China military stresses Party control in face of 'liberal' enemies

[chauism]

I realize that PLA has a positive image right now. What I'm talking about are hypotheticals, speculations.

I have already said that CCP is doing a great job right now.

The problem with you is that your hypothesis does not have any firm footing. So there is nothing meaningful to discuss.

 

[xunzi]

The CCP is a representation of the people. We chose to allow the CCP to manage the people using the PLA as a protector of the people right and property.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

The problem with you is that your hypothesis does not have any firm footing. So there is nothing meaningful to discuss.

My friend, are you seriously telling me that CCP will remain in power always?

Never happened before in Chinese history, heck, in world history.

The CCP is a representation of the people. We chose to allow the CCP to manage the people using the PLA as a protector of the people right and property.

"We chose to allow the CCP"

Hence, when you chose CCP to step down, it will step down, right?

 

[YoucanYouup]

What is communist party?
Whtat is communist?
I guess you guys just know the name and nothing more
The similarities and differences is important, but none of you care
Like Fourier transform,Laplace transform and Z-transform. Do they look same? Are they useful?How do they work?

 

[JSCh]

Chinese government has always maintain a tight grip on the military.

In Chinese dynastic period, the Emperor/civilian government would have inside representative to monitor the military. There is a constant vigilant and many other mechanism in-place to prevent military revolt. The military class are for most of the time put down and made subordinate to the civilian bureaucracy.

Consequently there are few incident of military coup in Chinese history.

Following that tradition, CCP command of the PLA is meant to stress the absolute civilian control and commandment of the loyalty of the military.

 

[chauism]

My friend, are you seriously telling me that CCP will remain in power always?

Never happened before in Chinese history, heck, in world history.



"We chose to allow the CCP"

Hence, when you chose CCP to step down, it will step down, right?

I never say it will stay like this forever but in a forseeable future it definitely will. It is the same hypothesis as whether India will dissolve into many small states, or US will break up. Hey, that did happen in the history.

 

[empirefighter]

Well i agree both with some Chinese members and bussard on here . The CCP is indeed the ruling party in china, so the army /military ought to listen to /follow the ruling party /government /presidents orders like it does in the West and everywhere else. So nothing different /special about that. in this regard, i agree with Chinese members here.

However. Bussard is correct when he says corruption /nepotism and favoritism in the military and party can indeed be a big threat to the party survival /control over the Army /country. If the party doesn't evolve /reforms then it too will be consumed by these 3 great ills i mentioned and topple as well just like the party toppled it's predecessor KMT before it rose to power. So I agree with bussard that as Lee Kwan yu said : "Either you make fundamental changes, and change power by consensus, or there will be a revolution with violence." that's indeed a very important statement which the CCP has to bare in mind.

Also the main problem with the CCP just like with any other communist one party state (like Vietnam. North Korea or Cambodia) is that the Party comes before the country /state and the party is above both the constitution and everything else. In short, the Party is the state. reason corruption often gets spirals out of the party control since there are no independent/authoritative checks and balances who can surpervise the party itself. Any public criticism against the party (especially by public individuals, high ranking official, citizen) is seen as an attack against the country itself, not just the party. That's a very wrong system, which means even n ultra patriotic Chinese or Vietnamese citizen who loves his country but despise the ruling party will be considered a traitor /liberal outcast etc and treated accordingly /discarded. Anybody can love his country but still despise the party, that shouldn't be considered an offence at all. So i think the CCP just like any other one party communist state ought to reform in some aspects, else at 1 point when the positives they have contributed falls short of the negatives they too might be toppled as they did with the former ruling party. what goes around comes around. adapt and change else change will come to you by force.

In conclusion, I will say the biggest difference between the communist one party system and other multi party democracies is that, the military is so politicised in one party regimes that it owes it's allegiance/serves tje party first before even the country. For example, if the party was in danger of losing power. The CCP /VCP etc can call in the army for help (like they did during the Tienanmen square massacre) to maintain power irregardless of the consequences to the country , while in a multi party democracy, there's no way/guatanter will listen to the parties call since it had little to no business in politics. So yes communist one party regimes have more political control /loyalty over the Army.

