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China Lends Venezuela $20 Billion, Secures Oil Supply

Are you kidding?

Uh....He is right to a certain extent....

India has always been the forerunner of the Non-Aligned movement.....All its policies have been inclined to serve best its own interests ONLY....
India has not and will not tow the line of a superpower to serve their interests or for the scraps that they throw at the ally....

If you are in a way alluding to the US-India relationship off late, please note that all decisions including the bail out from the IPI pipeline was to serve Indian interests.......meaning a deal better than and more advantageous both in terms of importance as well as securing Indian strategic objectives.....

In case of Israel...we criticize their actions viz-a viz Palestine as much as we love their tech....

Russia and India have been close allies for decades and it can hardly be seen as being "in bed" with them as we never sent men to support our allies in Afghanistan because of our own interests there....

If we were in bed with any nation/superpower, we would have had an active missile shield already much to the dismay of Pakistan and China.....

It comes down to a matter of perspective....
 
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The bigger question is: Will China replace NATO in the next 20 - 30 years? That would be an amazing feet and a day in the history.

China NO
SCO: Has the potential to become a real threat to NATO

However the biggest influencers in the future will be BRIC....an alliance in the making that can pretty much dictate the west through its economic clout......militarily...it would be the largest military alliance if it fell through....

Point being China by itself can do very little.....It needs other strong nations such Russia and India to go eyeball to eyeball with NATO....

Unlike India that is in bed with imperialists, Chinese hate imperialists. Look at them, they have had problems with neighbouring countries dominated/influenced by imperialist regimes. Japan on one hand, Taiwan on the other, South Korea at the back. And they're also one of the only countries that freed an imperialist colony - Hong Kong
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There really is no need to bring India into every discussion.....But since a leopard cant change its spots....(Would you like me to start including Pakistan in the discussion?.....then we can see who's warming more beds).....Lets try to stay on topic please....

Chinese and the Indians have had an independent foreign policy.....both seem to have had a knack of staying away from alliances....especially militarily....

BTW....Which imperialists are we talking abt wrt India?.....Surely you arent referring to the US.....

India seems to be on the losing end as its hardly making any diplomatic progress into the underdeveloped world.

I dont think you or I are in a position to make those judgements......The Great game has just begun.....and only time will tell.....

Besides...unlike China...Indian Govt is not actively trying to secure resources since it has a lot of internal development to undertake...
However Indian Private firms are giving the Chinese a run for their money in the race to Africa....There is a lot of material on the net regarding this.....you should read up on it...
 
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India is pretty much in bed with everybody (Best diplomacy?) but perhaps not tied to any fixed relation (Non Alliance?). China and Russia will be military strong enough, with or without India, to resist Nato aggression.
 
China NO
SCO: Has the potential to become a real threat to NATO

Russia by itself is already a threat to Nato. China is already a threat to democracies in the far east. So its not a potential. But SCO has the potential being the axis of anti-western dictatorship. Russia has almost zero history of democracy so mixing Russia with democracy is like mixing oil and water. At its present form and pace, Russia will not be a democracy. As matter in fact, Russians as a people are more comfortable with dictatorship. As for China, same thing X2. You can just tell from Chinese members in here how much they love communist dictatorship. And this are not CCP propoganda. The majority of Chinese would vote for dictatorship if they have a choice.

However the biggest influencers in the future will be BRIC....an alliance in the making that can pretty much dictate the west through its economic clout......militarily...it would be the largest military alliance if it fell through....

Point being China by itself can do very little.....It needs other strong nations such Russia and India to go eyeball to eyeball with NATO....

BRIC is a economic terms. Not a military relationship. BRIC was not coined by CIA or state department or KGB or CCP, but by Goldman Sach. Its serves as a measurement of relative economic strength of the BRIC countries. Eventually, the head of states of these four countries think its a good idea to get together for a talk. However, none of these 4 countries has any similarities beyond being labeled by Goldman Sach. As for economic potentials, China by itself can have the most influence compare to India,Russia and Brazil combined. A more important economic relationship is Chinamerica. This is by far the most important economic forum in the world as this relationship literally has the world economy on its back.

There really is no need to bring India into every discussion.....But since a leopard cant change its spots....(Would you like me to start including Pakistan in the discussion?.....then we can see who's warming more beds).....Lets try to stay on topic please....

Chinese and the Indians have had an independent foreign policy.....both seem to have had a knack of staying away from alliances....especially militarily....

BTW....Which imperialists are we talking abt wrt India?.....Surely you arent referring to the US.....
I think its lame that many Chinese thread bring up Indians. But not as many Indian threads that bring up China. Many Chinese start to develop a fixation with India, at least in this forum. However, the problem is not as bad as Indians has with China. As many Indian action or achievement inevitably would bring comparason with China by some poster. This is totally not necessary as the people should stick to the topic instead of comparason. So this thread should be about China and Venezuela and not about India.

