China & India Border incursions News and Discussions

[thestringshredder]

NEW DELHI: A third flag meeting between Indian and Chinese troops failed to break the deadlock between the two sides, with the Chinese insisting that India take down security structures in Fukche and Chumar in Ladakh without offering reciprocal commitments.

"The meeting was unsatisfactory," foreign minister Salman Khurshid told TOI, indicating that the standoff might not blow over just yet.

With May Day celebrations beginning on Wednesday, Khurshid said there was no prospect of a response from the Chinese side to India's demand that the intruding troops be withdrawn. "We made our demands. But they made their demands too," Khurshid said.

The Chinese demanded dismantling of the border structures that have recently come up, particularly in Fukche and Chumar. In addition, they asked the Indians to take down their tents facing the Chinese troops. Only after the Indians complied would the Chinese contemplate their next step, refusing to give any commitment on a withdrawal.

According to ITBP sources, the border structures China wants India to pull down are not even permanent posts but only metal sheet shelters set up for troops who conduct frequent patrols in the desolate region prone to icy winds. Seeking their removal is a broad hint that India roll back its increased patrolling and presence in the area.

"Dismantling of these structures is ruled out without any clear commitment from the Chinese indicating the time of retreat of its troops from Raki Nala. There has to be complete restoration of pre-April 15 position," an ITBP official said.

Indian officials were told by Chinese commanders that they would have to wait for orders from Beijing. This seems to fly in the face of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's assessment that the incident was "localized" and that the government had a plan to resolve it.

It seems clear now that rather than local adventurism, a well-thought out Chinese strategy is at work that caught India off guard at a time when the government is grappling with domestic political turmoil and on the eve of a visit by Chinese Premier Li Keqiang.

The impasse is pushing India to take more muscular steps which would invite retaliation, a situation India is keen to avoid. But this is looking increasingly likely, sources said.

Incidentally, Indian local military and ITBP commanders will be crossing over from the Indian border post at Chushul to the adjoining Spanggur post in China to participate in the ceremonial function on Wednesday to mark May Day, providing an opportunity for discussions.

"Informal deliberations are expected there as well, though it is now clear that this border row may not be resolved at the local commanders level," said a senior official of the security establishment.

Will Khurshid still travel to Beijing on May 9? "Yes," he said, ruling out a cancellation at this stage. However, with India unable and unwilling to physically remove the Chinese tents, officials said a diplomatic approach was inevitable -- which means that both the Khurshid visit and the Chinese premier's visit to India on May 20 could be in danger.

Link - Third flag meeting fails; China wants India to dismantle security structures in Ladakh - The Times of India

 

[President]

Have you heard of term called " Izzat" ? right now- it is beyond ' being calm', and I'm as calm as they come in these situations, public sentiment is not what I go by- BUT your countries " Izaat" is being pissed on. Not to say how the rest of the world is paying attention to lack of " izzat".

I will tell you I was a MMS fan- whole heartily till few days ago. But the man comes out 12 days later and says it was localized and makes excuses . This and other actions from him shows that he is an " economic man" , who should have stayed as the ' Finance minister'-- everything else, he is unfit for. Actually a down right embarrassment!

i agree with your view point, but just because there are few soldiers tenting does not mean that we start a full fledged war since it wont benefit anybody, but yes we should be resolute and stay put with are position being no negotiation till they leave..

 

[JayAtl]

i agree with your view point, but just because there are few soldiers tenting does not mean that we start a full fledged war since it wont benefit anybody, but yes we should be resolute and stay put with are position being no negotiation till they leave..

did they start a full fledged war to achieve the objectives? so where do you come with the notion a full fledged war is needed?

 

[thestringshredder]

- Beijing sees threat in advanced landing strips in forward areas, seeks their closure

The Chinese have demanded the de-activation of two forward airstrips of the Indian Air Force (IAF) in the region where their troops have crossed over and set up a tented camp in what India says is 19km inside its own territory.

Defence minister A.K. Antony today described the situation in eastern Ladakh as “not one of our creation” but said “we remain committed to a peaceful resolution of the situation, through military and diplomatic dialogue within the framework of the agreements for maintaining peace and tranquility”.

The strategic import of the Chinese “intrusion” was discussed in high-level meetings of the security establishment.

Antony, speaking at a scheduled “Unified Commanders Conference” of the military top brass, said “there should not be any doubt the country remains unanimous in its commitment to take every possible step, at all levels, to safeguard our interests”.

The minister was later briefed by national security adviser Shivshankar Menon, who heads the China Study Group, and the chiefs of the army, navy and the air force in a separate meeting.

