China opposes Israel's settlements construction in occupied Palestinian territory

[oceanx]

Throughout my posts, I maintain that it is China's interest to maintain a balanced relationship with Arabs as well as Israel. A bunch of guys jump out advocating we should stay at the side of Arabs, be the justice man and condemn Israel. Are we getting another blood brother again???

You have a point, ePhone ... but only superficially. And sorely lacking context.

When the conflict was still "Israeli-Palestinian" (i.e., prior to 1967), lip-servicing was free for everyone as long as oil flowed and the show went on between the "super-powers".

Then it became an Israeli-Arab conflict (1967 to 1979 or 1989 - depending on whether you use the Iranian Revolution or the Fall of the Wall as a watershed event), it still didn't concern much of East Asia at least, for that part of the world had its own intractable problems.

From the Iranian Revolution on, gradually until now, accelerated by the WoT and particularly the 2nd Iraqi War, it is fast evolving into a Jewish-Muslim conflict.

It's not about the Arabs anymore. The AKP didn't "turn on Israel" ... something happened over the last decade that made the Turkish generals turn against Israel (Likud and their friends' instigation of the 2nd Iraqi war had a lot to do with it). But the Propaganda will tell you it's all AKP and "Islamists" ...

Basically Trouble has already reached the part of the continent where 99.8% of Chinese live, on top of the reams of trouble that part of the continent already has. Whether this was by design or by "providence", it don't matter.

This is not Israeli-Palestinian or Israeli-Arab anymore. Maybe that's what Likud and Bin Laden both wanted. But is that what everyone else wants?

Wink-wink, nudge-nudge doesn't cut it any more.

People actually have to defend what is defensible.

And that is core interest.

My point is that it is not China's interest to totally side with Muslim, or totally side with Jewish state. We need maintain our balance.

You have to understand this is a false choice. The PRC is already f^cked if this is the choice it must make (I would substitute Israel with the more voguish "secularism" or "xxxx value")

It's not about who is "siding with who". It is again about defending what is "defensible".

For example, siding with Serbia to keep Kosovo is not the same as "siding" with Bosnian Serbs (thankfully PRC didn't lift a finger for the latter for they were engaged in the indefensible).

I will go so far as to say (strictly personal opinion) that Israel's survival as a sovereign state is very much in line with PRC's core interest.

Another way in stating the above is that the country's suicide is not in China's interest.

As for the Muslim Uighur, they do received financial supports from many Muslim countries including those Arabs. Saudi has been a big financiers to muslims all over the world, including them of course. I do think China need its iron hand on those Uighur since that is the only thing they understand better. For the past 400 years, history clearly has shown that under Iron Hand control, there will be peace there. As long as government looses the control, they will tend to carry on their terrorist/separatist activities.

No disagreement with respect to the "Custodians".

We will discuss Iron "fist" - its "advantages" and serious limitations somewhere else. I think everybody will agree that Iron Fist cannot be the only means. There will be debate whether it should even be the predominant means and for how long. My genuine belief is that it will fail, sooner or later, if it is the "main show".

But the "iron fist" has a definite role in helping to prevent a Hobbesian "Katastroika" ...

I will stop here.

In addition, "know the difference between an "Arab Israeli" and a "West-bank Palestinian"" will have any influence??? For Arab Israeli, they have Israel nationality and ethically are Arab. The other ones do not have Israel nationality and are refuges due to those several Arab-Israel wars in the past decades. What does that will bring you???

30%.

30% of West Bank Palestinians are descendants of refugees. That means at least 1.5 million (equivalent to 20% of Israeli population or more) are natives of the land but currently stateless.

How is that defensible? Some Uighurs are unhappy, but they have a state (sure they can hate the state). Some Tibetans are unhappy, but they have a state (likewise they are free to hate the state). Some Kurds are unhappy, and they have a state. Some Baluchs in Iran or in Pakistan are unhappy, but they have a state.

Why must the West Bank Palestinians not have a state?

Minority rights within states (even some quite imperfect ones) are not to be confused with stateless people's right to a state.

Has there been another country in this world we live in over the past 50 years who has been "settling" people on a parcel of land - any parcel of land that they do not consider to be a part of their state?

And making exclusive roads for these "settlers" among a people they do not even acknowledge? Queue your friend 500's "there ain't no such thing as Palestinians ..."

