India back then), that would be a very welcome bonus, and help them achieve their objectives while letting us do the heavy fighting

Stop acting like you are an angelic nation. If you look up at history most civil wars is from your own country, so don't tell me that chinese value life more than us and for our response against pakistan and bangladesh that's none of your buisness.

@SarthakGanguly you are trying to discuss based on facts and logic whereas think tank analysts @Chinese-Dragon is discussing based on his love for pakistan.
He will start saying that pakistan soldiers were beheaded as soon as some one from pakistan side says so.
If it happens in Xinjiang then it is terrorism and not to be discussed else where not so.

it's a new job CCP has given to him.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

i. Our response to rogue states and civilized states are different and will continue to remain so.

ii. India has a very openly free (which sometimes gets irritating/funny/embarassing) media. So when illegal immigrants and smugglers(as you call cattle traders and civilians) are shot, it gets reported right away. There is no filtering process here.

iii. Indo Bangladesh border is completely quiet, except for smuggling operations. I don't think any civilized state would treat smugglers any better. China has stricter controls in place anyway.

iv. Beheadings were not done by India. In fact Indian soldiers got beheaded by elements of a rogue state. Blaming India for retaliating to ISIS-like forces is not fair.

v. You should thank your stars for not having a hostile rogue state as your neighbor. Otherwise imagine trying to stop inflitration with water canons. Even then I am not even going to aggressive postures against Vietnam, Japan or the very own Tiananmen etc. You do what you feel is necessary. And we do likewise.

vi. The perception of India in the International stage is very positive. The UN's ignoring anti India resolutions is testament to the fact. China has also a reasonably good image, except that it's often seen as a bully if only an economic one.

In any case, your state knows the difference, and does not treat India as an enemy. The Islamist Indo/Hinduphobic genocidal wet dreams of riding the Dragon towards victory will remain a dream.


Indian soldiers were beheaded by a rogue state. You need to check your sources again.

If India is fired upon by a responsible state, calls will go through proper channels. If fired upon by terrorists, India shall fire back. This is state policy.

Illegals and smugglers will continue to face Indian bullets. If someone wants, they are free to request transit for the illegals.

In any case - China has never protested against these Indian policies. Islamists have and will continue to do so. And their allies.

Because those policies of shooting on the border at not aimed at us (yet). But Indian troops are so used to firing on the border, a new assertive posture from Modi would surely embolden them.

As for China's policy, every Chinese person knows that Xi Jinping's hold on the PLA is absolute, just search for the name "Xu Caihou" to see what I mean. For the record, he was the former second-in-command of the PLA, and now he has been expelled and is under serious investigations. Anyone who goes against Xi Jinping's leadership position in the PLA has had very little time to regret it, as we have already seen.

Indian claims that there is a "rogue element" within the PLA causing the border issues, just points back to the fact that Xi Jinping has the ultimate authority over the PLA, both in terms of position and in terms of fact. The CMC is filled with his supporters.

Anything they did was with Xi Jinping's full sanction.

 

[Narashima]

Because those policies of shooting on the border at not aimed at us (yet). But Indian troops are so used to firing on the border, a new assertive posture from Modi would surely embolden them.

Don't worry, we won't fire the first bullet.

 

[AshishDelhi]

Ok China is the most peaceful nation in the world. If india attacks then it will destroy india and pakistan will also help. Got this much.
Now will chinese verbal diarrhea stop now.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

@Chinese-Dragon - We have discussed it in detail. Modi has to satisfy the extremists who voted for him and want a war with Pakistan at least and want to 'man up' to China at the same time.

We can expect his bravado to repeat when he fails in economics and all of them fancy promises he has made. He cannot win a war against either state , let alone a two front war. His room to maneuver at this particular moment in history is limited to border skirmishes for which he will get a befitting response which won't again be in his favour as he won't be looking the tough prick he promises his extremist right wing supporters to be. Nehru didn't have hundreds of Nuclear and Thermonuclear warheads from China and Pakistan hanging over his head...Modi does!

Believe me, there are a lot of Chinese nationalists who are stung by the two absurd and contradictory claims: "China is a warmonger", followed by "Haha, China doesn't have enough fighting experience because they haven't fought a war for over 30 years!"

Completely contradictory, but some truth in the latter one. What's the point of spending such massive sums of money, building advanced military platforms, increasing our defence production to near the top of the world, if we don't use it to defend our sovereignty?

Modi looks like he wants to push, though I think if it comes to that, China will be the one doing most of the heavy work. Pakistan can pull half their army to the other border by taking an aggressive posture, and could maybe come in at the end, to handle the aftermath once the majority of the fighting is over.

It's safer to have a China-India fight than a India-Pakistan one, since both China and India have "No First Use" policies, and we have a staggering nuclear advantage over India (India's total arsenal is only about 1 megaton, compared to 4 megatons for ONE single Chinese thermonuclear weapon).

Nehru's Forward Policy was a mistake but it was a clever idea at its root, to take Chinese land without a fight, while we were dying from starvation. Modi on the other hand is facing a China at the very peak of our power in the last 200 years, our manufacturing capability alone could overwhelm them, since we can essentially produce infinite amounts of our own indigenous weapons platforms, backed by China's currency reserves which are larger than the rest of the world combined.

Due to our policy, we won't fire first, though in practically that is not really a problem if someone really wanted to start a conflict, especially with Modi's "new assertive posture".

 

[halupridol]

nookliaaaa waaaaa

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

nookliaaaa waaaaa

Sorry I don't know what that means?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

i. Our response to rogue states and civilized states are different and will continue to remain so.

I don't make a distinction between "rogue" states and "civilized" states. It's not my place to make such a declaration.

Anyway these are the ones considered to be Rogue states by America's declaration:

Rogue state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When America says "Oh the Axis of Evil are rogue states, we must sanction Iran/Syria/Iraq/etc." well that's not how it works for us.

If Iran sells oil to us and deals with us like a civilized state then to us, it is a civilized state. Same with everyone else, even those countries that have geopolitical interests which are in direct conflict with ours.

And these nation-states, being civilized actors, should theoretically act based on reason and logic. Just that some want to push their luck, believing strongly that they have made the right calculation, when they have not.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

@Chinese-Dragon . Just coz Pak dishes out BS, you don't immediately believe it. Hell even pak members here don't believe the 'unprovoked Indian attack' logic. There is an informal consensus here that Pak started it with the intention of 'internationalizing' Kashmir. If your 1st premise (India the aggressor) is wrong then everything else is equally wrong.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

@Chinese-Dragon . Just coz Pak dishes out BS, you don't immediately believe it. Hell even pak members here don't believe the 'unprovoked Indian attack' logic. There is an informal consensus here that Pak started it with the intention of 'internationalizing' Kashmir. If your 1st premise (India the aggressor) is wrong then everything else is equally wrong.

Did you read the first post, I am talking about this from Reuters:

"(Reuters) - However, military officers in both countries and officials in New Delhi say the violence that has killed nearly 20 civilians escalated because of a more assertive Indian posture under the new government of nationalist Prime Minister Narendra Modi."

Modi's bravado ups the ante in India-Pakistan fighting | Reuters

Reuters quoted from officials in BOTH New Delhi and Pakistan. They both agree, that the situation on India's borders is escalating because of the "new assertive posture" from Modi.

Those are not my words, those are the words of your officials, quoted by Reuters.

 

[Luca1]

It look like Modi will try to start a war with Pakistan? Watch for him to doom people of sub continent.