I dont think you or I are in a position to make those judgements......The Great game has just begun.....and only time will tell.....

Besides...unlike China...Indian Govt is not actively trying to secure resources since it has a lot of internal development to undertake...
However Indian Private firms are giving the Chinese a run for their money in the race to Africa....There is a lot of material on the net regarding this.....you should read up on it...

I do not think Indian government and industry has a great need for energy as Indian growth has come in service and IT sector. So its need for energy is still miniscule as compare to that of China now. Maybe it will change, but as of now, there is little competition for energy between India and China. If there is any competition, its between US and China for energy. And there is already a game going on in the middle east and Africa.
 
India is pretty much in bed with everybody (Best diplomacy?) but perhaps not tied to any fixed relation (Non Alliance?).China and Russia will be military strong enough, with or without India, to resist Nato aggression .


I dont think so....

In the present situation....China lacks the might to face any aggression from NATO and its allies...

1. NATO (esp US) controls all the sea lanes that supply Chinese oil
2. NATO has the ability to use a multitude of bases around the world that can choke the million+ armed forces of China...
3. China's economy is as dependent on the US as vice versa....lets not forget that 700Bil in US bonds serve as collateral for the Chinese....Deferring in payment by US will cripple China overnight....
Plus going to war with NATO is pretty much a war against EU.....I dont see China having the resources to sustain a war without oil or money....

China needs Russia most importantly for its energy.....
India if it wants its merchant sea lanes secure....

Russia is in the best position by far.....China has a long way to go....
Yes they will be strong as individual nations....but without a military alliance it will be a dauting task to take on NATO....
 
Russia by itself is already a threat to Nato. China is already a threat to democracies in the far east. So its not a potential. But SCO has the potential being the axis of anti-western dictatorship. Russia has almost zero history of democracy so mixing Russia with democracy is like mixing oil and water. At its present form and pace, Russia will not be a democracy. As matter in fact, Russians as a people are more comfortable with dictatorship. As for China, same thing X2. You can just tell from Chinese members in here how much they love communist dictatorship. And this are not CCP propoganda. The majority of Chinese would vote for dictatorship if they have a choice

China is a regional power at the moment.....Its the multi-trillion dollar economy that makes it a superpower....However do remember that the economy is a 2 way street.....

However you completely overestimate China if you think that it wields "military" influence anywhere outside of SE Asia and maybe CAR.

At this point comparing China with NATO is an unrealistic scenario.....
NATO has the ability to cripple China overnight if required....
As I mentioned....China will be what the US is to a military alliance if formed...but by itself it cannot do much to NATO.....Militarily that is....

PS:About the Chinese members here.....I actually appreciate their patriotism......One should love their country no matter what....If a dictatorship or communism is what is making your country great....then thats their lookout on what they feel is the right form of governance...
I myself have at times thrown a "below the belt" jab at the Chinese members....only because I feel they are in no position to comment on India and Indians....But otherwise to each his own....and I admire some Chinese members here.....eg. Oceanx...yourself...though you seem more American than Chinese...



BRIC is a economic terms. Not a military relationship. BRIC was not coined by CIA or state department or KGB or CCP, but by Goldman Sach. Its serves as a measurement of relative economic strength of the BRIC countries. Eventually, the head of states of these four countries think its a good idea to get together for a talk. However, none of these 4 countries has any similarities beyond being labeled by Goldman Sach. As for economic potentials, China by itself can have the most influence compare to India,Russia and Brazil combined. A more important economic relationship is Chinamerica. This is by far the most important economic forum in the world as this relationship literally has the world economy on its back.

I never said that BRIC is a military alliance....I said if they organized themselves on the lines of NATO, could be a major threat.....
Off late, the BRIC nations have started to be more ogranized through regular meetings etc. I find it hard to believe that these countries will not utilize their combined clout to influence politics.....But thats again speculation.....

China is the most influential in the current state....But it lacks in resources especially oil/energy....
Russia is the second largest supplier of energy after OPEC and India controls the sea lanes to China....Plus all the countries that are part of BRIC growing at a fast pace.....China is ahead in the race but not for long esp seeing some of the drawbacks it faces....
It comes down to how each of these members can scratch each others backs......alienating Russia or India cannot serve China positively as each commands a certain authority in their sphere.....
China is nowhere close to being a hyperpower like the US, which I feel is an assumption on your part based on your comments...

I think its lame that many Chinese thread bring up Indians. But not as many Indian threads that bring up China. Many Chinese start to develop a fixation with India, at least in this forum. However, the problem is not as bad as Indians has with China. As many Indian action or achievement inevitably would bring comparason with China by some poster. This is totally not necessary as the people should stick to the topic instead of comparason. So this thread should be about China and Venezuela and not about India.

