China may export J-10B fighters with Russian AL31FN-S3 engines to Pakistan

[Darth Vader]

You know.. I thought I wouldn't respond to you ... but then I see posts like these on multiple threads .. and I usually hold back when it comes to brethren but I guess we have to make an exception in your case ...

If China were to arm JH-7's with BVR's and nothing but BVR's -- by your logic it would become the best aircraft in the subcontinent .... atleast in BVR combat ..

BVR arena isn't as simple as that .. I've been following debates surrounding BVR's from the days where discussions were held around the topics of PAF forcing the IAF in to WVR, because we didn't have any "declared" BVR capability at the time .. then there were many rumors of the weapons that are declared stand off A2G weapons ... were actually BVR A2A weapons .. that Pakistan had somehow reverse engineered .... until the AMRAAM deal with the blk-52's was signed and then we had SD-10 with JFT's ...

When your talking about BVR, first off you have to know where your opponent is and then get a lock and fire ... so first step is detection /tracking and then lock and fire ... the factor that you brush off all the time i.e RCS is the basic dictator of when an aircraft is going to be detected along with the radar that you field ... as far as the general calculations go .. SU-30 MKI's will see F-16's / JFT's around the same range as the F-16's/JFT's will detect/track the MKI's .. then it comes down to your weapons .. carrying capability matters but then again .. what type of weapon you have matters a heck of a lot more ... With Aim-120 C5 and SD-10 A, we have very credible BVR weaponry .. you can go about and see senior members and professionals and usually when the discussion is whats the best BVR pound for pound in the subcontinent ... the usual inclination is towards the AMRAAM, and by whats already in the public domain ... SD-10 A isn't far behind and it already has another version coming out soon enough ... the last thing you have to have is .. how much time will the BVR fight even last -- you have two aircrafts that detect each other at 120 odd Km's and fire at 40 Km range to maximize the capability of their weapons ... if both the weapons fail ... what will be the time frame in which they get in to WVR ... mere seconds if you know a little of relative velocity -- though we learned it back in the good old days where you had matric and not these goody toshoo O levels stuff ...

So what happens to a a bigger aircraft, that is granted ... more maneuverable --- but you have on the other hand aircrafts that are alot easier to fly in the hands of an airforce ... whose breakfast, lunch and dinner is about WVR ... because we didn't really have anything to work with back 5-7 years ... hence the extra focus on WVR and the results show .. when the likes of F-22 pilots from USAF are out parsing the PAF pilots on how good and battle hardened they are (we were using PG's in those exercises (indus viper I think) .. that is correct the freakin F-7 PG!!!) ---so you can figure out the rest by yourself ...

There is a huge list of cognitive biases ... which includes something called "anchoring bias" in which a person usually values a piece of information alot more then the "whole picture" --

so I urge you to see the whole picture and maybe look around and see a couple discussions from senior members around the topic ... You can find alot on the information pool thread of JF-17, the exercises thread, the thread on F-16 and the JF-17 multi role thread ...

One Point BVR isnt at simple as much you guys make it , BVR if fired from long distance it also gives opponent chance to evade because distance comes in play , To cover that number of Missiles are fired but at with a time gap so even if your opponent evades your 1st missile , he wont be able to lose 2nd or 3rd because he will lose his energy in evading 1st missile
Now Coming to Pakistan and India , US is depending alot on BVR Or other long range stand off missiles because of the its location , in Pakistan in india equation it will result will come in seconds and mostly it will be WVR



Now J10 and J11 are good platforms no doubt about it But All you guys who are talking if india gets Rafale Paf will go for j10 or j11 , No doubt Rafale is one of the best 4.5 gen jet available in market , Can j10 or J11 match in its performance
Because as when ever someone talks about air battle most of the members here talking about MKI and migs RCS , even there were some news about J11 has less rcs than Sukhoi family still going for that ,
You Wont See Rafale joining IAF before 2018 to 2019 So best time to upgrade fleet with a newer jet and than some same funds to go on shopping

 

[Tipu7]

I don't know of any figures that have been floating ... but from the Chinese forums we do know that the J-11 B in clean configuration has a RCS of 3m2

I was on RCS thread too in which respective value of aircrafts were mentioned...... both UF and Rafale has RCS of order of 0.01-0.001..... J10b figures were not mentioned that's why I asked........ 3m square is big value........ provided that RCS of current 4thG aircrafts in our inventory has RCS equal or less than 1 .......

