China-Pak nuclear deal: ‘India opened a Pandora’s box’

[Jazzbot]

What happens if US stops aid to pakistan can pakistan survive without US? respect uncle Sam neighbor.

tell you what dear, it happened several times with us already in the past, recently after 1998 nuk tests.. and for ur kind info Pakistan is still here, flourishing and rising.. To be honest we don't need US aid, i repeat Pakistan don't need any US aids, its our Bastard Politicians and leaders who are eating it all and begging for more just to increase their own bank balances..

Do you really think that all that aid is ever used at common Pakistani, apart from some military aids, which again comes under heavy restrictions and in the end our Nation has to pay a lot for this military aid and in the end we find our selves remained in bottom with "DO MORE"..

 

[Aslan]

tell you what dear, it happened several times with us already in the past, recently after 1998 nuk tests.. and for ur kind info Pakistan is still here, flourishing and rising.. To be honest we don't need US aid, i repeat Pakistan don't need any US aids, its our Bastard Politicians and leaders who are eating it all and begging for more just to increase their own bank balances..

Do you really think that all that aid is ever used at common Pakistani, apart from some military aids, which again comes under heavy restrictions and in the end our Nation has to pay a lot for this military aid and in the end we find our selves remained in bottom with "DO MORE"..

Sir Ji "andhay ko rang dikhayee kyun, or behray ko baja sunain kyun". May a times they have been explained what you are telling them now, koi faida nahi, they want to believe in what makes them happy. According to their logic Pakistan will disappear if the US pulls its hands from us.

 

[Dash]

Sir Ji "andhay ko rang dikhayee kyun, or behray ko baja sunain kyun". May a times they have been explained what you are telling them now, koi faida nahi, they want to believe in what makes them happy. According to their logic Pakistan will disappear if the US pulls its hands from us.

Trust me, an educated Indian will never want any country to disappear, remember we have faught togather for our own independence. We dont want anything against pakistan, however you guys are getting a taste of your own deeds.

Trust me blame your own politicians..
In soviet war of Afghanistan, US used you to defeat Russian. Created Taliban, now you are clearing up the mess.
Now Its China using you to defeat India, when the burden of US is still not gone. You will be used from one side and pressurized from other.

A very honest openion, no one is a friend of anyone here. What you can do here is develope your own abilities. US is doing it, China is doing is, India is doing it why not you?....

Start trying now before its too late. and to start that first you have to detach yourself from the clouts.

Who doesnt want a prosporous neighbour who you can trade with, both of us will get profit, even China and India have disputes today but China cant stop trading with India which is as big as multi billions in dollars. We both can do the same.

Start thinking logically now.

 

[T-Faz]

Trust me, an educated Indian will never want any country to disappear, remember we have faught togather for our own independence. We dont want anything against pakistan, however you guys are getting a taste of your own deeds.

There are not many of these educated Indians or are there, just by reading the comments of Indians on popular websites you can tell what their intentions are and the prevalent mindset.

Trust me blame your own politicians..
In soviet war of Afghanistan, US used you to defeat Russian. Created Taliban, now you are clearing up the mess.

We were in clear and present danger becuase of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, this invasion also allowed us to build our Nuclear program through the American funding meant for the Mujahideen.

1980s: Much US and Saudi Aid Meant for Afghan Fighters Goes to ISI and A. Q. Khan Network

Much of the billions of dollars in aid from Saudi Arabia and the CIA to the Afghan mujaheddin actually gets siphoned off by the Pakistani ISI. Melvin Goodman, a CIA analyst in the 1980s, will later say, “They were funding the wrong groups, and had little idea where the money was going or how it was being spent.” Sarkis Soghanalian, a middleman profiting from the aid, will later say, “The US did not want to get its hands dirty. So the Saudis’ money and the US money was handled by the ISI. I can tell you that more than three quarters of the money was skimmed off the top. What went to buy weapons for the Afghan fighters was peanuts.” Sognhanalian claims that most of the money went through various accounts held at the notoriously corrupt BCCI bank, then was distributed to the ISI and the A. Q. Khan nuclear network. [Trento, 2005, pp. 318] Robert Crowley, a CIA associate director from the 1960s until the 1980s, will also refer to the aid money going to Khan’s network, commenting, “Unfortunately, the Pakistanis knew exactly where their cut of the money was to go.” An early 1990s congressional investigation led by Sen. John Kerry (D-MA) will also come to the same conclusion. [Trento, 2005, pp. 314, 384]

