China may export J-10B fighters with Russian AL31FN-S3 engines to Pakistan

[Blue Marlin]

Dont be surprised to hear that by saying Asian country PAF official was actually referring to Malaysia / Indonesia.

i doubt Malaysia will need them, and Indonesia does need them but Indonesia and Pakistan are good friends but i doubt such a deal will accrue, but in the future? possibly

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

when you say m2k's does that mean a upgrades su30-mki?

if so then i can say that will not happen as india is having problems with the su30. russia even offered india the su30 and still no reply. so the su30 is of the cards. but upgrades will not be though

M2K = Mirage 2000's

IAF already operates them so there are some 300 M2K-9's available in the market.

There was a report in one of the Indian news papers that Russia is willing to supply IAF additional SU-30MKI in fly away condition. This is to expedite the upcoming shortage of IAF aircraft.

 

[Blue Marlin]

M2K = Mirage 2000's

IAF already operates them so there are some 300 M2K-9's available in the market.

There was a report in one of the Indian news papers that Russia is willing to supply IAF additional SU-30MKI in fly away condition. This is to expedite the upcoming shortage of IAF aircraft.

mirage 2000 is a good airframe but i doubt iaf will get 300 mirage 2000's iaf does need the su30 and russia produces better quality su30's as indian airframes tend to come with problems. so thats an option but will india take it ? i don't think so.

 

[princefaisal]

as i already said we have many members who have phupha chacha taya etc in military amazingly some of them tell respective members about top secret projects and on contrary there are some members whose phupha chacha and taya lie to them so they automatically come up with opposite conclusions
.. so I won't comment on that since it's quite a fun hearing new story every day.

Just for retrospect j-10 was first offered in 2006 to the then president of pakistan general Musharraf then in 2009 it was said the deal for 40 aircrafts have been signed but later in 2010 it was said by the then ACM that the deal hasn't been signed yet but it will be finalized during same year for 36 aircrafts... then there were rumors of delivering first aircraft in 2012... then in 2013 a report came stating deliveries will start from next year.. then there were rumors that paf will decide the purchase when India will decided the winner of mmrca but then again nothing m.. nada

Now you can connect the dots... but still if you want to believe otherwise up to you... but j10 deal is following the same course of u-boats and fate won't be different either

Problem with the J-10 seems to be related with engine issues & upgradation process, which were the main cause for delays. J-10B production started in July 2013 and J-10C production started in 2015. Similarly Jf-17 block-II & block-III will have the engine issues due to delays in RD-93MA & WS-13 or WS-17. Also new WZ-16 turboshaft engine (~1,500kw) for WZ-10 helicopter will take some time and hence will result late deliveries. Please note that High thrust-to-weight is essential to super-maneuvering fighters because it not only avoids many situations in which an aircraft can stall (such as during vertical climbing maneuvers), but when the aircraft does stall, the high thrust-to-weight ratio allows the pilot to sharply increase forward speed even as the aircraft pitches nose-down; this reduces the angle the nose must pitch down in order to meet the velocity vector, thus recovering more quickly from the stall. This allows stalls to be controlled; the pilot will intentionally stall the aircraft with a hard maneuver, then recover quickly with the high engine power.

Regarding the performance of J-10 against F-16 C/D, yes J-10A (with 123kN engine, without AESA, without DSI) would be inferior in performance but J-10C is quiet different aircraft with maximum thrust of 30,800lb (137kN), AESA radar, semi stealth capability, IRST, DSI input, upgraded avionics & upgraded electronic warfare system. Now J-10C is ready and its performance can be checked against F-16 block-52.

 

[Mani2020]

Problem with the J-10 seems to be related with engine issues & upgradation process, which were the main cause for delays. J-10B production started in July 2013 and J-10C production started in 2015. Similarly Jf-17 block-II & block-III will have the engine issues due to delays in RD-93MA & WS-13 or WS-17. Also new WZ-16 turboshaft engine (~1,500kw) for WZ-10 helicopter will take some time and hence will result late deliveries. Please note that High thrust-to-weight is essential to super-maneuvering fighters because it not only avoids many situations in which an aircraft can stall (such as during vertical climbing maneuvers), but when the aircraft does stall, the high thrust-to-weight ratio allows the pilot to sharply increase forward speed even as the aircraft pitches nose-down; this reduces the angle the nose must pitch down in order to meet the velocity vector, thus recovering more quickly from the stall. This allows stalls to be controlled; the pilot will intentionally stall the aircraft with a hard maneuver, then recover quickly with the high engine power.