Honestly...at least in the US....Indians and Chinese gel together quite well.....
I also think that the whole hype about Indo-Chinese "hatred" is nothing more than a faux by product of the environment that we are posting in.....
A lot of Chinese members here I feel tug Pakistan's boat on a lot of issues to "fit in"....when even they know that the rise of India has been similar to China in many ways.....
But hey....who am I to judge.....but thats my observation....



I do not think Indian government and industry has a great need for energy as Indian growth has come in service and IT sector. So its need for energy is still miniscule as compare to that of China now. Maybe it will change, but as of now, there is little competition for energy between India and China. If there is any competition, its between US and China for energy. And there is already a game going on in the middle east and Africa.

Well if you are talking about the level of industrialization....
China is miles ahead of India......
But that does not mean that internal consumption of energy is not a major need of the hour....
Lets be honest....The sacking of the IPI pipeline to make way for the US nuke deal was to secure a unfettered supply of energy as opposed to a risky yet cost efficient proposition....

But I will say this....India is not currently investing in African nations or the likes of Venezuela to secure resources.....But rest assured...you can expect the Indian government to be in this race by the end of this decade....if the level of current growth is sustained....
 
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I dont think so....

In the present situation....China lacks the might to face any aggression from NATO and its allies...

1. NATO (esp US) controls all the sea lanes that supply Chinese oil
2. NATO has the ability to use a multitude of bases around the world that can choke the million+ armed forces of China...
3. China's economy is as dependent on the US as vice versa....lets not forget that 700Bil in US bonds serve as collateral for the Chinese....Deferring in payment by US will cripple China overnight....
Plus going to war with NATO is pretty much a war against EU.....I dont see China having the resources to sustain a war without oil or money....

China needs Russia most importantly for its energy.....
India if it wants its merchant sea lanes secure....

Russia is in the best position by far.....China has a long way to go....
Yes they will be strong as individual nations....but without a military alliance it will be a dauting task to take on NATO....

Hmmm... there are so many things wrong with this statement I don't even know where to start. I guess you are not familiar with the financial markets but at least you shouldn't make bold claims without having adequate knowledge, the suggestion of China gets crippled overnight because US defers its bond payments is truly amusing...

Without going into any discussion of what actually fuels the Chinese economy and its growth, did you honestly think China (or any country) lives on the interest payments by the US government? Just to give you another perspective -- the US bond is perceived to be the safest interest bearing instrument in the world (for the lack of a better alternative) and the entire financial market evolves around this assumed "risk-free" rate, in the unlikely event that US defaults on its bonds the shock wave it sends around the world will be many magnitudes larger than the 98 Russian bond default (this is an under-statement) and will trigger a meltdown of the world markets, (suddenly what investors perceived to be the safest investment in the world becomes worthless, then you can just imagine what would happen to any other forms of investments around the globe). If that scenario were to happen then the US would lose all its credibility and will truly be the day of its downfall, and long before things get that bad for the US it will lose its ability to finance its global military ambitions and we will be living in a new multi-polar world orders.
 
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Hmmm... there are so many things wrong with this statement I don't even know where to start. I guess you are not familiar with the financial markets but at least you shouldn't make bold claims without having adequate knowledge, the suggestion of China gets crippled overnight because US defers its bond payments is truly amusing...

Without going into any discussion of what actually fuels the Chinese economy and its growth, did you honestly think China (or any country) lives on the interest payments by the US government? Just to give you another perspective -- the US bond is perceived to be the safest interest bearing instrument in the world (for the lack of a better alternative) and the entire financial market evolves around this assumed "risk-free" rate, in the unlikely event that US defaults on its bonds the shock wave it sends around the world will be many magnitudes larger than the 98 Russian bond default (this is an under-statement) and will trigger a meltdown of the world markets, (suddenly what investors perceived to be the safest investment in the world becomes worthless, then you can just imagine what would happen to any other forms of investments around the globe). If that scenario were to happen then the US would lose all its credibility and will truly be the day of its downfall, and long before things get that bad for the US it will lose its ability to finance its global military ambitions and we will be living in a new multi-polar world orders.

You're absolutely right in the fact that my statement was a bit "over the top"....Perhaps I should have worded it differently.....

I suppose what I was trying to say was that in an event that the NATO (led by US) is at odds with China....Do you really expect the US to honor payment on their bonds?.....In fact the payments will be the first thing to go out the window.....
If the US can attack Iraq under false pretenses....they can pretty much find a reason to bail on the payment of the bonds.....

The repercussions of this is pretty much doomsday scenario....but arent we speaking of various hypothetical situations here anyways?

And I do agree that the Chinese economy is driven by much more than just US "interest payments".....but 700 Billion in bad debts is not a small amount by any standards....:D
 
You're absolutely right in the fact that my statement was a bit "over the top"....Perhaps I should have worded it differently.....

