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China is after our inventions? Who are we kidding?

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The idea that the Chinese are incapable of producing anything for themselves is an age-old racist argument

Some things never change. For as long as I can remember, people in the west have been paranoid about the orient – and about China in particular. I grew up in an ultra-devout Catholic household in rural Ireland and I remember my mother being petrified by what people then called "the yellow peril", by which they meant the supposed threat to western civilisation posed by the Chinese communist regime.

This paranoia was not confined to my mother, incidentally. It was shared by most postwar US administrations. It led Harry Truman to go to war in Korea; and, decades later, to the Kennedy and Johnson administrations becoming embroiled in the jungles of South Vietnam. And although a kind of unlikely rapprochement was engineered by Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger in 1972, profound suspicion of China endures to the present day.

It is widely believed, or at any rate confidently asserted by the US, for example, that the Chinese government is the most persistent abuser of cyberspace. (A bit rich, that, coming from the home of the National Security Agency, but we will let that pass.) Special units of the People's Liberation Army, operating from buildings that have been identified by western analysts, spend every waking hour hacking into the servers of American hi-tech companies and government organisations. And this abusive hacking, so the Cassandras maintain, is intensely purposeful: its aim is to steal industrial secrets (intellectual property) from the west so that they may be used to give Chinese companies a market advantage.

"In the post-information age," writes Mark Anderson, one of the fiercest critics of China's activities in this sphere, "the global economy is driven by technology and IP is its primary asset class. Wealth is the result of invention and those individuals, companies or countries desiring wealth must obtain it by either inventing or stealing those inventions. Nations in this new information economy find themselves in one of two businesses: robbing others' "information banks" or protecting their own. A successful IP theft or protection strategy can mean jobs lost and gained, middle classes destroyed and created and military power shifted."

Now just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you. It's conceivable that Mr Anderson's apocalyptic visions are based on a solid foundation. It's also true that contemporary China does not have the rule of law as we would understand it in the west, which means that it's pretty difficult to mount prosecutions for infringement of intellectual property. But even allowing for all that, two things about the current hysteria about China bother me.

The first is that it has echoes of earlier, semi-racist panics. The implicit assumption is that these oriental types are incapable of inventing stuff themselves, so in order to make economic progress they have to rip off the inventions of our clever chaps. They can't create, in other words, so they have to copy. Readers with long memories will recall that once upon a time we in the west used to say such things about the Japanese. Nikon and Canon just made inferior copies of German Leicas and Rolleiflexes. Sony just made knock-off copies of American transistor radios. And of course Datsun and Toyota cars were rust-bucket jokes.

Well, guess what? It turned out that the joke was on us. Leica very nearly went under. Rolleiflex morphed into a niche manufacturer of beautiful, expensive analogue cameras. Nikon and Canon learned how to make astonishingly good cameras and lenses and now dominate the world market. Sony became a company that for several decades was as revered for elegant design as Apple is today. And Toyota taught the rest of the world how cars should be manufactured. So much for occidental superiority.

vqx9.jpg


And that highlights the other puzzling aspect of the assumption that the only way the Chinese can get on is by stealing from us. One of the most striking aspects of the engineering and science departments of elite British and American universities is the astonishing numbers of Chinese students studying in them for postgraduate degrees. I've met quite a few of these students in the course of my day job. They are uniformly hard working and many are very smart indeed. Most plan to return home after they've obtained their degrees or completed their post-doctoral research. And anybody who thinks that they are intellectually inferior to their homegrown counterparts is not paying attention.

It's possible, of course, that when these migrants return home their creativity will be stifled in some way. They may find it difficult to get venture capital, for example. Or the dead hand of local communist officialdom may squash their entrepreneurialism. But of one thing I am sure: if China doesn't become a technological innovator, it won't be for lack of talent. There may come a time when we will need to steal from them.

China is after our inventions? Who are we kidding? | Technology | The Observer
 
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I don't blame them, China is recently rich.

Did you know for a while, and even now, the newly rich are not accepted by the old families. It's a matter of prestige, and prestige takes time.

A simple example, when the American stealth bomber, the one before B-2 crashed, it was blamed on poor maintenance, which is probably true. However, as you read it you sort of expects this and believes it.

When Chinese J-10 crashes for the same reason, the people automatically assume bad quality. Even though it is not so. Even after reading the reason, most would pass it off as communist propaganda.