Nobody is calling for the IDF to vacate everywhere pronto and set the stage for anarchy. Read the topic of this thread again. Not condemning the settlement is indefensible. It's a no-brainer.

When you defend the defensible, even Israel will become eventually defensible.

 

[iPakMan]

Your last sentence doesn`t make sense... Anyhow, comparing Likud to Bin Laden shows your ignorance and makes me question your mental state. But let`s move past that, They were offered a STATE of their own, they refused. They tried to take it all, they failed. They tried again and again, to fail again and have west bank, Sinai, Golan Heights taken away. Now we gave back Sinai, and enjoyed a cold peace where the Regime allowed and even encouraged hatred for the jewish state, but it was a peace we enjoyed nevertheless.
Now Mubarak is gone, and suddenly our peace agreement isn`t as solid at is was, now there are people saying the Egyptians deserved more(for losing each war) and want to either bargain for more, or break it off completely. This in itself shows how productive "Land for Peace" really is. But let`s again move past that, How is it our fault that every time we concede all we get is more terror for our women and children? 3 Grads fell in my city, and i heard sirens and i heard 3 ear shattering Explosion sounds... Do i Whine? No, because the world cares for the poor innocent harmless Arabs, i do not because i know what they are. They are animals begging for mercy and money and a state for trying and failing to destroy the Jewish Nation. Who acknowledges this? No one.

Point being i`d love nothing more to be rid of the Palestinian conflict so that when they do have a state of their own, and terror keeps going on because they suddenly have a new demand, some new distress or misery they can burn in hell for all we care.

 

[ephone]

Trust me, even though you see some Chinese members here post anti-Israel posts here, Chinese people have no ill feeling with Israel and indeed we do admire your achievements.

If you indeed go to China and tell the Chinese people you meet that you are Jewish, you will feel that you are quite welcomed there.

Even our government nowadays has more and more cooperations with your country. I do hope whatever way you try, you can indeed find peace.

However, history has shown that it is quite difficult. You need a brave premier minister and president like Yitzhak Rabin to strike the deal and make painful concessions to achieve that. If Israel still have hard-core leaders, that will be very hard for the world to watch the bloody episodes on and on.

Neither sides can annihilate the other one even though Israel do have the ability to do so but human rights watchdogs as well as your strongest supporter/US will prevent such things from happening.

As I have stated times and times again, it never is China's interest to be at the opposite side of Israel. Even when we have to care about the feeling of the Arabs due to oil import, China will not alienate Israel. The more and more cooperations between the two countries have clearly shown the continual improvement of relationship between the two.

My faculty advisor in my university at China even went to Israel to get his Ph.D. and his Israel Ph.D. advisor even flew to China to admit him directly. Well it was quite strange then since I thought you only need mail your applications to the university you apply for then.

He indeed later has quite good remarks about Israeli people there.

Your last sentence doesn`t make sense... Anyhow, comparing Likud to Bin Laden shows your ignorance and makes me question your mental state. But let`s move past that, They were offered a STATE of their own, they refused. They tried to take it all, they failed. They tried again and again, to fail again and have west bank, Sinai, Golan Heights taken away. Now we gave back Sinai, and enjoyed a cold peace where the Regime allowed and even encouraged hatred for the jewish state, but it was a peace we enjoyed nevertheless.
Now Mubarak is gone, and suddenly our peace agreement isn`t as solid at is was, now there are people saying the Egyptians deserved more(for losing each war) and want to either bargain for more, or break it off completely. This in itself shows how productive "Land for Peace" really is. But let`s again move past that, How is it our fault that every time we concede all we get is more terror for our women and children? 3 Grads fell in my city, and i heard sirens and i heard 3 ear shattering Explosion sounds... Do i Whine? No, because the world cares for the poor innocent harmless Arabs, i do not because i know what they are. They are animals begging for mercy and money and a state for trying and failing to destroy the Jewish Nation. Who acknowledges this? No one.

Point being i`d love nothing more to be rid of the Palestinian conflict so that when they do have a state of their own, and terror keeps going on because they suddenly have a new demand, some new distress or misery they can burn in hell for all we care.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

No, because the world cares for the poor innocent harmless Arabs, i do not because i know what they are. They are animals begging for mercy and money.

Don't you think that is a bit unfair?

Anyway, it is human nature to cheer for the "underdog"... and to resent the more powerful side for "bullying".