I suppose what I was trying to say was that in an event that the NATO (led by US) is at odds with China....Do you really expect the US to honor payment on their bonds?.....In fact the payments will be the first thing to go out the window.....
If the US can attack Iraq under false pretenses....they can pretty much find a reason to bail on the payment of the bonds.....

The repercussions of this is pretty much doomsday scenario....but arent we speaking of various hypothetical situations here anyways?

And I do agree that the Chinese economy is driven by much more than just US "interest payments".....but 700 Billion in bad debts is not a small amount by any standards....:D

Absolutely, i think by law the US will write off its debt with a nation that it declares a war with, and if China enters a war with the US then 700 billion debts will not be the only thing it has to worry about! :cry:

In many ways we've seen that China wants to limit its confrontations with the US and all those talks of asymmetrical warfare, the last thing the CCP wants is a full-scaled war with US (or any country for that matter), but a controlled "regional conflict" or battles on a limited scale with the US could still be on the cards should some nutter politicians in Taiwan suddenly declares independence and the US decides to intervene, but I hope that day won't happen.
 
Absolutely, i think by law the US will write off its debt with a nation that it declares a war with, and if China enters a war with the US then 700 billion debts will not be the only thing it has to worry about! :cry:

In many ways we've seen that China wants to limit its confrontations with the US and all those talks of asymmetrical warfare, the last thing the CCP wants is a full-scaled war with US (or any country for that matter), but a controlled "regional conflict" or battles on a limited scale with the US could still be on the cards should some nutter politicians in Taiwan suddenly declares independence and the US decides to intervene, but I hope that day won't happen.

And which is why I have been advocating that China needs a formal alliance/treaty with like minded growing economies that can be a counterweight to the mother of all economies the US.......coincidently....these same growing economies also happen to be military powerhouses, have close proximity to China....and are not in the US camp just yet.....

International politics cannot and should not be a monopoly.....
 
And which is why I have been advocating that China needs a formal alliance/treaty with like minded growing economies that can be a counterweight to the mother of all economies the US.......coincidently....these same growing economies also happen to be military powerhouses, have close proximity to China....and are not in the US camp just yet.....

International politics cannot and should not be a monopoly.....

china does not do alliances, especially one that is at odds with the us.
 
china does not do alliances, especially one that is at odds with the us.

Uh....China has had wars with Russia.....Im sure you've heard of SCO....

Monetary interests and ones need to resists domination (by USA) can make even the biggest of "disagreements" seem miniscule....

Even though "Wishful thinking" currently, dont write it off just yet!!

PS: Personally as an Indian, Im against any sort of alliance wrt India....we have always been non-aligned and its this neutrality that has kept us away from larger conflicts and made the world our technology supermarket
 
Uh....China has had wars with Russia.....Im sure you've heard of SCO....

Monetary interests and ones need to resists domination (by USA) can make even the biggest of "disagreements" seem miniscule....

Even though "Wishful thinking" currently, dont write it off just yet!!

PS: Personally as an Indian, Im against any sort of alliance wrt India....we have always been non-aligned and its this neutrality that has kept us away from larger conflicts and made the world our technology supermarket

SCO is not a alliance it a forum for regional cooperation focusing on economic areas. I PUT THIS VERY CLEARLY the only alliance china is in is north korea due only to the sino-korea pack made back in the korean war days which only states that china will help defend korea in the event that it is attack, if north korea provoked it then their on their own so there is alot of diplomatic room. even when china was seen as part of the communist block it was not in any sign alliance like Warsaw
 
china does not need too many allies, but it needs to reduce the number of enemies.

currently we have a potential war in 4 directions (US forces in afghanistan to the northwest, south korea/japan in the northeast, vietnam/taiwan in the south and india to the southwest).

this is not a good situation. if US forces were to move against us in xinjiang and cripples the Xi'an-Lanzhou and Qinghai-Tibet railroads, we'll be paralyzed, since our current force concentration is in the east. That means we have no choice but to retaliate against the US by hitting them in the east, possibly being forced to attack South Korea and Japana as well, and escalate the war.
 
china does not need too many allies, but it needs to reduce the number of enemies.

currently we have a potential war in 4 directions (US forces in afghanistan to the northwest, south korea/japan in the northeast, vietnam/taiwan in the south and india to the southwest).

this is not a good situation. if US forces were to move against us in xinjiang and cripples the Xi'an-Lanzhou and Qinghai-Tibet railroads, we'll be paralyzed, since our current force concentration is in the east. That means we have no choice but to retaliate against the US by hitting them in the east, possibly being forced to attack South Korea and Japana as well, and escalate the war.

if the us would openly attack china then anyone and everyone would expect the war to escalate, simply put things would have to go very very far south for this to happen and at the point it would ww3 so as things are right now, no worries. but yes i am against alliances but friends we should make more of
 

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