In Chinese eyes，CCP is not just a party，it is more like a ruling class of a dynasty.
In our past dynasties，the elites controlled the country，if you were good enough，nomatter which class you came from，even you were very humble，you still can join the elites to be officals，all the officials were commanded by the emperor who had absloute power，if the emperor was too bad，the people would rebel and the rebel leader became new emperor. That was Chinese politics. In the past， we were traped in this circle until the UK came. To be honest，our past political system is very successful，but it has several fatal disadvantages.1.the emperor held his crown until he died；2.the emperor had absolute power；3.the officials corruption ；4.no trustful justice，the judgement was decided by the officials not the judges.
Right now，PRC is like a dynasty，CCP officials are elites who control the country，the people can be promoted if you are good enough and can join the CCP. The differences are： 1.we donot have emperor，our president donot have absolute power，the power are in the hands of politiburo which means 7 men now. 2.the president hold the position for just 10 years. 3.corruption exists as every country，but the corruption decreases gradully since the CCP is very serious about corruption. 4. The justice system improves a lot and becomes trustful.
Thanks for the invention of Internet，it is very hard to rule thousands of cities and tens of thousands of towns without Internet，there were many corruption and dark incidents before，the local officials can cover the bad thing，now it is high political risk to do that.
Conslusion：
1.CCP is the group of elites，it pretends to be a party，but it is far beyond a normal party.
2.we Chinese donot accept muti parties，because in history，different ruling groups with different ideas attacked each other in front of the emperor，the emperor could not do anything and the whole dynasty slowly died ，this happened several times. Any educated Chinese is very familiar with our own history，that is why we think muti parties system is a nightmare for a country as big as us. Taiwan example teaches us muti parties is a mess in Chinese society， one party is good and stable，the best thing is：one party system have to bear all the responsibilites and it cannot make any excuse to blame other party.
3.the politiburo of CCP is the Chinese emperor，the PLA loyal to the emperor is very natural，PRC is a dynasty，CCP which is the emperor creates the PRC dynasty and builds the PLA which is the emperor guards， CCP lost its power=PRC dies=PLA dies，that is huge different between us and other countries，maybe it is hard to understand，but it is very NATURAL from our view.

 

[mike2000 is back]

In Chinese eyes，CCP is not just a party，it is more like a ruling class of a dynasty.
In our past dynasties，the elites controlled the country，if you were good enough，nomatter which class you came from，even you were very humble，you still can join the elites to be officals，all the officials were commanded by the emperor who had absloute power，if the emperor was too bad，the people would rebel and the rebel leader became new emperor. That was Chinese politics. In the past， we were traped in this circle until the UK came. To be honest，our past political system is very successful，but it has several fatal disadvantages.1.the emperor held his crown until he died；2.the emperor had absolute power；3.the officials corruption ；4.no trustful justice，the judgement was decided by the officials not the judges.
Right now，PRC is like a dynasty，CCP officials are elites who control the country，the people can be promoted if you are good enough and can join the CCP. The differences are： 1.we donot have emperor，our president donot have absolute power，the power are in the hands of politiburo which means 7 men now. 2.the president hold the position for just 10 years. 3.corruption exists as every country，but the corruption decreases gradully since the CCP is very serious about corruption. 4. The justice system improves a lot and becomes trustful.
Thanks for the invention of Internet，it is very hard to rule thousands of cities and tens of thousands of towns without Internet，there were many corruption and dark incidents before，the local officials can cover the bad thing，now it is high political risk to do that.
Conslusion：
1.CCP is the group of elites，it pretends to be a party，but it is far beyond a normal party.
2.we Chinese donot accept muti parties，because in history，different ruling groups with different ideas attacked each other in front of the emperor，the emperor could not do anything and the whole dynasty slowly died ，this happened several times. Any educated Chinese is very familiar with our own history，that is why we think muti parties system is a nightmare for a country as big as us. Taiwan example teaches us muti parties is a mess in Chinese society， one party is good and stable，the best thing is：one party system have to bear all the responsibilites and it cannot make any excuse to blame other party.
3.the politiburo of CCP is the Chinese emperor，the PLA loyal to the emperor is very natural，PRC is a dynasty，CCP which is the emperor creates the PRC dynasty and builds the PLA which is the emperor guards， CCP lost its power=PRC dies=PLA dies，that is huge different between us and other countries，maybe it is hard to understand，but it is very NATURAL from our view.