Israel was once perceived as the "underdog". However, that is no longer the case.

 

[iPakMan]

Trust me, even though you see some Chinese members here post anti-Israel posts here, Chinese people have no ill feeling with Israel and indeed we do admire your achievements.

If you indeed go to China and tell the Chinese people you meet that you are Jewish, you will feel that you are quite welcomed there.

Even our government nowadays has more and more cooperations with your country. I do hope whatever way you try, you can indeed find peace.

However, history has shown that it is quite difficult. You need a brave premier minister and president like Yitzhak Rabin to strike the deal and make painful concessions to achieve that. If Israel still have hard-core leaders, that will be very hard for the world to watch the bloody episodes on and on.

Neither sides can annihilate the other one even though Israel do have the ability to do so but human rights watchdogs as well as your strongest supporter/US will prevent such things from happening.

As I have stated times and times again, it never is China's interest to be at the opposite side of Israel. Even when we have to care about the feeling of the Arabs due to oil import, China will not alienate Israel. The more and more cooperations between the two countries have clearly shown the continual improvement of relationship between the two.

My faculty advisor in my university at China even went to Israel to get his Ph.D. and his Israel Ph.D. advisor even flew to China to admit him directly. Well it was quite strange then since I thought you only need mail your applications to the university you apply for then.

He indeed later has quite good remarks about Israeli people there.

ephone, my sentiments weren`t directed at you, i know Anti-Israel chinese are a minority at best. With regards to Yitzhak Rabin, it is true he wanted the best but what he achieved and thought to be a victory, Time has proven that he was wrong, we were wrong. Land for peace does not work. It is only to finally rid the Palestinians from us we accept a two State Solution. We are not delusional to think it will bring Peace, we hope for a time it will. But Not with Jerusalem, Never. Jerusalem must stay the Undivided capital of the Jewish Nation.
And yes we too admire Chinese intelligence and i can honestly say i hope China and Israel could one day soon have an immense and close relationship, economical military and otherwise.

Don't you think that is a bit unfair?
Anyway, it is human nature to cheer for the "underdog"... and to resent the more powerful side for "bullying".

Israel was once perceived as the "underdog". However, that is no longer the case.

On the contrary, the world has been too lenient towards "Palestinians", and yes i agree it is indeed human nature to root for the "underdog" but it makes no sense to root for people who Glorify Terrorists that took hundreds of Innocent Lives, and naming Streets after them!
Israel is indeed the powerful one here, but you have to remember there are 13.5Million Jews worldwide, 5million Jews in Israel, and there are 365Million Arabs in the world, let alone the 1.4 Billion Muslims who all are taught to hate blindly without reason, just to hate!
So in the Jewish nation, every one jewish life lost feels like a thousand.

 

[fallstuff]

You think it is all about money and it is so easy for women just to have a scan and then take abortion. Afterwards, everything is normal for them.

Good thinking???!!!

Good relationship with those Arabs? Well, we have been good to NK, VN, USSR, Albania and etc... We even boasted that they are our blood brothers. You know what happened later?

Throughout my posts, I maintain that it is China's interest to maintain a balanced relationship with Arabs as well as Israel. A bunch of guys jump out advocating we should stay at the side of Arabs, be the justice man and condemn Israel. Are we getting another blood brother again???

I am not going to deal with a bunch of idiots here any more. Enjoy your off-track analysis from those supposed self-claimed experts.

China doesn't need to balance its relationship as defined by some foreign entity. The Arabs got oil, Israel doesn't. Some irrigation technology and a couple of unproven indigenous defense systems ( which many call as bogus systems even in Israel) do not equal the value of energy. Sure there is nothing wrong in keeping good relationship with Israel, but there is nothing that Israel can offer that can possibly define the terms of that relationship.

 

[oceanx]

... Anyhow, comparing Likud to Bin Laden shows your ignorance and makes me question your mental state.

Next time I'll make sure I get my psychiatrist's permission before I compare criminals.

O wait, what did I write again? "... both Likud and Bin Laden wanted sumthin' sumthin' ..."

Now if I said both iPakman and donkey wanted air, water, and food, I must be comparing iPakdude to a jack@ss, right?

Well so be it.

... They were offered a STATE of their own, they refused.

Back then I looked into "Barak's Offer". Others can comment on the perceived viability of the criss-crossed, settlement-studded Bantustan.

