China is the fulcrum of Pakistan's National Security Policy

[SIPRA]

No,
it was when India needed an imagined enemy to unify their fractured nation that has nothing to hold it together.

Much like the mythical Lanka from Hindu mythology, they needed to create a modern day Lanka, Pakistan fit the bill, and over time China was added to that calculation to ferment unified hate in the Indian mind-set to give them a collective sense of identity, a collective Indian-ness based purely on hate.

Think about it, and read up on Lanka and you will understand.

Kudos. India started process of creating enmity with Pakistan, and planning against it's existence, on the night of August 14/15, 1947, barely one second after creation of Pakistan.

 

[IceCold]

It is a choice out of no choice.

That's a poor choice of words. Do you think Pakistan has no choice specially if it decides to jump on the anti-China US bandwagon? Think again!
However realistically speaking, it's the interest of both China and Pakistan to continue a mutually beneficial relationship. China benefits as much as do Pakistan from this relationship.

Its undeniable India bigger market and economy is a big magnet for American, Something which Pakistan is not gonna match it. US is gonna be more willing to listen to India than Pakistan request. Pakistan strategic shift to China is a circumstances created situation rather than a decision made choices.

By that very same logic, what stops China from engaging a big market such as India? Why does it engage Pakistan then? It is also a choice without a choice?

 

[Beast]

That's a poor choice of words. Do you think Pakistan has no choice specially if it decides to jump on the anti-China US bandwagon? Think again!
However realistically speaking, it's the interest of both China and Pakistan to continue a mutually beneficial relationship. China benefits as much as do Pakistan from this relationship.

Pakistan jumps on anti- China bandwagon? Sure, unless it gives up on Kashmir and make peace with India. US will always favour India becos of bigger economy.

 

[IceCold]

Pakistan jumps on anti- China bandwagon? Sure, unless it gives up on Kashmir and make peace with India. US will always favour India becos of bigger economy.

The US has never asked Pakistan to give up on Kashmir? If that were the case the US could have stopped all weapons delivery to Pakistan long ago to make sure Pakistan loses Kashmir for good. It does not mean the US wants to give Kashmir to Pakistan but merely saying that for Pakistan to jump on to the US bandwagon needs to give up Kashmir is being naive.
Don't forget the US is still Pakistan's largest trading partner that actually benefits Pakistan, unlike China.

 

[SIPRA]

The US has never asked Pakistan to give up on Kashmir? If that were the case the US could have stopped all weapons delivery to Pakistan long ago to make sure Pakistan loses Kashmir for good. It does not mean the US wants to give Kashmir to Pakistan but merely saying that for Pakistan to jump on to the US bandwagon needs to give up Kashmir is being naive.
Don't forget the US is still Pakistan's largest trading partner that actually benefits Pakistan, unlike China.

The relationship between Pakistan, on one side, and US and China, on the other side, are fundamentally transactional. It is all broadly quid pro quo. They will remain so for the foreseeable future.

 

[Beast]

The US has never asked Pakistan to give up on Kashmir? If that were the case the US could have stopped all weapons delivery to Pakistan long ago to make sure Pakistan loses Kashmir for good. It does not mean the US wants to give Kashmir to Pakistan but merely saying that for Pakistan to jump on to the US bandwagon needs to give up Kashmir is being naive.
Don't forget the US is still Pakistan's largest trading partner that actually benefits Pakistan, unlike China.

You realised US wouldnt support Pakistan fully even if Pakistan turn anti-China becos India will be displeased. Anybody aiding Pakistan military is against India. India with bigger economy and a large Indian diaspora in US congress has stronger influence over US. As I say, unless Pakistan gives up Kashmir and mend hostile r/s with India. Going anti-China would not help Pakistan gain much favor from US. Pakistan has more to gain allied with China than US.

 

[TheSolution]

No,
it was when India needed an imagined enemy to unify their fractured nation that has nothing to hold it together.

Much like the mythical Lanka from Hindu mythology, they needed to create a modern day Lanka, Pakistan fit the bill, and over time China was added to that calculation to ferment unified hate in the Indian mind-set to give them a collective sense of identity, a collective Indian-ness based purely on hate.

Think about it, and read up on Lanka and you will understand.

I'm aware of this obviously, but I mentioned that because 1965 wasn't the first time we went to war, we invaded right after our independence yet he chose 1965.

Also I would add, it's more than just a unity building exercise, their mindset is colonial, they dream of taking not just Kashmir, but also Pakistan.

 

[peagle]

I'm aware of this obviously, but I mentioned that because 1965 wasn't the first time we went to war, we invaded right after our independence yet he chose 1965.