June 1989: Pakistan Disappointed at End of US Aid over Nuclear Weapons Program

Pakistan is disappointed when Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto is told during a visit to Washington that the US will cut off foreign aid to her nation, because of its nuclear weapons program (see June 1989). This new US policy comes about shortly after the withdrawal of the Soviet military from neighboring Afghanistan (see February 15, 1989). A US official will later say: “The Paks understood us better than we understood ourselves… They knew that once the Soviets were whipped in Afghanistan we wouldn’t need them anymore. Would we unilaterally defend Pakistan? Never. Our relationship with Pakistan was to counter the Soviet-Indian relationship. The Pakistanis knew that time was limited. And that’s why they went balls out on the nuclear program.” [New Yorker, 3/29/1993]

Now Its China using you to defeat India, when the burden of US is still not gone. You will be used from one side and pressurized from other.

China is not using us, that is what you are told. We are well aware of what we have to do to ward off your hegemonic designs for South Asia.

A very honest openion, no one is a friend of anyone here. What you can do here is develope your own abilities. US is doing it, China is doing is, India is doing it why not you?....

We were developing it very well, we had high growth during the Musharraf years, we always performed better than you but in the 90's when sanctions were placed on us, we suffered as a consequence. But of course you would not admit to it and just bring in your own version that suits your standing.

Start trying now before its too late. and to start that first you have to detach yourself from the clouts.

Yes, India should detach itself from US and Russia. US just wants to use you to counter China, does your country want to be dependent on their business and support to continue your growth.

Who doesnt want a prosporous neighbour who you can trade with, both of us will get profit, even China and India have disputes today but China cant stop trading with India which is as big as multi billions in dollars. We both can do the same.

India does not want a prosperous neighbour, they want to see a weak submissive Pakistan and they try every dirty trick in the book to achieve it. Look at what Milton Bearden, a former C.I.A. station chief said about India.

“Until September 11th, they thought they’d won this thing—they had Pakistan on the ropes.” Because of its nuclear program, he said, “Pakistan was isolated and sanctioned by the United States, with only China left as an ally."

Every ten years Indians get happy that Pakistan will face its demise soon and they can move forward with their hegemony in the region. After USSR invaded, Indians were having wet dreams, after the Pressler Amendments sanctions, they were ecstatic as Bearden said. Recently the whole failed nation propaganda and the spillover of war made you people tremendously happy. Alas we salvaged ourselves and are still standing and returning to our high growth and development.

Start thinking logically now.

India should start thinking logically, it tried to hurt us through the WOT, supported the Balochistan separitists and played a dirty game to destabilise us. Now logic dictates that we should return the favor as and when we can, the game is about to get a whole lot worse for you.

This deal is just a start and look how paranoid your government is, they know what is in store and USA or NATO will not be around to help you. They do not care what happens in your country, they just want to use you as a counter weight to China so they remain at the top.

 

[Dash]

India should start thinking logically, it tried to hurt us through the WOT, supported the Balochistan separitists and played a dirty game to destabilise us. Now logic dictates that we should return the favor as and when we can, the game is about to get a whole lot worse for you.

T-Faz -
like you said, everybody frames it the way the want it means that your logic is not unique and carries less confidence in itself.

i will not go to further details. I gave a POV which was meant to help you, you started comparing yourself with us like you have always done.

and be assured that when you return the favor to us, it will be another diplomatic arrest for you.

I rest my point here....

GB

 

[T-Faz]

T-Faz -
like you said, everybody frames it the way the want it means that your logic is not unique and carries less confidence in itself.

i will not go to further details. I gave a POV which was meant to help you, you started comparing yourself with us like you have always done.

I rest my point here....

GB

I have no clue as to what merit your advise had and what it actually meant. Veiled insults are a common norm for many of your fellow country men and I do beleive that there is great satisfaction amongst Indians when they see something bad occuring.

