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China Inc.’s Boeing Rival Just Won’t Fly

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China Inc.’s Boeing Rival Just Won’t Fly
A small order from an African airline can’t diminish the huge challenge Comac faces to disrupt the aviation duopoly.

By David Fickling - March 21, 2019 - Bloomberg

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Not ready for prime time: the C919. - Photographer: Qilai Shen/Bloomberg

It’s generally seen as a good thing for an aircraft manufacturer when an airline plans to buy its planes. So Commercial Aircraft Corp. of China Ltd. — the country’s would-be challenger to Boeing Co. and Airbus SE — should have a lot to celebrate.

Ghana’s Africa World Airlines Ltd. may agree to buy two of Comac’s ARJ21 regional jets this month, the carrier’s Chief Executive Officer John Quan told Moses Mozart Dzawu and Bruce Einhorn of Bloomberg News in an interview.

That looks like a fillip for Comac, especially considering the problems of Boeing’s 737 Max, which was grounded by Beijing’s regulators after two crashes in five months and now will be potentially excluded from a China-U.S. trade deal. The Chinese manufacturer would like to disrupt the existing commercial aircraft duopoly. Overseas purchases for the ARJ21 look like a step down that road.

Not so fast. Such a small order — from an airline part-owned by China’s debt-ridden HNA Group Co., no less — is hardly a ringing endorsement for a plane that’s been in development for the best part of two decades. Moreover, the travails of the 737 Max demonstrate just how challenging developing new aircraft is in the 21st century, let alone for a newcomer like Comac.

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About 60 percent of global air traffic passes through Europe or the U.S., and the two regions will still account for about half of the total by 2037, according to Boeing. As a result, it’s essential for any manufacturer seeking global relevance to get its planes certified as airworthy by the Federal Aviation Administration or European Aviation Safety Agency.

Without that piece of paper, aircraft are excluded from swaths of the world’s aviation market. That’s both a near-term problem — removing flexibility for global airlines in how they deploy their fleet — and a long-term one, killing off the bulk of the secondary market that carriers depend on for selling their worn-out aircraft.

With all their expertise at rolling out new models, Boeing and Airbus still struggle to complete that type certification in less than five years. One of the questions needing answers around the 737 Max is whether Boeing’s attempts to speed that process led to safety failures.

Comac first lodged an application for its would-be 737- and A320-killer, the C919, with the European regulator in 2016, so the best it could hope for would be to see approval some time in 2021. In the case of the ARJ21s being sent to Ghana, the process of winning certification from major regulators proved so challenging that Comac ultimately gave up. When the Republic of Congo — not exactly a major aviation market — became the first foreign country to award a type certificate two years ago, the manufacturer regarded it as enough of a milestone to put out a press release celebrating the fact.

Progress on getting the C919 certified seems to be going slowly, too. Comac plans to carry out 4,200 hours of flight tests, but the third of six planned prototypes took its maiden flight only in December and the rest won’t be ready until later this year. Flying all six for an hour a day, 365 days a year would require two years of testing alone, and even that looks ambitious. Existing prototypes are laid up undergoing modifications for as long as three months, the state-run China Daily reported last month. That could seriously push back the timetable.

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If everything goes to plan, it’s possible to see the C919 getting its paperwork in order before the start of 2022 — but at this rate, a date closer to 2025 would hardly be surprising. At current targeted production rates of around 60 a month for the A320neo and 737 Max, there will already be little shy of 10,000 competing Airbus and Boeing planes in the air by that time, and Boeing’s planned new midsize aircraft could be nearing its first deliveries.

Meanwhile, with maximum ranges about a third less than its competitors and the capacity to carry only about three-quarters of the weight of passengers and cargo, the C919 will be looking a generation out of date. Given it’s largely made of parts from conventional suppliers such as Honeywell International Inc. and General Electric Co., it’s going to be supremely challenging for Comac to find the cost savings necessary to undercut Boeing and Airbus outside China, where airlines will be more or less obliged to support the homegrown hero.

As George Ferguson and Francois Duflot of Bloomberg Intelligence wrote this week, all this means that rumors of an outright Chinese ban on the 737 Max are more likely to be posturing than serious proposals. At some point, the successors to the C919 may pose a formidable threat to Boeing and Airbus. For the next decade, though, the incumbents need not fret.

Source :. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...-plane-isn-t-ready-to-challenge-boeing-airbus
 
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While I don't like the prose in the article (pretty given for Bloomberg, after all), it provides some information on the challenges both C919 and COMAC have to go through to penetrate the world civilian aviation market.

The article concludes that parity is at least a decade away, if that. Given the specifics in this cut-throat market, I concur. I would be amiss though not to bet on China rapidly expanding its aviation capabilities, something that the author fails to do.
 
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While I don't like the prose in the article (pretty given for Bloomberg, after all), it provides some information on the challenges both C919 and COMAC have to go through to penetrate the world civilian aviation market.

The article concludes that parity is at least a decade away, if that. Given the specifics in this cut-throat market, I concur. I would be amiss though not to bet on China rapidly expanding its aviation capabilities, something that the author fails to do.
The Chinese will get there faster then most people think. Right now they are fine tuning. Then they will build up by meeting their own domestic market, which is largest in the world. When they have done that with experiance meets economies of scale they will spread across the world.
 