Can you imagine how much crap we would have gotten if our J-20 gets as delayed and over priced? Just look at our engine program if you don't believe there is a difference in perception.


Bottom line, it'll take at least another 2-3 decades for this to fade and China to truly be a technological and economic giant.
 
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I don't blame them, China is recently rich.

Did you know for a while, and even now, the newly rich are not accepted by the old families. It's a matter of prestige, and prestige takes time.

A simple example, when the American stealth bomber, the one before B-2 crashed, it was blamed on poor maintenance, which is probably true. However, as you read it you sort of expects this and believes it.

When Chinese J-10 crashes for the same reason, the people automatically assume bad quality. Even though it is not so. Even after reading the reason, most would pass it off as communist propaganda.

Can you imagine how much crap we would have gotten if our J-20 gets as delayed and over priced? Just look at our engine program if you don't believe there is a difference in perception.


Bottom line, it'll take at least another 2-3 decades for this to fade and China to truly be a technological and economic giant.

Commie Propaganda I don't trust you :devil:

On topic General Americans are stupid
All brown People are Arabs
All Koreans,Vietnamese,Filip one,Chinese,Japanese are Chinese

Btw i think 1-2 decades is more realistic your Govt is already spending Billions on Tech so 1-2 decades is achievable
 
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interesting comments

You seem unaware of the state IBM was in, did you see their antiquated thinkpad prior to the Lenovo acquisition? Now look at Lenovo's state of the art lap tops, top quality, cost competitive with Samsung, and already the biggest PC brand in the world. You have to ask the question. Why didn't IBM do that? (Never mind produce the slimmest smart phone on the world market.)

You talk of head in sand. A 30 year old ex English student of mine is currently at George Washington studying a masters in website architecture, this after years as a very serious top IT professional at both Lenovo and Redhat, every student on the course is Chinese. Have you looked at the ethnic demographic in silicon valley? Where've you been?

You appear unaware of how history operates. Where did Germany get the technology to match and surpass that of Britain? Where'd the US get the technology to match and surpass the old country? I just saw a graph comparing Chinese and domestic students in UK universities. In language based subjects domestic clearly wins out, but in IT and engineering, even studying in a 2nd language, the Chinese are clear winners. There seems to be a culturist undertone to your copy and past IP argument, are you seriously suggesting the Chinese are intellectually inferior? And even taking the element of truth in the grossly exaggerated IP myth (or Republican/CIA fig leaf), when you still have a rural population the size of the EU to raise up to the urban half, not to cut corners would almost be morally incompetent.

Baidu? I recall there was a serious argument the real reason Google pulled out of China was because they couldn't catch the much more popular Chinese search engine. As for the free content, its all on other sites that Google or anyone could send you to (if you did the search). And no, the foreign content though popular is not dominant, its swamped by domestic content.

But lets assume the life buoy excuse you and others keep clinging to is the Chinese ship itself, what about the big picture? Where exactly do you think the West would be without China's buoyancy? That's right. Taking in water to eclipse the 30's. They kept us all afloat. And now if China gets her way, the next big success story by mid century will finally be Africa. Chinese know how, Chinese technology, 1000's of African students in Chinese universities. Some commentators (experts) seem to hope the Chinese economic 'miracle' will go wrong, the tapering boom blow out. Best hope not. Financially interdependence is hear to stay.

Just a few points to note:
1. The British (and later American) system of standardised tests and examinations like the GCSE A levels, TOFFLE, SATS etc were copied/implemented from China after witnessing the massive recruitment of officials into the imperial confucian bureacracy in the Ming and later Qing Dynasties. These standardised national exams have been around in China for over 1800 years

2. The system of Ministries and Departments in state administration (e.g. Ministry of Defence, Ministry of Finance etc were recommended and copied from Chinese bureacratic practices that has been in place since the system of "9 ministries and 5 departments" of the Han Dynasty (200BC to ~200AD)