I gave you sources, refrences and what not to counter the flawed advice you put forward. First of all you are not aware of our history, evident from when you said that US used us. Truthfully, it was the other way round, we got a lot in return but the blunder was in the hasty US withdrawal.

Your advice is not needed, we are well aware of our limitations and our own mistakes.

For some odd reason, Indians are quick to provide insufficient and uninformed advice as if they are running the greatest country known to man.

 

[Dash]

For some odd reason, Indians are quick to provide insufficient and uninformed advice as if they are running the greatest country known to man.

See neither you and nor I run our countries, may be you are an enlightened laurate there and I am an ill equipped hostorian on Pak matters. I will only say one day you rule your country to show the world how better a country could be run, which I know is almost not close in our proximity of thought power, our minds will have.

We are here to get suggestions on our own logics as a common man and so you. Its a debate and I cant dictate what norms your country will follow in future.

Most Indians give suggestions and Most pakistanis also give suggestions, its equal on both sides, as a common man does this. and they dont even know what their country is doing in persuit of prosperity, like any "developing (this should send you my acknowledgment that Iam not claiming my nation is the best)...

I gave you sources, refrences and what not to counter the flawed advice you put forward. First of all you are not aware of our history, evident from when you said that US used us. Truthfully, it was the other way round, we got a lot in return but the blunder was in the hasty US withdrawal

I was not against your nuclear deal with China I was just saying that India doesnt want to remove pak from world geography like somebody said here. but after I gave that..

You gave me this....look at the underlined part.

India should start thinking logically, it tried to hurt us through the WOT, supported the Balochistan separitists and played a dirty game to destabilise us. Now logic dictates that we should return the favor as and when we can, the game is about to get a whole lot worse for you.

So the debate was over then and whatever source you gave me then had zero credibility as this is not the way debates are held.

I will understand that you have taken me as another Indian. which is fine.

 

[T-Faz]

See neither you and nor I run our countries, may be you are an enlightened laurate there and I am an ill equipped hostorian on Pak matters. I will only say one day you rule your country to show the world how better a country could be run, which I know is almost not close in our proximity of thought power, our minds will have.

Whichever way we run it, it is only a matter for us to comprehend and facilitate progress about.

We are here to get suggestions on our own logics as a common man and so you. Its a debate and I cant dictate what norms your country will follow in future.

Debate does not turn into condenscending thoughts passed on through lack of information.

Most Indians give suggestions and Most pakistanis also give suggestions, its equal on both sides, as a common man does this. and they dont even know what their country is doing in persuit of prosperity, like any "developing (this should send you my acknowledgment that Iam not claiming my nation is the best)...

Suggestions should be grounded in reality and follow an informed approach. Your suggestion was ill informed and not in context with the current situation.

I was not against your nuclear deal with China I was just saying that India doesnt want to remove pak from world geography like somebody said here. but after I gave that..

He was speaking metaphorically in terms of Pakistan just become subservient and not at all a threat to India in any way possible.

You gave me this....look at the underlined part.

What wrong did I utter, you give what you get and we will have to keep up with this mentality becuase it does not bode well with others if they do not get a fitting reply.

So the debate was over then and whatever source you gave me then had zero credibility as this is not the way debates are held.

I will understand that you have taken me as another Indian. which is fine.

Anything that shows the reality in this current scenario somehow has zero credibility where as the propaganda that has clear intentions of maligning is absolute truth.

I have taken you for what you have spoken as.

 

[Spring Onion]

China-Pak nuclear deal: ‘India opened a Pandora’s box’

China-Pak nuclear deal: ?India opened a Pandora?s box? - India - The Times of India

NEW DELHI: The proposed China-Pakistan nuclear deal could spell trouble for India's own membership of the Nuclear Suppliers Group, severely upsetting the calculations of the government here.

India had hoped that the New Zealand plenary meeting scheduled for later this week might move the process along for India to be eventually recognized as a formal member of the group.

India had told the NSG that following the Indo-US nuclear deal, its laws and regulations had been harmonized with the global body, and that it was ready to be a member of the group. This was emphasized by the government in its last meeting with the NSG troika earlier this year.