Regarding the performance of J-10 against F-16 C/D, yes J-10A (with 123kN engine, without AESA, without DSI) would be inferior in performance but J-10C is quiet different aircraft with maximum thrust of 30,800lb (137kN), AESA radar, semi stealth capability, IRST, DSI input, upgraded avionics & upgraded electronic warfare system. Now J-10C is ready and its performance can be checked against F-16 block-52.

Firstly you can't compare the aircrafts just on the basis of thrust to weight ratio... your whole reply was related to thrust to weight ratio.
Secondly Russian engines were there when the aircraft flew for the first time, had there been any need on paf's part getting Russian engines wouldn't have been difficult as they were already supplying us engines for jf17... and we have started to have a good relationship with them
Besides if paf is really thinking to go for j31 then there is no point in jumping onto j10 that too in limited numbers... Besides paf is already interested in used f16s as explained in my earlier posts

@Mani2020[/USER] deal was never signed in 2009. The deal is pretty much on and running.

that's exactly what I said zarvan that deal wasn't signed in 2009, everything till now has just been based upon rumors and these rumors kept on developing on year to year basis.. had there been any truth deal would have been materialized...

 

[CHI RULES]

Hats off what a nice reply you stole my worlds.


our another all weather friend Turkey will do the upgrades not free but as a soft load as Turkey did if before.

As off my sources PAF also negotiating with UAE to get used mirages and F16 because they need new fighters and looking for a buyer. Comments Pls

for Mirages may be but UAE will not sell block 60 F16s

 

[ArsalanKhan21]

Besides if paf is really thinking to go for j31 then there is no point in jumping onto j10 that too in limited numbers

The fifth generation J-31 should be assembled/manufactured in Pakistan by ending JF-17 production and replacing it with J-31 in early 2020s. Pakistan also needs J-10C in the meantime to counter Rafale and more Su-30MKI .

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Firstly you can't compare the aircrafts just on the basis of thrust to weight ratio... your whole reply was related to thrust to weight ratio.
Secondly Russian engines were there when the aircraft flew for the first time, had there been any need on paf's part getting Russian engines wouldn't have been difficult as they were already supplying us engines for jf17... and we have started to have a good relationship with them
Besides if paf is really thinking to go for j31 then there is no point in jumping onto j10 that too in limited numbers... Besides paf is already interested in used f16s as explained in my earlier posts

Bro,
Aircraft performance is always judged by the thrust to weight ratio. However some other things also help like larger wings which give it additional lift though it also increases weight.

Russian engines that were being used by Russian aircraft were not available to Pakistan. JF -17 uses a de-rated engine which was designed keeping in light Indian objections and sale of Mig-29's. These engines were also not given to Pakistan directly but reexported through China.

 

[Mani2020]

The fifth generation J-31 should be assembled/manufactured in Pakistan by ending JF-17 production and replacing it with J-31 in early 2020s. Pakistan also needs J-10C in the meantime to counter Rafale and more Su-30MKI .

What is needed under ideal circumstances and what can be afforded both are different things ..besides paf currently is too consumed with jf17 and related improvements as you yourself stated once paf would be done with jf17 they will shift there focus to j31 till then paf wouldn't mess things up ...as I already mentioned paf will do with f16s similar to what they did with mirages that is buy used ones and maintain a fleet in good numbers besides as its being believed that j-10 doesn't offer much over f16s so getting a new aircraft of similar capabilities won't make sense

As of now paf would ideally like to maintain a fleet of 4 different types I.e. f16s and jf17s in large numbers f7 PGs and limited numbers of j31

It doesn't make sense for paf to buy 36 j-10s and then 30 to 40 j31s ...increasing the types with such limited numbers will only create difficulties for an air force like paf that has budget constraints

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

The fifth generation J-31 should be assembled/manufactured in Pakistan by ending JF-17 production and replacing it with J-31 in early 2020s. Pakistan also needs J-10C in the meantime to counter Rafale and more Su-30MKI .