3. The idea of a centralised national bank was invented in China and copied in the west in subsesquent years.

4. Paper money and cheques were first developed in China (tho it came with quite some inflation at that time)

5. Ice cream was first invented in China

6. The world's first toilet paper was invented in China during the Han Dynasty

7. Lets not even mention the first repeating weapon (repeating crossbow without need to reload), first multistage rocket (gunpowder fueled), first continous flamethrower, first docuemnted use of psychological warfare (King FuChai of Wu made 600 convicts march up to enemy lines and commit suicide in front of them in some ancient "shock and awe" tactics), first state to have a national institutionalised system of conscription (During the Tang Dynasty 600AD, cf Revolutionary France's Levee en masse in the 19th century), World's first typeprinting/copying, construction of the world's longest man made canal of all time (the Grand Canal - built during the Sui Dynasty ~600AD to transport grain from the South to the north and facilitate trade), the world's longest man made structure (the Great Wall - no introductions needed here), world's first agricultural revolution (Europe's arrived about 800 years later, and this goes some way towards explaining the vast population difference between the two today). The list goes on but the key here is that China and the Chinese too are learning from other cultures - the Arabs, the West etc. Modernisation is a two-way process and the Chinese do not seek to impose their values on others - it is up to them to interpret and implement as deemed fit for their own cultural and historical contexts. Mao sure had screwed up economic policies, but he had great contributions too - the unification of the state, the end of the warlords era, the removal of foreign colonial occupation of port cities on the continent, the eradication of opium addiction (the British drug dealers had over 40 to 100 million people addicted on opium in China in the early 20th century), the restoration of most of the lost Chinese territories to the state in accordance with historical imperial boundaries with the exception of Mongolia and Taiwan.

Innovation depends on the setting of a people. If one is engulfed with constant war and strife and competition, one would advance technologically given the stressors. China became too stable and too isolated for too long, stagnating and emphasising on literature, governance and bureacracy for too long, neglecting the sciences and engineering. The current frenzy over science and engineering stems from that sudden realisation of falling behind scientifically and technologically when suddenly exposed to the whole world. It will not be the first time in Chinese history this happened. It has afterall happened with the militarily superior XiongNu of the 1st century BC, and the Mongols in 1000AD and the British in the 19th century. Now it is science and tech and modernisation at all costs- no matter the human costs for fear of weakness and the grinding poverty wrought upon the Chinese by certain powers in the past.
 
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The stereotype comes from the fact that China has done nothing to progress the world since ancient times.

Don't be so oversensitive when almost all contributions in the last 1,000 years have not come from China. China has routinely been 10-25% of Humanity, yet has nowhere close to 10-25% of the inventions or discoveries contributed by Humanity.

Why is that? Typical 3rd world excuse of "white man colonialism" and "imperialist Zionist capitalist" and "NWO Illuminati World Bankers"?? I've heard Chinese repeat these excuses time and time again, just like all of the other jealous, angry, poor, and incompetent nations of the 3rd world that can't take responsibility for their lack of achievement and success in life. I guess that's just further proof that China belongs where it belongs, in the 3rd world.

PS: Your economy is only large because you have 1.4 billion people; if you had the population of the USA, you would have an economy approx. 1/8th ours, or less than $2 trillion (smaller than Italy, Russia, Brazil, UK, Germany, Japan, etc.)
 
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The stereotype comes from the fact that China has done nothing to progress the world since ancient times.

Don't be so oversensitive when almost all contributions in the last 1,000 years have not come from China. China has routinely been 10-25% of Humanity, yet has nowhere close to 10-25% of the inventions or discoveries contributed by Humanity.

Why is that? Typical 3rd world excuse of "white man colonialism" and "imperialist Zionist capitalist" and "NWO Illuminati World Bankers"?? I've heard Chinese repeat these excuses time and time again, just like all of the other jealous, angry, poor, and incompetent nations of the 3rd world that can't take responsibility for their lack of achievement and success in life. I guess that's just further proof that China belongs where it belongs, in the 3rd world.

PS: Your economy is only large because you have 1.4 billion people; if you had the population of the USA, you would have an economy approx. 1/8th ours, or less than $2 trillion (smaller than Italy, Russia, Brazil, UK, Germany, Japan, etc.)

Apparently we Chinese are now the same as Arabs and Africans in this American's eyes. Well it's about time the world is only Arabs/black and Americans.

Colonialism happened in really limited places in China, less than 3% of China is lost to colonialism, if that. And it was for a relatively short time. As to the jewish people, they are a friend of China and we to them.