In the deliberations on the import of the Chinese tented camp at Raki Nala, near Indian posts, there was a growing belief that Beijing’s troops had a grand design.

The Chinese military considers the re-activation of two advance landing grounds (ALGs) at Daulat Beg Oldi (DBO) and Fukche a threat because it increases the capability of Indian forces to deploy faster and in greater numbers.

None of the two airstrips can be used through the year for landing and take-off by fixed-wing aircraft. But they are used by helicopters.

DBO, at nearly 16,500ft, is a remote post to which the road link is tenuous at best. But its strategic location gives IAF aircraft capability to take-off in the direction of both the Siachen Glacier — where Indian troops face the Pakistani Army — and towards the Karakoram and Aksai Chin where Chinese forces are deployed.

DBO is 80km from Siachen. The location of DBO also allows the launch of platforms (such as unmanned aerial vehicles) to keep a watch on the Karakoram pass and the Khunjerab pass through which the Karakoram Highway runs between China and Pakistan.

China has huge investments in the Gilgit-Baltistan area of Pakistani Kashmir that India claims and their military engineers are known to be working there.

The re-activation of DBO in May 2008 was a hush-hush affair by India. “I remember that none of our families and the families of the crew could be told where we were heading and we talked about it only after returning to Chandigarh,” Air Marshal P.K. Barbora (retired) told The Telegraph this evening.

He was the western air commander at the time and was in the first fixed-wing aircraft, an Antonov 32, to land at DBO in 43 years.

“I recall that the Chinese asked for a flag-meeting immediately and objected to the landing but it was a political decision of the government to activate our forward landing grounds and we were executing it,” said Barbora.

In November that year, the IAF also re-activated Fukche, several hundred kilometres to the southeast of DBO. Unlike DBO, Fukche has much better ground connections and is also at a lower altitude (about 14,000ft).

But the aerial distance between Fukche and the Western Highway is less than 70km. With the Western Highway, China connects Xinjiang with Tibet in territory that India claims. A potential adversary’s airfield so close to the highway increases China’s threat perceptions.

Barbora says that with the acquisition of new American C-130J Hercules transport aircraft that can land on and take off from “dirt strips”, the strategic importance of the ALGs has increased manifold.

Troops and supplies can now be transported to the front in shorter time and in larger numbers. They will also reduce the “damage’ caused by air maintenance — parachuting supplies in harsh weather. The Indian Air Force had also wanted to open another forward airstrip at Chushul but the plan was abandoned.

There may have been one of two possible reasons for this. Barbora said the terrain in Chushul was not appropriate, though it was used in the past. Another source said the IAF was forced to drop the plan because the Chinese objected and claimed ownership of a part of Chushul (also in eastern Ladakh).

In demanding the closure of the forward landing grounds, analysts in the Indian military believe, China is holding India’s border infrastructure development programme to ransom. Acceding to the demand would mean Antony’s emphasis on the border programme will have to be shelved in certain sectors.

The IAF is now focused on developing Nyoma in Ladakh, said to be about 23km from the Line of Actual Control, as a forward base. Unlike DBO, where fixed-wing aircraft can land and take off but cannot be based, Nyoma will have hangars and the entire establishment that goes into sustaining and sheltering fighter aircraft.

But New Delhi’s response to the revival of the Chinese demands to de-activate the ALGs is still taking shape. External affairs minister Salman Khurshid is scheduled to visit Beijing on May 9, followed by Antony in June.

At the unified commanders’ conference today, Antony said: “Our bilateral relations with China are, at times, bedevilled by border issues, particularly along the Line of Actual Control”. A defence ministry statement quoting him said: “The recent developments are no exception. Among the various initiatives to safeguard our border, the thrust has been on development of our border roads and advance landing grounds”.

Link - Delhi spies airstrip design in China tents

 

[President]

Full fledged war is bad for us and our economy..once you start the war it takes the country back economically several years..China is economicaly stronger than us and so it can also sustain more "war days"..what MMS is doing may be a pacifier or simply putting that we dont have a solution yet..but I think instead of getting the pain from the chinese needle, enjoy it pretending as a immunization injection and be ready and steady!

 

[Nisha]

Have you heard of term called " Izzat" ? right now- it is beyond ' being calm', and I'm as calm as they come in these situations, public sentiment is not what I go by- BUT your countries " Izaat" is being pissed on. Not to say how the rest of the world is paying attention to lack of " izzat".

I will tell you I was a MMS fan- whole heartily till few days ago. But the man comes out 12 days later and says it was localized and makes excuses . This and other actions from him shows that he is an " economic man" , who should have stayed as the ' Finance minister'-- everything else, he is unfit for. Actually a down right embarrassment!