I agree with some of your points, but i totally disagree with the last part. You said if CCP lost its power =PRC dies=PLA dies . That i think you are completely wrong bro. Only princeilings, party officials and their relatives will want people to believe that and justify their rule BY ALL MEANS NECESSARY. No, if/when CCP falls (it will sooner or later as nothing is permanent, but not anytime soon though) that doesn't mean the end of China, nope. As i said several times before, people and parties come and go but the country ALWAYS remains China existed and did quite well in the past centuries without the ccp/communist party (a western invented ideology by the way.lol), it too will continue existing when the CCP falls /disappears. Funny thing is had the CCP failed to topple the Kmt, then the KMT will probably still be ruling China today or at least be a major political party like its in Taiwan, hence I'm sure many of you will also be claiming the same thing, as you people will have been supporting the ruling party as well.

In short, the last thing I believe is that some politicians /ruling elites try to frame /deceive people into believing their party and rule is equal to the country, no it's not, it has never been the case before, a country is always above any political party /ruling elite, even 1000years from now the country will still be standing /there while all these ruling elites and their parties will have long disappeared /forgotten in the bin of history. So no party is indispensable, the people are the ones who are indispensable and who make the country not otherwise.

 

[empirefighter]

I agree with some of your points, but i totally disagree with the last part. You said if CCP lost its power =PRC dies=PLA dies . That i think you are completely wrong bro. Only princeilings, party officials and their relatives will want people to believe that and justify their rule BY ALL MEANS NECESSARY. No, if/when CCP falls (it will sooner or later as nothing is permanent, but not anytime soon though) that doesn't mean the end of China, nope. As i said several times before, people and parties come and go but the country ALWAYS remains China existed and did quite well in the past centuries without the ccp/communist party (a western invented ideology by the way.lol), it too will continue existing when the CCP falls /disappears. Funny thing is had the CCP failed to topple the Kmt, then the KMT will probably still be ruling China today or at least be a major political party like its in Taiwan, hence I'm sure many of you will also be claiming the same thing, as you people will have been supporting the ruling party as well.

In short, the last thing I believe is that some politicians /ruling elites try to frame /deceive people into believing their party and rule is equal to the country, no it's not, it has never been the case before, a country is always above any political party /ruling elite, even 1000years from now the country will still be standing /there while all these ruling elites and their parties will have long disappeared /forgotten in the bin of history. So no party is indispensable, the people are the ones who are indispensable and who make the country not otherwise.

Actually，bro，the last part is the ESSENCE .
1. The CCP dies=PRC dies=PLA dies.
2. PRC is not equal to China fully，PLA isnot equal to Chinese army fully. China name was ROC 66years ago and Qing dynasty 103 years ago.
3.PRC is equal to TODAYs China，PLA is equal to TODAYs Chinese Army. But in the future，who knows what the new name for China and Chinese army.

If you get the logic，you will understand why Chinese donot think wrong when CCP as only one party rule the country，why Chinese donot think wrong when PLA only loyal to CCP. We donot think CCP have to get the power by election，because CCP created the PRC and ALL the ruling power of PRC belong to CCP without any question. If any party or organization want to get the power，you have to build the army to destroy PRC as the PRC did to the ROC，then you can get the power by building a new China with a new name.

I have to point out，maybe you foreigners think it is weird or strange，even you think we all are brainwashed，if you think so，you are toally wrong. In Chinese view ，one central goverment controlled by one emperor（politiburo）is the only way to keep our big civilization alive，the emperor represents BOTH the country and the civilization，the army have to loyal to the emperor to guard BOTH the country and the civilization.

One more thing，what I said is NOTHING with CCP brainwash，it is the Chinese philosiphy far before the CCP，wish you can understand what I said since it is very hard to explain to foreigner because of different culture.
You can think our politiburo is equal to your queen but with true power，if no queen or king anymore，the UK and the royal UK army gone，but Britain will still exist.

 

[gambit]

As long as the PLA is institutionally beholden to a party, no matter its name or ideological foundation, the PLA will never be a truly professional military. It may have the appearance of a professional military, but that is the extent of it.

 

[gambit]

Well i agree both with some Chinese members and bussard on here . The CCP is indeed the ruling party in china, so the army /military ought to listen to /follow the ruling party /government /presidents orders like it does in the West and everywhere else. So nothing different /special about that. in this regard, i agree with Chinese members here.

This blurring of the line between partisan ideology and government is politically dangerous.