But this post does illustrate what the West knows of China, you think we been living off your inventions for a thousand years? What did we do for the first 800 years when our contact was minimal to none? Or the first 900 years when our emperor rejected Western stuff and trade due to the fact the Western inventions at that time was not impressive to him.

China didn't have the industrial revolution, for a number of reasons, which I will not talk about here, but your claim is so stupid I can't believe it came from a person that at least has access to a computer.


You know if you don't know, don't talk, if you don't talk at least it creates the doubt on your ignorance, don't erase the doubt.
 
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Apparently we Chinese are now the same as Arabs and Africans in this American's eyes. Well it's about time the world is only Arabs/black and Americans.

I literally have no idea what you are talking. I mean it, honestly. What are you even saying?

Colonialism happened in really limited places in China, less than 3% of China is lost to colonialism, if that. And it was for a relatively short time. As to the jewish people, they are a friend of China and we to them.

Exactly, so this excuse that China is not developed due to colonialism is even more farcical. And congratulations on your relationship with "the Jews". LMAO, I have Jewish relatives, you do know that there are more Jews in the USA than anywhere else in the world, and that we're basically like blood-brothers, right? Either way, I have no idea what this has to do with anything.

China didn't have the industrial revolution, for a number of reasons, which I will not talk about here, but your claim is so stupid I can't believe it came from a person that at least has access to a computer.

Yea, you won't talk about it, yet I'm the one who's stupid. You just made yourself look like a fool; you know that everything I said is true, you are just too prideful to admit it!!

You know if you don't know, don't talk, if you don't talk at least it creates the doubt on your ignorance, don't erase the doubt.

I am happy you are following your own rules. No wonder you "will not talk about it here"... glad you're not hypocritical.

Fact: China has never been an impressive power when compared to Europe. Almost every time we met each other you guys lost. You foolishly think things are going to be different now, even though China was never dominant before.
 
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It is easy to confuse a civilization with a nation-state. The contributions of both - the Indian civilization as well as the Chinese civilization have been great in the field of human evolution. The much much younger nation-states of the Republic of India and the People's Republic of China have yet to contribute anything significant to the world. This has to do with their set-ups - India is stifled by an education system installed by the British which stifles creativity and churns out robots well-versed in what is already invented/discovered and China because of its communist background. But Americans must realize that for the first 150 years of their independence, they did not contribute anything significant either. Heck, till the 1960s your own citizens did not have equal rights. If not for WW-2, which worked as a catalyst for the Americans to overtake the Brits as the predominant world power - perhaps this would not have been the case. I don't like colonialism - but the achievements of the Brits despite being a small little island are truly astounding.
 
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I literally have no idea what you are talking. I mean it, honestly. What are you even saying?



Exactly, so this excuse that China is not developed due to colonialism is even more farcical. And congratulations on your relationship with "the Jews". LMAO, I have Jewish relatives, you do know that there are more Jews in the USA than anywhere else in the world, and that we're basically like blood-brothers, right? Either way, I have no idea what this has to do with anything.



Yea, you won't talk about it, yet I'm the one who's stupid. You just made yourself look like a fool; you know that everything I said is true, you are just too prideful to admit it!!



I am happy you are following your own rules. No wonder you "will not talk about it here"... glad you're not hypocritical.

Fact: China has never been an impressive power when compared to Europe. Almost every time we met each other you guys lost. You foolishly think things are going to be different now, even though China was never dominant before.

Which Chinese said Colonialism and jewish made China backwards in the past 100 years or so? That's the African and Middle east excuse. Hence my first comment. We were "Backwards" if you must due to no industrialization.

lol just because you say fact doesn't make it fact. UK conquered India, why not China? There were plans.

The Dutch sent reports that the Japanese during warring states was militarily superior in every way. The Japanese invasion of Ming China didn't make it out of Korea. The Japanese used about half a million troops during the invasion.

No european power could master that many men at that time.

The Chinese treasure fleet dominated the oceans from Japan to Africa and middle east. The biggest wooden ship is Chinese. The Chinese cannons at that time was the best. For guns Europeans had better, but cannons ours was better. Our fleet was much larger than even the Spanish armada that was seen as the biggest fleet ever assembled.

The ship building technology was also far more advanced than European ones at that time. There is a lot of sources for this.

Columbus, de Gama, and Zheng He! 15th Century Mariners. Crash Course: World History #21 - YouTube

Junk (ship) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Chinese economy at that time was huge, and our silk products was crazy expensive and popular in Europe.

