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China opposes India's call for quick UNSC reforms

What we want to see is if China and India are doing incrementally better things every year to remove poverty and further the progress of humanity. This includes introducing laws, cutting down corruption, faster justice, rational budgeting decisions, checks and balances, empowerment of people at the local level to have their own budgets and spend etc There are reports out there that already describe these parameters and incremental growth every year. Bashing each other through banal, not well researched comments comes across as coming from people who still believe the world is flat and have a simplistic mindset and thought process. That lack of rigor in discussions is what I dont agree with. And I am a citizen of the world. So, I am as much Chinese as I am Indian as I am a European as I am an India. Like Shakespeare said:" All world is a stage, and we are but mere players on it".
 
See my reply about India's private enterprise versus China's government mandated capitalism. I am throwing this out there. But how do we know how many "poor" people are actually there in India? It is well known in global circles that countries like India and China exaggerate their poverty to garner more resources from the west and not sign treaties such as climate control and food related tariffs. At WTO, India and China use their "poverty" position to get favorable treatment for their goods as a "developing" country. There is something called "poverty" politics. Poverty in China and India might be exaggerated, for all we know. And poverty in developed nations might be underestimated. You have got to look deeper. You have to ask many questions. You have to probe and you have to understand the pieces of the puzzle. Naive, simplistic observations hat most Chinese here do make sme question their intellectual depth and analytical capabilities. The thought process just has to be a lot more deeper and rigorous.

This is the type of analysis I'm looking for, minus the racism. Facts are though, India truly is far behind China; more behind of China than China is behind of the US. China is more than likely exaggerating, but based on things like scientific articles published and patents applied for, India's poverty claims are far more realistic than China's. In key indicators of innovation China has a trend of overtaking the US by 2015.
 
I agree that Chinese PDF members should be more tolerant.
But plz Indians PDF members not to provoke us.

Plz see the thread of each which have quarrel. All are "Indians are asking for trouble."
 
The thing is to measure where they were 5 years ago and where they are now. The question is are they showing progress and showing real intent to get all those capabilities that you indicate they lack. What prevents the Indian government from hiring a global consulting firm such as McKinsey and pointing out the same things you did and implementing those recommendations? What in your opinion are Indians not capable of achieving? What is the real need to assume that Indians and their administrators might be idiots and incapable? What evidence do you actually have that demonstrates this "India is stagnating" position?
You are looking at a snapshot instead of looking at the flow of things. What the world wants to know is: are the Indians and Chinese improving every year and marching ahead? Both seem to be. The day Indians stop reforming or progressing, and start dithering I can see your criticisms. But when they are executing multi billion dollar projects to uplift their masses and reforming their legal system every day, I dont see any evidence whatsoever of why you should look down upon Indian achievements.
As far as manufacturing expertise, I'll let some Indians answer that.
Also, I'd like to know if all Indians really want modernity and the associated stresses and strains that come with that. India is a mystic old land. Cant we not assume that 20% of people in India may NOT want modernity and might even abhor modernity? Is there space for these people or are you going to keep calling them poor to thrust down your version of modernity. Like I said before, analyze better, ask a lot of questions, do not form simplistic view points and educate yourself a lot before assessing someone's position. My motto has always been to question everything. India and China must provide space to people who want to live a simplistic, non-materialistic lives as well. People must be able to choose how they want to live, after fully understanding the choices out there.
 
I think there are others who are better qualified to answer the part about machine tooling but I do remember of the biggest deals India signed with China last year was for Gas turbine used in power generation.

Yes..You are correct. You really are not qualified enough it seems.
Some research should be done and brain to be applied before passing such comment which decides the manufacturing capability of a country like India.
 
This is the type of analysis I'm looking for, minus the racism. Facts are though, India truly is far behind China; more behind of China than China is behind of the US. China is more than likely exaggerating, but based on things like scientific articles published and patents applied for, India's poverty claims are far more realistic than China's. In key indicators of innovation China has a trend of overtaking the US by 2015.

This sums up the kind of thought process you put before declaring a country inefficient...
 
China will do what is in China's best interests just as we do and just as every body does. This is not an issue at all. Why make a big thing out of it? Obtaining a consensus about UNSC reforms will take time, we also know that. India's pushing for early reforms is in India's best interests, it does no mean that we do not know of the hurdles ahead. Why do we need to kill ourselves here on this forum?
 
Look past the surface and at the core. Can India manufacture its own factors of production? That is, can it build the tools needed to sustain its industry? I believe not. China can build its own machine tools. If we were sanctioned tomorrow, only 2 critical industries would be affected by technology - semiconductors and civil aviation. And semiconductors isn't the final product, it's the photolithography equipment needed to make the product. But even making ICs is a far step ahead of what most countries can do.

India has no IC foundries. India cannot make its own machine tools. India's power consumption is 1/4th China's. It's lifespan is shorter, illiteracy higher and actually has starvation. PPP is useful only if you can make your own tools and are relatively free from importing. China can do that. Our PPP is more accurate because we mostly import raw materials. India's nominal is more accurate because they import manufactured goods.

This must be the first and foremost criteria for accurate PPP figures and poverty...
As much as rest of your usual indicators (on which you happily reject the development process of India- and according to me which is very close to being Nonsense and is actually Chest thumping because of almost nill application of brain ) are concerned - If we had everything in place - We would be DEVELOPED not DEVELOPING..
 
You are making a ridiculously contradicting statement here. If he is correct then why does he need more research?