A 'party' is a human organization with transparent, meaning obvious, ideological and political motivations for all to see. A 'government' is and should be an apolitical structure containing the necessary mechanisms to maintain order in the country. Those mechanisms are institutions like the police departments, the legislature, the judicial system, the regulations that outlines who and how to build roads or inspect food or fixing the sewer system, etc. And the military is a member of this supposedly apolitical structure.

The word 'professional' is problematic for those who have never served in the military. In one perspective, a 'professional' is one who offers his skills to what the highest bidder. There is nothing dishonorable about this. But when it comes to national defense, a truly professional military is one that is apolitical and takes orders from the government, not the political party that is in control of the government.

Example: A civil engineer maybe a Republican in partisan politics, but as long as he is employed by the government as a civil engineer, his actions should be dictated by the laws of physics, not by the ideas that are espoused by the Republican Party. The government said the traffic lights in a neighborhood needs upgrades to compensate for increased population. If the civil engineer decide to do a poor job because the demographics of that neighborhood is largely Democrats, the civil engineer is in violation of the ethics of his profession and of the moral responsibilities he bears as to serve all citizens regardless of ideological credo.

The issue here is that the PLA have no philosophical directive to serve the Chinese people but to be a political enforcement arm of the Chinese Communist Party, which is 'communist' only in name, not in practice. At any time at the party's whims, the PLA could and will act like that Republican civil engineer who endangers lives just because he does not like Democrats in the neighborhood. The Chinese members here do not see this as ANY form of corruption, but those in the West who grew up with continuous reinforcement of the separation of partisan ideology from governmental institutions that are apparently designed to serve all citizens regardless of partisan affiliations, this is corruption of the worst kind.

 

[Jlaw]

To the indian guy, I wouldn't worry about China. I be worry about your beloved sub-continent call India by your former British master.

India is going to split up within 20 years.

 

[gambit]

The CCP is a representation of the people. We chose to allow the CCP to manage the people using the PLA as a protector of the people right and property.

Wrong. No political party ever is representative of 100% of the population.

 

[JSCh]

This blurring of the line between partisan ideology and government is politically dangerous.

A 'party' is a human organization with transparent, meaning obvious, ideological and political motivations for all to see. A 'government' is and should be an apolitical structure containing the necessary mechanisms to maintain order in the country. Those mechanisms are institutions like the police departments, the legislature, the judicial system, the regulations that outlines who and how to build roads or inspect food or fixing the sewer system, etc. And the military is a member of this supposedly apolitical structure.

The word 'professional' is problematic for those who have never served in the military. In one perspective, a 'professional' is one who offers his skills to what the highest bidder. There is nothing dishonorable about this. But when it comes to national defense, a truly professional military is one that is apolitical and takes orders from the government, not the political party that is in control of the government.

Example: A civil engineer maybe a Republican in partisan politics, but as long as he is employed by the government as a civil engineer, his actions should be dictated by the laws of physics, not by the ideas that are espoused by the Republican Party. The government said the traffic lights in a neighborhood needs upgrades to compensate for increased population. If the civil engineer decide to do a poor job because the demographics of that neighborhood is largely Democrats, the civil engineer is in violation of the ethics of his profession and of the moral responsibilities he bears as to serve all citizens regardless of ideological credo.

The issue here is that the PLA have no philosophical directive to serve the Chinese people but to be a political enforcement arm of the Chinese Communist Party, which is 'communist' only in name, not in practice. At any time at the party's whims, the PLA could and will act like that Republican civil engineer who endangers lives just because he does not like Democrats in the neighborhood. The Chinese members here do not see this as ANY form of corruption, but those in the West who grew up with continuous reinforcement of the separation of partisan ideology from governmental institutions that are apparently designed to serve all citizens regardless of partisan affiliations, this is corruption of the worst kind.

In China, CCP could be seen to be equivalent to the government, the nation.
Your example do not apply to China.
There is no artificial division like Republican and Democrat in China.
Therefore an engineer working for the government or CCP, would not be biased against anyone because there is no division.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

To the indian guy, I wouldn't worry about China. I be worry about your beloved sub-continent call India by your former British master.

India is going to split up within 20 years.

Keep dreaming.

In China, CCP could be seen to be equivalent to the government, the nation.
Your example do not apply to China.
There is no artificial division like Republican and Democrat in China.
Therefore an engineer working for the government or CCP, would not be biased against anyone because there is no division.

CCP is indeed factional to certain extent. Everyone in the government has to do lip service to communism, socialism. Also, many kind of ideas are simply excluded from the CCP.