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The Chinese will get there faster then most people think. Right now they are fine tuning. Then they will build up by meeting their own domestic market, which is largest in the world. When they have done that with experiance meets economies of scale they will spread across the world.

You cannot make mistakes in civil aviation which is biggest risk for china
chinese love to sweep bad stuff under the rug

I Love the article china's banning of the 737 its just "posturing" not the fact that Boeing releasing an unsafe product that led to two crashes and and hundreds of deaths

there might be posturing. Boeing response is not what i would expect of them
 
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You cannot make mistakes in civil aviation which is biggest risk for china
chinese love to sweep bad stuff under the rug
Precisely. But the Chinese have the largest market on earth to nurture, incubate to perfection before they explode across the globe. Having huge military aerospace demand also works in tandem. This is exactly how US went on to dominate the market. Most companies in US found their feet in the defence industries and as contractors to USAF.
 
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The Chinese will get there faster then most people think. Right now they are fine tuning. Then they will build up by meeting their own domestic market, which is largest in the world. When they have done that with experiance meets economies of scale they will spread across the world.

Faster before Gangoo ehehe
 
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You cannot make mistakes in civil aviation which is biggest risk for china
chinese love to sweep bad stuff under the rug



there might be posturing. Boeing response is not what i would expect of them
It's funny how these self delusion never take a mirror and look at themselves .The one trying to sweep bad products under table and claim as safe is boeing US for their B737 max 8. ARJ-21 is still perfect product unlike your max 8 junk. You even got the cheek trying to imply it's Chinese? You are really thick skinned. :enjoy:

I admire your stupidity. :lol:
 
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It's funny how these self delusion never take a mirror and look at themselves .The one trying to sweep bad products under table and claim as safe is boeing US. You even got the cheek trying to imply it's Chinese? You are really thick skinned. :enjoy:

I admire your stupidity. :lol:

there is a word for what you said. it is called chutzpah
look it up

Precisely. But the Chinese have the largest market on earth to nurture, incubate to perfection before they explode across the globe. Having huge military aerospace demand also works in tandem. This is exactly how US went on to dominate the market. Most companies in US found their feet in the defence industries and as contractors to USAF.

USA has the largest civil aviation market. Given geography and chinese reliance on HSR it is not going to change in a long time. Look at combat aircraft. China has not gone anywhere
 
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there is a word for what you said. it is called chutzpah
look it up
No, the stupid is you. You are in denied of Boeing problem. You are in denial Boeing try to sweep problem under table that endangered peopled live. Typical sub standard American practice that corporate profits is more important than human lives. U are in denial mode. China airline and CAA is safer than FAA.

https://airlinerwatch.com/faa-disre...ertification-of-boeing-737-max-sources-claim/

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/new...ound-boeing-737-max-jets-after-crash-11338092

I have links and facts to back my words. While all u got is cheap words which is as cheap as u. :enjoy:

You are 尖货。
 
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No, the stupid is you. You are in denied of Boeing problem. You are in denial Boeing try to sweep problem under table that endangered peopled live. Typical sub standard American practice that corporate profits is more important than human lives. U are in denial mode. China airline and CAA is safer than FAA.

https://airlinerwatch.com/faa-disre...ertification-of-boeing-737-max-sources-claim/

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/new...ound-boeing-737-max-jets-after-crash-11338092

I have links and facts to back my words. While all u got is cheap words which is as cheap as u. :enjoy:

Boeing has a 50 year track record in civil aviation. Try to match it before spouting off

try making toys for children without lead paint in it
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/19/business/worldbusiness/19toys.html
 
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Boeing has a 50 year track record in civil aviation. Try to match it before spouting off
That is even worst. After trying 50years, still can't get it right in 2019? You just make it even more stupid for Boeing. American corporate places profit higher than human lives. If killing 50million people can earn them a billion USD and no lawsuit. They will not hesitate to do that. :enjoy:

American has no moral.
 
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That is even worst. After trying 50years, still can't get it right in 2019? You just make it even more stupid for Boeing. American corporate places profit higher than human lives. If killing 50million people can earn them a billion USD and no lawsuit. They will not hesitate to do that. :enjoy:

American has no moral.

Boeing is not shipping the same aircraft for 50+ years. They make modifications and changes all the time.
There are close to 10,000 Boeing jets flying. The 737 Max is a new aircraft - 376 built.

If you are wondering why Russian aircraft have not sold it is safety.
 
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Boeing is not shipping the same aircraft for 50+ years. They make modifications and changes all the time.
There are close to 10,000 Boeing jets flying. The 737 Max is a new aircraft - 376 built.

If you are wondering why Russian aircraft have not sold it is safety.

FAA is just a political tools.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/19/business/boeing-elaine-chao.html

Why drag Russian in when you yourself is the one under scrutiny? FAA will never approve Russian airplane even its better than Boeing.

New aircraft still cannot avoid the issue of safety. You are just avoiding the problem and sub standard of Boeing.
 
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FAA is just a political tools.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/19/business/boeing-elaine-chao.html

Why drag Russian in when you yourself is the one under scrutiny? FAA will never approve Russian airplane even its better than Boeing.

How many Boeing jetliners does China operate ? How many Russian civil jetliners does China operate ?

What prevents Vietnams, Indias, Pakistans, Chinas of the world from buying Russian jetliners ?

Russian aircraft are inferior
- engine reliability
- noise
- safety
- avionics
- higher maintenance costs
- higher fuel costs
 
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