But to say the whole thing was a hoax was unfair to Barak. And there are people out there who were genuinely nonplussed with the way Arafat let go of the Taba version of the deal ...

But then you could blame your Likudnik Granpy-in-a-coma for poisoning the environment with stunts and bringing down the house.

Well I guess in the Middle East's only democracy, politicians do this sorta thing.

I don't know ... why would I even dream of comparing Likud to Bin Laden, even without the blood of Iraq?

3 Grads fell in my city, and i heard sirens and i heard 3 ear shattering Explosion sounds... Do i Whine?

Well I am really sorry to hear that, just as I am sorry to hear about the explosions elsewhere - nail-packed suicide bombings in Russia, bus bombings in China, and drone attacks in Pakistan.

But if I didn't know better, I might think you got at least a minor concussion judging by the way you are carrying on.

No, because the world cares for the poor innocent harmless Arabs, i do not because i know what they are. They are animals begging for mercy and money and a state for trying and failing to destroy the Jewish Nation. Who acknowledges this? No one.

Acknowledge what? Acknowledge there are terrorists?

Every era has its Terrorists and Bolsheviks. Dehumanizing the Bolsheviks, or some group/ethnicity/religion's perceived association with Bolshevism has led to terrible tragedies to more than one people on more than one continent.

Now must this cycle be repeated?

 

[oceanx]

...
However, history has shown that it is quite difficult. You need a brave premier minister and president like Yitzhak Rabin to strike the deal and make painful concessions to achieve that. If Israel still have hard-core leaders, that will be very hard for the world to watch the bloody episodes on and on.

You are not wrong there buddy. But you don't know Muslims. I mean that sincerely.

As a group - as any "group", they are not without faults.

I once sat across a group late at night ... and one of them pounded the table with pride, and said, "... xxxxx, we used to make them (Copts) ride donkeys sideways, like women! ..." Then hacking cough ...

But that really is far, far, far from the whole picture. You must spend some time really getting to know them. They share commonalities just like the Chinese. But they are far more heterogeneous than even the Indians, despite what you hear day in and day out about the "Ummah" ...

And to say they are "heterogeneous" is not to deny (what I feel) is something "serious" that binds them.

BTW, the most candid discussion I had with anyone on Israel and Middle East was with a Coptic Egyptian (who turned Protestant) ... and I had a chance to broach it with a "Fatimid" (Shi'ite in your book) from Iraq and got some education.

You heard/read about Huis, Uighurs, Wang Zhen and his machine guns, Muslims, and Israelis who taught your professor ...

Some of us read, too. And would not be any less than you.

But you don't know any of these groups on a personal level, just as Kamikaze man says.

You are doing yourself a huge disservice by being so emotional.

Take this any way you like ... this is entirely well-intentioned.

 

[fallstuff]

Your last sentence doesn`t make sense... Anyhow, comparing Likud to Bin Laden shows your ignorance and makes me question your mental state. But let`s move past that, They were offered a STATE of their own, they refused. They tried to take it all, they failed. They tried again and again, to fail again and have west bank, Sinai, Golan Heights taken away. Now we gave back Sinai, and enjoyed a cold peace where the Regime allowed and even encouraged hatred for the jewish state, but it was a peace we enjoyed nevertheless.
Now Mubarak is gone, and suddenly our peace agreement isn`t as solid at is was, now there are people saying the Egyptians deserved more(for losing each war) and want to either bargain for more, or break it off completely. This in itself shows how productive "Land for Peace" really is. But let`s again move past that, How is it our fault that every time we concede all we get is more terror for our women and children? 3 Grads fell in my city, and i heard sirens and i heard 3 ear shattering Explosion sounds... Do i Whine? No, because the world cares for the poor innocent harmless Arabs, i do not because i know what they are. They are animals begging for mercy and money and a state for trying and failing to destroy the Jewish Nation. Who acknowledges this? No one.

Point being i`d love nothing more to be rid of the Palestinian conflict so that when they do have a state of their own, and terror keeps going on because they suddenly have a new demand, some new distress or misery they can burn in hell for all we care.

So they are animals now. huh ? So thats what it is. They are animals, therefore do not need to be treated as human being, ok I get it.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

So in the Jewish nation, every one jewish life lost feels like a thousand.