There is still room for 4++ gen fighters in the world to compete with 5 gen. This is the reason Boeing has upgraded the F-15 & F-18's. Same is the thing with Russia Su-35's and Mig-35's. Euro Fighter block 3, Saab Gripen NG and Rafale are being purchased and upgraded.

J-31's and other 5 Gen aircraft are not going to available till 2020 - 2030 and would last till 2050. Where as the 4++ gen are also looking to be in the market till this time.

 

[Mani2020]

Bro,
Aircraft performance is always judged by the thrust to weight ratio. However some other things also help like larger wings which give it additional lift though it also increases weight.

Russian engines that were being used by Russian aircraft were not available to Pakistan. JF -17 uses a de-rated engine which was designed keeping in light Indian objections and sale of Mig-29's. These engines were also not given to Pakistan directly but reexported through China.

You are ignoring the role of avionics and weapons here... A lot of technology used in jf-17s have found its way from j10 besides jf17s carry similar weapons to what j10 can so in this regard j10s doesn't offer much over jf17. As far as engines from Russia are concerned with little effort and ever improving relationships it wouldn't have been much difficult ...if rd-93 were routed through China so was the case with engines used for j10s ...you need to understand that as India is moving towards Europe and America Russia too needs to play her cards which she already is trying to do...the last thing Russia would want is to make China angry because they are the largest importer of Russian tech although they are slowly and surely moving away but still this is evident from the fact that instead of China cancelling the orders of su27 and imitating su27 to develop j11s still Russia is willing to provide her latest tech to China ...with russia 's economy and large military requirements they need customers ...many countries have already moved away from them under NATO's influence ...

Besides Chinese engines are not mature yet may it be jf17 specific or j10 ones ...they require time for rigorous testing and producing results on the other hand Russian ones have proven their worth

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

You are ignoring the role of avionics and weapons here...

Bro,
Avionics and weapon systems have no effect on aircraft performance (Flight Characteristics). They are sub systems that enhance efficiency.

A lot of technology used in jf-17s have found its way from j10 besides jf17s carry similar weapons to what j10 can so in this regard j10s doesn't offer much over jf17.

Yes the technology and weapons systems are similar, but the performance characteristic of J-10 is very different the JF-17. Delta wing has increased payload and high altitude performance capability.

As far as engines from Russia are concerned with little effort and ever improving relationships it wouldn't have been much difficult ...if rd-93 were routed through China so was the case with engines used for j10s ...you need to understand that as India is moving towards Europe and America Russia too needs to play her cards which she already is trying to do...the last thing Russia would want is to make China angry because they are the largest importer of Russian tech although they are slowly and surely moving away but still this is evident from the fact that instead of China cancelling the orders of su27 and imitating su27 to develop j11s still Russia is willing to provide her latest tech to China ...with russia 's economy and large military requirements they need customers ...many countries have already moved away from them under NATO's influence ...

Now yes it is easier for PAF to get them but not in the past. JF-17 was considered rival to the Mig-29 giving it a engine that was for Mig-29's of IAF that had explicitly stated that the engines and this type of aircraft would not be sold to Pakistan and same was the case with Su-30MKI's. Now the engine that is being offered is the advance version improved by the data provided by China J-10 operation. This is a customized engine hence it has been given a new identity. This does not effect the original engine deal.

If you read PAF was refused Saab's due to Indian MMRCA as all those aircraft that were offered could not be part of Pakistan fighter procurement programs till the final was selected.

Besides Chinese engines are not mature yet may it be jf17 specific or j10 ones ...they require time for rigorous testing and producing results on the other hand Russian ones have proven their worth

That is going to mature in time as you say...

 

[Blue Marlin]

You are ignoring the role of avionics and weapons here... A lot of technology used in jf-17s have found its way from j10 besides jf17s carry similar weapons to what j10 can so in this regard j10s doesn't offer much over jf17. As far as engines from Russia are concerned with little effort and ever improving relationships it wouldn't have been much difficult ...if rd-93 were routed through China so was the case with engines used for j10s ...you need to understand that as India is moving towards Europe and America Russia too needs to play her cards which she already is trying to do...the last thing Russia would want is to make China angry because they are the largest importer of Russian tech although they are slowly and surely moving away but still this is evident from the fact that instead of China cancelling the orders of su27 and imitating su27 to develop j11s still Russia is willing to provide her latest tech to China ...with russia 's economy and large military requirements they need customers ...many countries have already moved away from them under NATO's influence ...