Instead, there is a growing anger, albeit impotent, within the 45-member group as they confront a virtual fait accompli by China "informing" them of its decision to build two new nuclear reactors for Pakistan, a proliferation rogue. But such is the growing clout of China internationally that, Indian officials say, there is a lot of grumbling, but little outright opposition. The US so far is the only country to openly oppose the proposed arrangement, but that too happened after the Iran sanctions vote in the UN Security Council, where China's cooperation was crucial. France, sources said, is likely to raise its own objections at the NSG meeting later this week.

China is unlikely to ask for a full waiver for Pakistan from the NSG, along the lines of the India deal. That would require a huge amount of political investment of the kind the US made for India. IInstead, China is likely to push these two reactors through under a kind of diplomatic amnesia because there is a paper trail that says only two reactors in Pakistan had been "grandfathered" by China. With China becoming more muscular in international politics, this kind of a "thin-end-of-the-wedge" kind of deal might just go through.

Of course, the Indian government is readying its own diplomatic initiative against the proposed deal -- but quietly, mainly working with "friends" in Europe, many of whom batted for India during its own deal. Openly, India has not yet revealed its hand, and is still squeamish about coming out against the deal, given it is not a member of the NSG and its own deal is virtually hot off the press. Therefore, India will wait for the NSG to take a view this week.

During the recent visit of President Pratibha Patil to China, the Indians used the formal banquet to tell Chinese foreign minister Yang Jiechi that the deal would be a very bad idea. Yang's response was textbook -- the Pakistan deal was peaceful and under IAEA safeguards. India has desisted from a formal objection to the Pak deal.

A lot of the anger of countries like Austria, Ireland and the Scandinavian countries against the China-Pakistan deal is directed against India. "You opened a Pandora's box," many countries have said accusingly. India received a country-specific waiver from the NSG in 2008 for nuclear commerce, but it was a bitter pill for many countries for whom the existing non-proliferation regime is a national mantra, including, ironically New Zealand, where the China-Pak deal is likely to be discussed.

But there is little appreciation for India's line that its nuclear deal was a reward for an unblemished record in non-proliferation, and that India was a class apart from Pakistan.

So India says that it had not yet played its dirty hand.

2. still it accepts that there is little opposition to China-Pak deal and except US no major country is raising objection.

3. Oh well whatever way the China makes the deal going, is better for us , who cares what way it comes

 

[humza_313]

China-Pak nuclear deal: ‘India opened a Pandora’s box’

China-Pak nuclear deal: ?India opened a Pandora?s box? - India - The Times of India

NEW DELHI: The proposed China-Pakistan nuclear deal could spell trouble for India's own membership of the Nuclear Suppliers Group, severely upsetting the calculations of the government here.

India had hoped that the New Zealand plenary meeting scheduled for later this week might move the process along for India to be eventually recognized as a formal member of the group.




India had told the NSG that following the Indo-US nuclear deal, its laws and regulations had been harmonized with the global body, and that it was ready to be a member of the group. This was emphasized by the government in its last meeting with the NSG troika earlier this year.

Instead, there is a growing anger, albeit impotent, within the 45-member group as they confront a virtual fait accompli by China "informing" them of its decision to build two new nuclear reactors for Pakistan, a proliferation rogue. But such is the growing clout of China internationally that, Indian officials say, there is a lot of grumbling, but little outright opposition. The US so far is the only country to openly oppose the proposed arrangement, but that too happened after the Iran sanctions vote in the UN Security Council, where China's cooperation was crucial. France, sources said, is likely to raise its own objections at the NSG meeting later this week.

China is unlikely to ask for a full waiver for Pakistan from the NSG, along the lines of the India deal. That would require a huge amount of political investment of the kind the US made for India. Instead, China is likely to push these two reactors through under a kind of diplomatic amnesia because there is a paper trail that says only two reactors in Pakistan had been "grandfathered" by China. With China becoming more muscular in international politics, this kind of a "thin-end-of-the-wedge" kind of deal might just go through.