That is an interesting perspective.

On the contrary, the world has been too lenient towards "Palestinians", and yes i agree it is indeed human nature to root for the "underdog" but it makes no sense to root for people who Glorify Terrorists that took hundreds of Innocent Lives, and naming Streets after them!
Israel is indeed the powerful one here, but you have to remember there are 13.5Million Jews worldwide, 5million Jews in Israel, and there are 365Million Arabs in the world, let alone the 1.4 Billion Muslims who all are taught to hate blindly without reason, just to hate!
So in the Jewish nation, every one jewish life lost feels like a thousand.

Powerful countries in their respective regions will always be hated.

Look at the attitude of the USA+Japan towards China in the 1970's (relatively friendly)... and compare that with today. Sure, they are not "hostile" at the moment, but they are definitely very worried.

 

[iPakMan]

China doesn't need to balance its relationship as defined by some foreign entity. The Arabs got oil, Israel doesn't. Some irrigation technology and a couple of unproven indigenous defense systems ( which many call as bogus systems even in Israel) do not equal the value of energy. Sure there is nothing wrong in keeping good relationship with Israel, but there is nothing that Israel can offer that can possibly define the terms of that relationship.

Only time will tell if China and Israel find reason for a close Relationship. And with regards to our Technology, If you believe Israel anything but a Household Power then there isn`t more to discuss between you and i.

Next time I'll make sure I get my psychiatrist's permission before I compare criminals.

O wait, what did I write again? "... both Likud and Bin Laden wanted sumthin' sumthin' ..."

Now if I said both iPakman and donkey wanted air, water, and food, I must be comparing iPakdude to a jack@ss, right?

Well so be it.




Back then I looked into "Barak's Offer". Others can comment on the perceived viability of the criss-crossed, settlement-studded Bantustan.

But to say the whole thing was a hoax was unfair to Barak. And there are people out there who were genuinely nonplussed with the way Arafat let go of the Taba version of the deal ...

But then you could blame your Likudnik Granpy-in-a-coma for poisoning the environment with stunts and bringing down the house.

Well I guess in the Middle East's only democracy, politicians do this sorta thing.

I don't know ... why would I even dream of comparing Likud to Bin Laden, even without the blood of Iraq?




Well I am really sorry to hear that, just as I am sorry to hear about the explosions elsewhere - nail-packed suicide bombings in Russia, bus bombings in China, and drone attacks in Pakistan.

But if I didn't know better, I might think you got at least a minor concussion judging by the way you are carrying on.




Acknowledge what? Acknowledge there are terrorists?

Every era has its Terrorists and Bolsheviks. Dehumanizing the Bolsheviks, or some group/ethnicity/religion's perceived association with Bolshevism has led to terrible tragedies to more than one people on more than one continent.

Now must this cycle be repeated?

Comparing a Party of people representing a quarter of the People who are wholeheartedly defending our Nation to a Mass murdering scum is indeed a poor comparison don`t you agree?

When i said they were offered half the Country i meant the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine, to which the Arab leaders threatened the Jewish population of Palestine, speaking of "driving the Jews into the sea" and ridding Palestine "of the Zionist Plague"


With regards to the cycle, yes it will continue because Arabs won`t stop hating, and The Jewish Nation will never stop defending herself.
Let me quote a Great Leader Golda Meir, our former Prime Minister:

"Peace will come to the Middle East when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us."

Take what you`d like from That.

And yes i agree Chinese-Dragon, hopefully it won`t lead to war.

P.S
Great line, thanks. (Not being sarcastic, i find that line quite true)
"You are doing yourself a huge disservice by being so emotional."

 

[Omar1984]

China is smart. It wants to have a good image in the Muslim world especially in the Middle East, Central Asia, Pakistan. This region is very important for global powers, and its important to have a good image in this region.

 

[ephone]

Well, I am not sure Rabin is wrong since it is still too short for history to make judgement. However, the fact that Israel's later hardcore leaders continue pushing for settlement buildings really makes negotiation nearly impossible.

No matter what happened in the mid-east wars between the two sides, when you look for peace, you have to go back to the UN resolutions for the two state solutions. To be honest, Jerusalem was not totally given to Israel by the UN and was not under Israel control for majority of the past two thousand years.