Besides Chinese engines are not mature yet may it be jf17 specific or j10 ones ...they require time for rigorous testing and producing results on the other hand Russian ones have proven their worth

Chinese engines are being tested on the jf17.
Paris Air Show 2015: JF-17 fighter flying with indigenous Chinese turbofan - IHS Jane's 360

 

[Mani2020]

Bro,
Avionics and weapon systems have no effect on aircraft performance (Flight Characteristics). They are sub systems that enhance efficiency.


Yes the technology and weapons systems are similar, but the performance characteristic of J-10 is very different the JF-17. Delta wing has increased payload and high altitude performance capability.



Now yes it is easier for PAF to get them but not in the past. JF-17 was considered rival to the Mig-29 giving it a engine that was for Mig-29's of IAF that had explicitly stated that the engines and this type of aircraft would not be sold to Pakistan and same was the case with Su-30MKI's. Now the engine that is being offered is the advance version improved by the data provided by China J-10 operation. This is a customized engine hence it has been given a new identity. This does not effect the original engine deal.

If you read PAF was refused Saab's due to Indian MMRCA as all those aircraft that were offered could not be part of Pakistan fighter procurement programs till the final was selected.


That is going to mature in time as you say...

When you talk about a fighter jet's performace you talk about complete package and not just aerodynamics because an aicraft with good aerodynamics is of no good if it doesnt have good avionics and weapons package... so everything was in that context

Regarding Saab gripen, no it wasn't because of Indian mmrca... if you monitor the course of it. It was early 2000s when it was evaluated by paf but then since USA lifted embargo we went for f16s as we were already operating them besides if you read or watch the interview of ACM tanveer he clearly stated that we can't handle such complex technology o Saab gripen at this point in time, now why he said that is another debate.

as per your post regarding Russians offering of a customized engine variant for j-10 exactly supports my point. If russia can offer this now why wouldnt have they in 2006 or so had paf showed intent, just a little push was required from China and Russia would have given it to China...

Since it was offered in 2006 and now it's 2015 we already have wasted 9 years and haven't yet finalized a thing because j-10 has never been our priority.. had it been paf would have reacted in a much more prompt way. even if there was something for j-10 offering of j31 now will make it disappear too.

Chinese engines are being tested on the jf17.
Paris Air Show 2015: JF-17 fighter flying with indigenous Chinese turbofan - IHS Jane's 360

Never denied that, did I? Being tested and been matured are two different things and like it has been said paf is quite satisfied with Russian engines so they won't be switching to Chinese engines.. mostly it would be for China's own use or for export to other countries in case prospects have any issues with Russian engines

 

[Blue Marlin]

When you talk about a fighter jet's performabe you talk about complete package and not just aerodynamics because an aicraft with good aerodynamics is of no good if it doesnt have good avionics and weapons package... so everything was in that context

Regarding Saab gripen, no it wasn't because of Indian mmrca... if you monitor the course of it. It was early 2000s when it was offered to paf and it was evaluated but then sine USA lifted embargo we went for f16s as we were already operating them besides if you read or watch the interview of ACM tanveer he clearly stated that we can't handle such complex technology o Saab gripen at this point in time, now why he said that is another debate.

as per your post regarding Russians offering of a customized engine variant for j-10 exactly supports my point. If russia can offer this now why wouldnt have they in 2006 or so had paf showed intent, just a little push was required from China and Russia would have given it to China...

Since it was offered in 2006 and now it's 2015 we already have wasted 9 years and haven't yet finalized a thing because j-10 has never been our priority.. had it been paf would have reacted in a much more prompt way. even if there was something for j-10 offering of j31 now will make it disappear too.


Never denied that, did I? Being tested and been matured are two different things and like it has been said paf is quite satisfied with Russian engines so they won't be switching to Chinese engines.. mostly it would be for China's own use or for export to other countries in case prospects have any issues with Russian engines

well you are going to be even more satisfied with the new chines engines. besides you need to get to know them any way . as the j31 will be powered by Chinese engines as the Russian engines are underpowered. so i would think Pakistan would get the Chinese engines to familiarise them selfs so when the j31 arrives Pakistan is just that one step more prepared for its arrival.