We brought a huge number of states including all east Asian states, nomadic tribes, Muslim states, and African states of about 100 different countries under our tributary system. Which European nation did that until the UK did, but to a much more primitive native population not to functioning countries that had armies and government.

Our society was much more advanced in terms of capitalism and production, but then the Qing dynasty happened. Why did it happen? One of the reason is silver from the new world via Spain. The gold/silver completely crashed the Spanish empire and the Chinese empire. Chinese han empire was replaced with a manchu one and the technological advances truly stopped.

While Spain was only a small part of Europe so it's failure didn't affect Europe as much. What made China great it's size, was also what doomed it. A divided Europe means no matter how bad a situation is it won't affect the whole continent, until globalization, while China is the whole continent.

These are facts backed by books and are not secrets, if you want proof I can provided, but one simple google search would provide you with sources for what I said.
 
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Which Chinese said Colonialism and jewish made China backwards in the past 100 years or so? That's the African and Middle east excuse. Hence my first comment. We were "Backwards" if you must due to no industrialization.

You've been backwards for literally centuries. What's the excuse for that? Before the industrialization of the 18th century, where was the center of science and technology? Who was churning out inventions at a regular rate? Not China.

UK conquered India, why not China?

Because everyone wanted a piece of it? Everyone divide you guys up like a piece of pizza, if you have forgotten so quickly. No one nation was allowed to annex parts of China, lest they be attacked by all of the others.

The Chinese treasure fleet dominated the oceans from Japan to Africa and middle east. The biggest wooden ship is Chinese. The Chinese cannons at that time was the best. For guns Europeans had better, but cannons ours was better. Our fleet was much larger than even the Spanish armada that was seen as the biggest fleet ever assembled.

Suuuure... and then you summarily got your a$$ses whooped repeatedly over the course of 100 years by a tiny island nation, in spite of your 'superior' technology that you seemed to have lost in a few mere decades.

The Chinese economy at that time was huge

Because the Chinese population was (and still is) huge.

Do you really think that's supposed to impress the West? You do know that China's economy was 4x larger than Britain's when they started humiliating you, right? That makes it all the more humiliating my friend, not more impressive.

We brought a huge number of states including all east Asian states, nomadic tribes, Muslim states, and African states of about 100 different countries under our tributary system

No, you didn't. More wishful thinking. You brought Vietnam under your power and that was it. That was the extent of your power. Modern-day China is the extent of your territorial conquests. You never conquered South Asia, or Central Asia, or the Middle East, or the rest of Southeast Asia.

As for us, take a look at the Spanish Empire, British Empire, French Empire, Dutch Empire, Portuguese Empire, Roman Empire, Russian Empire, Italian Empire, etc. And hey, while looking at those, remember one thing, all of these Empires with their combined population still do not equal China's total population. That just goes to show how lacking you are in history.
 
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We are a new kid on a city. It will take time to understand how city life works before you can invent something. People argue forget, our ancestors are some of the most brilliant inventor until we cut off ourselves with the world.
 
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It is easy to confuse a civilization with a nation-state. The contributions of both - the Indian civilization as well as the Chinese civilization have been great in the field of human evolution. The much much younger nation-states of the Republic of India and the People's Republic of China have yet to contribute anything significant to the world. This has to do with their set-ups - India is stifled by an education system installed by the British which stifles creativity and churns out robots well-versed in what is already invented/discovered and China because of its communist background. But Americans must realize that for the first 150 years of their independence, they did not contribute anything significant either. Heck, till the 1960s your own citizens did not have equal rights. If not for WW-2, which worked as a catalyst for the Americans to overtake the Brits as the predominant world power - perhaps this would not have been the case. I don't like colonialism - but the achievements of the Brits despite being a small little island are truly astounding.

The contributions of India are minuscule, and the contributions of China are all ancient and have been superseded by more impressive feats. Really, off the top of my head I can't even think of a significant Indian contribution other than the typical *ONE* invention that you always proudly scream: The replacement of zero as a number instead of a placeholder. Oh, and the numeral system... :undecided:

Because we all know that Europeans would not have invented a numeral system without Indian help... oh wait, we invented plenty...

We are a new kid on a city. It will take time to understand how city life works before you can invent something. People argue forget, our ancestors are some of the most brilliant inventor until we cut off ourselves with the world.