So historical justification only by old testament can NOT really convince people outside Christianity, which I refer to Jews, protestant, catholics and orthodox all together. To be honest, I am not even sure that can convince those within the total Christianity. Muslims can take out their Quran as well for similar justification. Then there will be no end.

Of course, Israel is militarily powerful and has a strong backer which is US. By such military power, Israel can indeed hold on Jerusalem. However, history shows that even strongest empire will fall and there will be NO exception. If Israel is not willing to make painful concessions now to go back to UN resolution, I am afraid that one day you will regret. The biggest problem for Israel is that it is just too small and you can NOT lose any war since all countries around you are hostile towards you.

BTW, will the fighting will stays the same for each generation of Israelis? Will the support from US always be there? And you have to assume US to stay powerful all the time and history has shown that it is impossible.

So for the long run, some wise leaders need make such decision.

ephone, my sentiments weren`t directed at you, i know Anti-Israel chinese are a minority at best. With regards to Yitzhak Rabin, it is true he wanted the best but what he achieved and thought to be a victory, Time has proven that he was wrong, we were wrong. Land for peace does not work. It is only to finally rid the Palestinians from us we accept a two State Solution. We are not delusional to think it will bring Peace, we hope for a time it will. But Not with Jerusalem, Never. Jerusalem must stay the Undivided capital of the Jewish Nation.
And yes we too admire Chinese intelligence and i can honestly say i hope China and Israel could one day soon have an immense and close relationship, economical military and otherwise.


On the contrary, the world has been too lenient towards "Palestinians", and yes i agree it is indeed human nature to root for the "underdog" but it makes no sense to root for people who Glorify Terrorists that took hundreds of Innocent Lives, and naming Streets after them!
Israel is indeed the powerful one here, but you have to remember there are 13.5Million Jews worldwide, 5million Jews in Israel, and there are 365Million Arabs in the world, let alone the 1.4 Billion Muslims who all are taught to hate blindly without reason, just to hate!
So in the Jewish nation, every one jewish life lost feels like a thousand.

 

[below_freezing]

China doesn't need to balance its relationship as defined by some foreign entity. The Arabs got oil, Israel doesn't. Some irrigation technology and a couple of unproven indigenous defense systems ( which many call as bogus systems even in Israel) do not equal the value of energy. Sure there is nothing wrong in keeping good relationship with Israel, but there is nothing that Israel can offer that can possibly define the terms of that relationship.

You're absolutely correct. Israel's technology is mostly in irrigation, which is very needed, but we do not import any defense systems from them, not since 1999. Having a good relationship with Israel does not mean unconditional worship of Jews. In fact, we can even question the importance of Einstein to modern technology, and instead, think about the (what I consider) far more important contributions of Heisenberg, who was a Nazi German that contributed to Germany's atomic bomb project but fortunately was cut short by the Allies. His theory of quantum mechanics has farspread applications today, whereas Einstein's Brownian motion studies and relativity theory are more useful in quantitative finance than modern technology. Photoelectricity has also been outdated, being replaced by photodiodes for almost all applications.

 

[CardSharp]

You're absolutely correct. Israel's technology is mostly in irrigation, which is very needed, but we do not import any defense systems from them, not since 1999. Having a good relationship with Israel does not mean unconditional worship of Jews. In fact, we can even question the importance of Einstein to modern technology, and instead, think about the (what I consider) far more important contributions of Heisenberg, who was a Nazi German that contributed to Germany's atomic bomb project but fortunately was cut short by the Allies. His theory of quantum mechanics has farspread applications today, whereas Einstein's Brownian motion studies and relativity theory are more useful in quantitative finance than modern technology. Photoelectricity has also been outdated, being replaced by photodiodes for almost all applications.

Hmmm general relativity is pretty important, and quantum mechanics wasn't developed by one man only, there were many Jewish scientists that were involved in the development. Off the top of my head, I think Schrodinger was a Jew and Max Born was also a Jew.

There maybe others but anyways you cannot ignore the very significant Jewish contribution to Physics. It sort of bears out the notion of very high IQ being paramount in the study of extremely complex fields like Physics. These Jewish scientists had two things, genetics and access to first rate education institutions in the US and Germany. I believe if China develops world class research environment there is plenty of raw talent in the Chinese people that can be honed there to do the great things that need doing. I mean look at the Nobel prizes in science that came out of the just handful of Chinese (relatively speaking) that were able to study in first rate western institutions.