This was known a long time ago. MMS is purely a Finance guy not political at all. He was chosen by Sonia to be PM. She is the puppet master and he is the puppet. Unless, Indians truly wakes up and realize we have ppl of great caliber who can lead this nation, we will never get anywhere. The world is up and running and it seems we are slipping backwards on many fronts. Look at the rape situation, since the Delhi protests all I see on the news is this rape ad that rape....Sure the media is making an effort to get it out there but the lack of movement by gov't is pathetic. Look at how the SC bashed the govt for their shady dealings with the CBI? It's now wonder we can;t beat corruption. Looks like Sonia has something to hide.

Full fledged war is bad for us and our economy..once you start the war it takes the country back economically several years..China is economicaly stronger than us and so it can also sustain more "war days"..what MMS is doing may be a pacifier or simply putting that we dont have a solution yet..but I think instead of getting the pain from the chinese needle, enjoy it pretending as a immunization injection and be ready and steady!

This I agree. We are in no position to tackle China. They have been preparing diligantly for war for over 2 decades. Anyone thinking war at this moment is a good idea is delusional. India knew about the threat but our govt has walked slowly to counter instead of running. Some will blame democracy, but there are efficient democracies in the world. The problem lies in our gov;t....

 

[Nisha]

China has huge investments in the Gilgit-Baltistan area of Pakistani Kashmir that India claims and their military engineers are known to be working there.



If they have an issue, then we have a f-king problem. But Sonia and Rahul are too busy making billions with COALGATE and coercing the CBI to play ball.

If Indians don;t act to steer gov't, then we will prove to the world we are the world's biggest incompetent Dumocracy.

 

[cirr]

dude.. currently, more like rat in the house analogy fits better.

if you insist on the fat kid analogy.. we have sufficient to keep the fat kid afraid. -- they have made it obvious that they have got scared by Indian build-up over the past few years ... they haven't come out of bravado but out of fear.

right now, there are too few of them to waste a full bottle pesticide.

if they remain in a state of peaceful fear. .it works fine for us.
off course, if their fear and insecurity leads to any sort of escalation.. we always have a stock of pesticides ready for them.

So Indian arrogance remains intact after 1962。：-）

Want a repeat of 1962？The only difference will be that this time we come and stay。

 

[Goodbye!]

So Indian arrogance remains intact after 1962。：-）

Want a repeat of 1962？The only difference will be that this time we come and stay。

If in your own perception you could do jack $hit about India in 62, then what makes you believe you can do any different now? In between then and now we got 'em nukes also you see.

 

[RoYaL~GuJJaR]

why should we dismantle our infrastructure on LAC ? when china has built high speed rail links up-to Tibet and all across our bordering areas ?

 

[3Idiots]

So Indian arrogance remains intact after 1962。：-）

Want a repeat of 1962？The only difference will be that this time we come and stay。

Other way round ... china has forgotten the lessons it learnt in 1962.

brother.. you attempted to settle things by force in 1962 and failed. 2013 will be no different.

if you insist.. try again.. though... 2013 is yet to reach the stage of a nano-kargil, so far.

too much mega-farts .. and a damp squib on the ground.

 

[Nisha]

why should we dismantle our infrastructure on LAC ? when china has built high speed rail links up-to Tibet and all across our bordering areas ?

Exactly.....our reply should be dismantle all railroads and infrastruture in tibet and tell the Chinese military engineers to gtfo of **** occupied Cashmir. Let me remind Indians who are against the US, it was the US who provided the data and confirmed to INDia what the Chinese were up to. This was after CHina denied it to our FACE! That;s a FACT!

 

[President]

So Indian arrogance remains intact after 1962。：-）

Want a repeat of 1962？The only difference will be that this time we come and stay。

once you come..you wont be able to go back for sure..

 

[RoYaL~GuJJaR]

Exactly.....our reply should be dismantle all railroads and infrastruture in tibet and tell the Chinese military engineers to gtfo of **** occupied Cashmir. Let me remind Indians who are against the US, it was the US who provided the data and confirmed to INDia what the Chinese were up to. This was after CHina denied it to our FACE! That;s a FACT!

Thats exactly my point! Chines can built high speed rail links and concrete roads all along the bordering areas so that they can smoothly transport troops in case of war, when chines were constructing all this, IA troops didn't went into 20 km deep chines territory and than demanded either dismantle this infra or we are going to stay here, why their a$$'s started burning when we finally started upgrading infra on our side and all! This is sheer hypocrisy!

 

[Goodbye!]

sheer hypocrisy!

Let;s just construct a huge mirror wall along the Chinese border and then stand back and watch PLA $hit their pants.