 

[abdulbarijan]

One Point BVR isnt at simple as much you guys make it , BVR if fired from long distance it also gives opponent chance to evade because distance comes in play , To cover that number of Missiles are fired but at with a time gap so even if your opponent evades your 1st missile , he wont be able to lose 2nd or 3rd because he will lose his energy in evading 1st missile
Now Coming to Pakistan and India , US is depending alot on BVR Or other long range stand off missiles because of the its location , in Pakistan in india equation it will result will come in seconds and mostly it will be WVR



Now J10 and J11 are good platforms no doubt about it But All you guys who are talking if india gets Rafale Paf will go for j10 or j11 , No doubt Rafale is one of the best 4.5 gen jet available in market , Can j10 or J11 match in its performance
Because as when ever someone talks about air battle most of the members here talking about MKI and migs RCS , even there were some news about J11 has less rcs than Sukhoi family still going for that ,
You Wont See Rafale joining IAF before 2018 to 2019 So best time to upgrade fleet with a newer jet and than some same funds to go on shopping

Add in the EW capabilities, the ground based radars, AWACS, C4I along with the Surface to air missile defense and the discussion becomes even more complicated ...
I find the point of J-10B and J-11 alot more interesting though ... As far as the RCS debate goes @Viper0011. was kind enough to mention the RCS of J-10B and as far as we know the RCS of J-11B is 3m2 .. @Tipu7 -- 3m2 may seem bigger considering what we have in the F-16's and JF-17's ... however you should look at the frontal RCS's of the flanker series ... Up to 20m2 figures have been quoted ... even the latest SU-35 is supposed to be around 2m2 with heavy usage of RAM etc.

Regarding making a decision before India does ... well you may have a point ... but It is very unlike PAF .. PAF is more geared towards a reactive policy, hence only if the IAF goes for MMRCA .. will we go for a newer platform ... unless ofcourse PAF decides to make an exception this time around ... but when you look at the spending especially from the navy for 8 odd subs .. its highly unlikely that PAF will be going on a big heavy shopping spree anytime soon ...

 

[Darth Vader]

Add in the EW capabilities, the ground based radars, AWACS, C4I along with the Surface to air missile defense and the discussion becomes even more complicated ...
I find the point of J-10B and J-11 alot more interesting though ... As far as the RCS debate goes @Viper0011. was kind enough to mention the RCS of J-10B and as far as we know the RCS of J-11B is 3m2 .. @Tipu7 -- 3m2 may seem bigger considering what we have in the F-16's and JF-17's ... however you should look at the frontal RCS's of the flanker series ... Up to 20m2 figures have been quoted ... even the latest SU-35 is supposed to be around 2m2 with heavy usage of RAM etc.

Regarding making a decision before India does ... well you may have a point ... but It is very unlike PAF .. PAF is more geared towards a reactive policy, hence only if the IAF goes for MMRCA .. will we go for a newer platform ... unless ofcourse PAF decides to make an exception this time around ... but when you look at the spending especially from the navy for 8 odd subs .. its highly unlikely that PAF will be going on a big heavy shopping spree anytime soon ...

RCS change depending on the loadout of jet too , But one thing is lets just Say PAF and India get Rafale in 2017 in difference of few months as most members think soo , and Pakistan and India go into Battle , the most important of Air 2 Air is the experience of the pilot on that jet , So For me it mostly both of these will depend on the machines unlike in the past were PAF had to depend on WVR , Yes WVR will come into Play butRafale is a really agile platform and advance platform, if PAF had chosen this platform today we wouldnt be discussing this , as for AWACS will come into play but Pakistan lacks a High end Sam , which will play a crucial part in upcoming battles so for now its 50/50

 

[Abingdonboy]

You Wont See Rafale joining IAF before 2018 to 2019 So best time to upgrade fleet with a newer jet and than some same funds to go on shopping

France has assured India of deliveries of their Rafales starting 2017.

 

[dy1022]

We have 140KN+ WS-10B For J10B right now! Bye Bye AL-31F,X,N ...