Oh really..Did you notice the context in which i had written that..
BTW edited that post...
 
China will do what is in China's best interests just as we do and just as every body does. This is not an issue at all. Why make a big thing out of it? Obtaining a consensus about UNSC reforms will take time, we also know that. India's pushing for early reforms is in India's best interests, it does no mean that we do not know of the hurdles ahead. Why do we need to kill ourselves here on this forum?

This is one of the sane comment. Exactly my POV.
 
Also, I'd like to know if all Indians really want modernity and the associated stresses and strains that come with that. India is a mystic old land. Cant we not assume that 20% of people in India may NOT want modernity and might even abhor modernity? Is there space for these people or are you going to keep calling them poor to thrust down your version of modernity.
You bring in an excellent point here to the discussion and as a matter of fact I have personally met a lot of people in my village who are more than happy in their style of life. All they care for is a reliable power and water supply for them to sustain their agricultural roots. These villages and the people staying back are preserving the thousands of years old culture and it is precisely the reason why there are large scale protests in some of these areas, when the govt approves a mega scale project threatening to take away their peaceful means of life.
Urbanization is good, but we have to leave enough room to preserve our culture. We want to see people live their lives happily rather than be running around a hectic life competing with resources in the urban environment.
 
No surprise here- China vetos even putting a terrorist organization LET/JUD that is listed as such by practically everyone, US, EU, Russia etc- on the UN sanctions list, because it kills indians.


Anyways- Funny enough I was at the UN building 2 days ago. Now if I heard correctly, if one permanent member veto's ( china will always for sure) then you need 180 'ish ( or somewhere there) to overwrite it out of the 194 nations. basically India needs almost fewer votes than what it got - to put India on the security council this time around.
 
No surprise here- China vetos even putting a terrorist organization LET/JUD that is listed as such by practically everyone, US, EU, Russia etc- on the UN sanctions list, because it kills indians.


Anyways- Funny enough I was at the UN building 2 days ago. Now if I heard correctly, if one permanent member veto's ( china will always for sure) then you need 180 'ish ( or somewhere there) to overwrite it out of the 194 nations. basically India needs almost fewer votes than what it got - to put India on the security council this time around.

what arm of the UN are they voting from? cause if its the SC the even if every other country said "yes" the one "no" from a P5 member overrules them all. as for needing 180 countries and you assume china will always say no, if that is the case then India has no hope.
 
UNSC reforms: Illogical and self practices by vested interests
We need to question the criteria for the status of being a permanent member of the UNSC. If any set of rules is made, India would surely meet with the requirements.

Once again, India is making the valiant attempt to become a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council (UNSC). And this time, through the aegis of the BRIC where G-4 (India, Brazil, Germany and Japan) are trying to push for UNSC reforms.

It may be recalled when the world leaders met, some five years ago, they agreed that the composition of the UNSC must be reformed to recognize the world’s needs and changed circumstances, since the establishment of the UN almost 70 years ago.

This move is taking place on the sidelines of the 67th UN General Assembly session that is in progress. They are now trying to reiterate the urgent need to change the composition of the UNSC, once again, based on the contributions made by countries to maintain international peace and security and the increased representation of developing countries in both permanent and non-permanent categories, to reflect the “geopolitical realities” of today.

These are great ideals and sound nice, but in reality, we are overlooking a few fundamental changes that have actually taken place.

In the Bretton Woods Conference, the world at large accepted that USA, UK, France, Russia and China (Taiwan or Formosa) should be the permanent members of the Security Council with veto powers. However, in one sweep of the pen, Richard Nixon, the US President dumped Taiwan and had it replaced by China. This was accepted by the members of the
UN without question, because it “was common sense to accept and recognize the voice of some 600 million people” China represented.

Couple of decades later, when the European Union came into existence, which includes UK and France, in the same principle of China replacing Taiwan, Europe ought to have occupied the permanent seat in the UNSC in lieu of UK and France, who ought to have ‘surrendered’ or ‘lost’ their permanent status—just as Russia replaced USSR in the Security Council. The one seat vacant in the big five ought to have gone to a country like India. Alas, this did not happen then, because of the vested interests of western powers did not dwell on the subject in any manner or form in the UN.

Every attempt that India made, supported by USSR (Russia later) was vetoed by China for its own reasons of security, jealousy and inherent enmity, prompted by Pakistan, its ally.

Now the question is what are the criteria for such a status of being a permanent member of the UNSC? If any set of rules are made, India would surely meet with the requirements except that it would not be a so-called ‘global power” having gone to war with other nations. In fact, India is one of the very few nations in the world that has not gone to war over any other country for more than 1,000 years!

It is time the UN itself needs to set up a high-profile committee of international jurists, legal experts and intellectuals to study and amend its Constitution to accommodate the changing world situation. It may also question if UNSC is needed in the first place; and if so, what are the criteria that must be fulfilled before a country can become a permanent veto wielding power.

Will it be based on economic or military strength? Or just the population? Or peace and industrial progress? Or a world divided by geographical status of five continents or into major religious denominations? In the interim period, should UK and France be replaced by Europe? Should a country like India, representing 20% of the global population be left out because China can exercise a veto?

It is time the UN reviews the whole situation and takes practical steps to correct the anomalies that have crept in.
UNSC reforms: Illogical and self practices by vested interests - Moneylife
Many points noted including why china was included in UNSC. I didn't know that earlier.
 

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