Also I would add, it's more than just a unity building exercise, their mindset is colonial, they dream of taking not just Kashmir, but also Pakistan.

You've confused me.
If you are aware then it might be better to reinforce the message rather then change it to suit a particular reply. A single message reinforced multiple times has a far deeper impact.

I would suggest not to use the word invade. Pakistan did not invade anything or anyone. Words are important because others use them to spread lies, but we habitually use them to dilute our own message.
Pakistan requested, and the tribals responded by going into Kashmir because the Jammu genocide was taking place. Pakistan had chosen not to invade, hence the tribals stepped forward to help. They were civilians with no training and certain ways of living, so their effectiveness was limited

It is not a colonial mind-set, that has nothing to do with it, it is a religious mind-set to reinforce a new Hindu identity, which has never existed in history. The implied association of Pakistan to Lanka is linked with the claimed existence of bharat mata, it is all religious, not colonial. It is all based on fantasies and lies, not because the religious is false or true but because historical Hinduism is not a singular identity and there is no Indian nation before 1947.
This thinking based on religious ideals is being created to formulate an imagined past, whereupon create a modern reality based on those lies.

The commonality is this thinking is to create a uniform mind-set is the form of imagined bharat mata, and the modern day Lanka, plus there are other aspects. To be clear, it isn't colonial, it's religious. Using the term colonial changes the meaning behind the intentions and changes the understanding of that hateful mind-set.

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan
The H in the hype clicked with me when Mr paraween quoted a u.s tech guy about the a.i gap gradually shifting in China's favour by 2030 -----

Hi,

The AI gap maybe shifting but not the true and actual combat experience.

That is where china needs to focus on.

It combat simulation excercises with allies need to be on a larger level and under extremely realistic circumstances possible.

China will have to learn that to overcome american threat---it cannot count on its numbers---.

The day lesser number of chinese equipment and men may overcome a larger american equipment and soldiers, that is the day that china can claim to be the better of the super powers---.

American war machine is built of monsters with capital M. The viciousness, ruthlessness and brutality of the american forces is unmatched since the history of mankind and they still come out smelling like roses and the world accepts that it was the fault of the other guy---.

The only time china can claim to be a force to be reckoned with is when it can sail its ships 20 miles from the US coastline at will ---day & night.

 

[SIPRA]

Pakistan requested, and the tribals responded by going into Kashmir because the Jammu genocide was taking place.

Excellent analysis and post, @peagle, but I would like to make one correction. Pakistan government didn't request tribals. Their participation was spontaneous, consequent to receipt of news of Jammu massacre of Muslims. Provincial government of that time only facilitated their passage through the province, otherwise they were on their own.

 

[SIPRA]

I'm aware of this obviously, but I mentioned that because 1965 wasn't the first time we went to war, we invaded right after our independence yet he chose 1965.

@Bleek Bhai: That is not correct picture. Pakistan was not at all in a position to invade or attack, for two reasons:

1) PA was yet in the process of formation.
2) British officers, who were leading PA, were not inclined to do any such thing.

Attack, by tribals, was not to assist government of Pakistan, but to help Kashmiri freedom fighters, who were already fighting Dogra Raj, on their own. Tribals intervened, after they received the news of Jammu massacre of Muslims, by Dogra forces and their collaborators. Tribals connection with Kashmiri Freedom Fighters was because of supply of locally manufactured arms and ammunition, which was going on before the establishment of Pakistan.

 

[TheSolution]

@Bleek Bhai: That is not correct picture. Pakistan was not at all in a position to invade or attack, for two reasons:

1) PA was yet in the process of formation.
2) British officers, who were leading PA, were not inclined to do any such thing.

Attack, by tribals, was not to assist government of Pakistan, but to help Kashmiri freedom fighters, who were already fighting Dogra Raj, on their own. Tribals intervened, after they received the news of Jammu massacre of Muslims, by Dogra forces and their collaborators. Tribals connection with Kashmiri Freedom Fighters was because of supply of locally manufactured arms and ammunition, which was going on before the establishment of Pakistan.

Were these the FATA tribals?

 

[SIPRA]

Were these the FATA tribals?

Yes, but not from all FATA.

 

[Khanate]

This guy is suspicious, I feel he serves an ulterior purpose here...

Exaggerates a lot of things and severely underplays India's capability

You are right

There will never be a joint Sino-Pakistan war on India. This fear-mongering is packaged by India's establishment to line their pockets in defence deals and control the population.

 

[satyamev]

Yes, but not from all FATA.

the FATA tribal theory has long been debunked by your own retired army people, who were involved in the invasion.
The action was led and staffed by the regular army troops in mufti.
The British officers were actively involved in the invasion.
This is a defense forum , I doubt experienced people here have not read all the literature on this.