All I ask is what inventions are you referring to? What can I hold in my hand today and say, "thank god for the existence of the Chinese, for which without I would not have this amazing device/tool/invention/drug/technology in my hand today"??
 
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You've been backwards for literally centuries. What's the excuse for that? Before the industrialization of the 18th century, where was the center of science and technology? Who was churning out inventions at a regular rate? Not China.



Because everyone wanted a piece of it? Everyone divide you guys up like a piece of pizza, if you have forgotten so quickly. No one nation was allowed to annex parts of China, lest they be attacked by all of the others.



Suuuure... and then you summarily got your a$$ses whooped repeatedly over the course of 100 years by a tiny island nation, in spite of your 'superior' technology that you seemed to have lost in a few mere decades.



Because the Chinese population was (and still is) huge.

Do you really think that's supposed to impress the West? You do know that China's economy was 4x larger than Britain's when they started humiliating you, right? That makes it all the more humiliating my friend, not more impressive.



No, you didn't. More wishful thinking. You brought Vietnam under your power and that was it. That was the extent of your power. Modern-day China is the extent of your territorial conquests. You never conquered South Asia, or Central Asia, or the Middle East, or the rest of Southeast Asia.

As for us, take a look at the Spanish Empire, British Empire, French Empire, Dutch Empire, Portuguese Empire, Roman Empire, Russian Empire, Italian Empire, etc. And hey, while looking at those, remember one thing, all of these Empires with their combined population still do not equal China's total population. That just goes to show how lacking you are in history.
Shut up yankee! If you think you are superior, why don't you try invading my country again like you did in the Middle East?

The contributions of India are minuscule, and the contributions of China are all ancient and have been superseded by more impressive feats. Really, off the top of my head I can't even think of a significant Indian contribution other than the typical *ONE* invention that you always proudly scream: The replacement of zero as a number instead of a placeholder. Oh, and the numeral system... :undecided:

Because we all know that Europeans would not have invented a numeral system without Indian help... oh wait, we invented plenty...



All I ask is what inventions are you referring to? What can I hold in my hand today and say, "thank god for the existence of the Chinese, for which without I would not have this amazing device/tool/invention/drug/technology in my hand today"??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

The most technologically superior country in the world was China priors to the 15th century. Now I would admit after we cut off from the world during the Ming Dynasty and we ignore the foreign influence, we became a backward. But make no mistake about it, in the modern era, we did contribute sporadically in the field of science and technology, just not in the same level as White people.
 
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The contributions of India are minuscule, and the contributions of China are all ancient and have been superseded by more impressive feats. Really, off the top of my head I can't even think of a significant Indian contribution other than the typical *ONE* invention that you always proudly scream: The replacement of zero as a number instead of a placeholder. Oh, and the numeral system... :undecided:

Because we all know that Europeans would not have invented a numeral system without Indian help... oh wait, we invented plenty...



All I ask is what inventions are you referring to? What can I hold in my hand today and say, "thank god for the existence of the Chinese, for which without I would not have this amazing device/tool/invention/drug/technology in my hand today"??

You've already made up your mind Klansman - now put on that mask and burn a few crosses.
 
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Shut up yankee! If you think you are superior, why don't you try invading my country again like you did in the Middle East?

Lol, we could destroy China with the Alaskan National Guard, let alone the entire US Armed Forces. You know it, I know it. No reason to be jealous.

But I guess this is just a typical 3rd world response when you are backed up into a corner and don't know how to respond to my facts. No surprise there.

The most technologically superior country in the world was China priors to the 15th century. Now I would admit after we cut off from the world during the Ming Dynasty and we ignore the foreign influence, we became a backward. But make no mistake about it, in the modern era, we did contribute sporadically in the field of science and technology, just not in the same level as White people.

I'm going to ask you for the last time. Name the contributions your people have made, that have been so great as to even claim them to be sporadic in comparison to Whites.

You've already made up your mind Klansman - now put on that mask and burn a few crosses.

Sure I will Bollywood, as soon as you rape a child and convince yourself you are an Aryan "Caucasian".

Just another jealous response of a 3rd worlder. You guys never surprise me with your apparent genius. I think you know in your heart that I'm right, which is why you don't even bother to respond to the points you previously have made, and those that I have now responded to.
 
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