Of course, the Indian government is readying its own diplomatic initiative against the proposed deal -- but quietly, mainly working with "friends" in Europe, many of whom batted for India during its own deal. Openly, India has not yet revealed its hand, and is still squeamish about coming out against the deal, given it is not a member of the NSG and its own deal is virtually hot off the press. Therefore, India will wait for the NSG to take a view this week.

During the recent visit of President Pratibha Patil to China, the Indians used the formal banquet to tell Chinese foreign minister Yang Jiechi that the deal would be a very bad idea. Yang's response was textbook -- the Pakistan deal was peaceful and under IA

 

[CONNAN]

but one thing is sure in todays geo politics noboby is a dearest friend nor any body is a blood sworn enemy

 

[Parashuram1]

Of course, the Indian government is readying its own diplomatic initiative against the proposed deal -- but quietly, mainly working with "friends" in Europe, many of whom batted for India during its own deal

Having read a thread on the same topic in the Pakistani section concerning Americans to ignore this nuclear deal, when this article mentioned Europe, I have a gut feeling that the famed MMRCA contract which is really the bone for all countries participating will come to Europe. Whether Germany, France or Sweden, it is going to be a European country for sure. $12 billion is an amount that would possibly swing decisions of any country at this time.

Mr. Bernhard Gerwert had clearly indicated a change in political perspective of four most influential European countries should New Delhi opt for their fighter. I cannot think of any other reason other than this for Europe.

I would like to hear what the Indians think here.

 

[Parashuram1]

So India says that it had not yet played its dirty hand.

2. still it accepts that there is little opposition to China-Pak deal and except US no major country is raising objection.

3. Oh well whatever way the China makes the deal going, is better for us , who cares what way it comes

Dear lady, can you clarify a query for me? Considering that you have both civilian and military nuclear facilities in your country at the moment as well, who has been so far supplying you the radioactive fuel?

I trust it must be the Chinese for strategic reasons such as secrecy. If that is the case, then I don't see any reason why this case makes any different sense than earlier ones except that you get 2 more nuclear plants.

Or are you going to get a nuclear waiver from the entire NSG? I ask this because no such indications have been revealed in any of the articles other than 2 civil nuclear power plants. Involving NSG is a long and cumbersome process.

 

[Creder]

No i dont think getting a waiver from NSG is the way for us to go, that will take way too long..even you guys are "still" finalizing the deal and what not

Besides an NSG waiver would allow Pakistan to approach other countries and that will take business away from China so i dont think chineese will do that, and we are just fine with it since we are much more familiarized with the chineese technologies and furthermore China is advancing in the nuclear field very remarkably so we will reap the benefits for that too

Anyways there is nothing stopping this deal from going through..There just isnt much opposition to it, not even from the states..all the reports of US clashing with China are coming from India media, whereas it is in US best interest to let this deal go ahead.

 

[Parashuram1]

No i dont think getting a waiver from NSG is the way for us to go, that will take way too long..even you guys are "still" finalizing the deal and what not

Besides an NSG waiver would allow Pakistan to approach other countries and that will take business away from China so i dont think chineese will do that, and we are just fine with it since we are much more familiarized with the chineese technologies and furthermore China is advancing in the nuclear field very remarkably so we will reap the benefits for that too

Anyways there is nothing stopping this deal from going through..There just isnt much opposition to it, not even from the states..all the reports of US clashing with China are coming from India media, whereas it is in US best interest to let this deal go ahead.

Actually if you see this from a strategic perspective, it is not. United States might seem to gain momentarily in Afghanistan for impressing Pakistani government and perhaps warming the relationship with Chinese government but in the end they will lose any strategic relevance to the Indians.

Although from the world perspective China is considerably ahead of its southern neighbour, New Delhi over the last few years seems to have come to world's notice rather fast. I wouldn't want to quote George Bush but it was his government that made significant inroads into the sub-continental giant's strategic spheres.

I would be safe to say that American government has to balance itself here carefully:

An upset Pakistan would cost them their supply routes;

An upset China would cost them a dissatisfied supplier;

An upset India would cost them a big potential strategic partner.




This is where politicians are tested for their decision making skills now, isn' it?