 

[Sulman Badshah]

We have 140KN+ WS-10B For J10B right now! Bye Bye AL-31F,X,N ...

isn't WS10 B is in testing phase (not in production one )

 

[alee92nawaz]

Add in the EW capabilities, the ground based radars, AWACS, C4I along with the Surface to air missile defense and the discussion becomes even more complicated ...
I find the point of J-10B and J-11 alot more interesting though ... As far as the RCS debate goes @Viper0011. was kind enough to mention the RCS of J-10B and as far as we know the RCS of J-11B is 3m2 .. @Tipu7 -- 3m2 may seem bigger considering what we have in the F-16's and JF-17's ... however you should look at the frontal RCS's of the flanker series ... Up to 20m2 figures have been quoted ... even the latest SU-35 is supposed to be around 2m2 with heavy usage of RAM etc.

Regarding making a decision before India does ... well you may have a point ... but It is very unlike PAF .. PAF is more geared towards a reactive policy, hence only if the IAF goes for MMRCA .. will we go for a newer platform ... unless ofcourse PAF decides to make an exception this time around ... but when you look at the spending especially from the navy for 8 odd subs .. its highly unlikely that PAF will be going on a big heavy shopping spree anytime soon ...

Is j10b deal still on ? Or just hoax ?

China may export its J-10B fighter equipped with the Russian-built AL31FN-S3 engine to Pakistan and other potential buyers from Asia, Latin America and Africa in the near future, writes the Kanwa Defense Review, a Chinese-language military magazine based in Canada.

Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group last year began the mass production of the J-10B fighters. A total of 14 of the jets have already been painted with PLA Air Force markings and turned over to the military while at least 10 aircraft are undergoing test flights. Kanwa said the PLA Air Force will eventually commission 24 J-10Bs to form a fighter regiment before the end of the year.

Designed as the upgraded version of the J-10 fighter, the J-10B is the first domestically designed aircraft fitted with a diverterless supersonic inlet to shield the engine compressor blades from radar waves. The article also noticed that new electronic warfare systems can also been in front of the canards and atop the vertical stabilizer. With infra-red search and track sensors, the aircraft can also carry out reconnaissance operations.

Russia has agreed to sell advanced AL31FN engines to China to improve the J-10B’s power systems and the first batch of the engines is expected this year. This will increase the life of the aircraft from the J-10A’s 500 flight hours to the J-10B’s 750 hours. As China begins to introduce more Russian engines in the future, all J-10B aircraft will be fitted with the AL31FN.

Source : Want China Times

* That' s the engine, which is game changer. Same engine is used in all Russian and Chinese stealth fighters/bombers. Plus same same type used in SU30/35. Same engine is modified for TVC. If Russia approve this engine, then for sure this plane will be in Pak fleet. If PAF has no other issues.

Is j10b deal still on ?????????

 

[Tipu7]

PAF is not going for J10b ........ Chill........
Who needs J10b when Su35S is coming ....

 

[volatile]

Is this TVC ?

 

[sathya]

PAF is not going for J10b ........ Chill........
Who needs J10b when Su35S is coming ....

You should haved said who needs j10b when stealth fighter is being planned for.

View attachment 259455

Is this TVC ?

That's the right tail

 

[Beta-Fighter]

PAF is not going for J10b ........ Chill........
Who needs J10b when Su35S is coming ....

5 years you wasted in dreaming for J10 and now another 5 years for dreaming Su-35?

 

[janu.bravo]

5 years you wasted in dreaming for J10 and now another 5 years for dreaming Su-35?

ATLEAST NOT WASTING 15 YEARS FOR MRCA

 

[Imran Khan]

lets talk abut j-11b

 

[Akasa]

PAF is not going for J10b ........ Chill........
Who needs J10b when Su35S is coming ....

The J-10B and Su-35 occupy two diverging niches and have the potential to complement one another quite effectively.

There is a reason why the PLAAF is purchasing both J-10Bs and J-11Ds.

We have 140KN+ WS-10B For J10B right now! Bye Bye AL-31F,X,N ...

I'd like to point out that there is no photographic evidence that suggests the new engines are indeed the WS-10G derivative. It could be a WS-10A, for all intents an purposes.