China HSR News And Information: Original Translation

[AndrewJin]

The charm of Slow Trains

View attachment 377734

View attachment 377735

View attachment 377736

View attachment 377738

View attachment 377739

View attachment 377740

@ahojunk @Jguo @Daniel808 @anant_s et al

The charm of Slow Trains II

@anant_s @Mista @samsara @Daniel808 et al

 

[AndrewJin]

a less than two hour train Munich to Berlin? But why I could not find it on the Deutsche Bahn website? Even the fastest one shown by DB website needs more than 6hours for the trip! Can you let me know where to find the super fast train that you mentioned? Thanks in advance.
View attachment 382210

A critical issue on this topic is about the difference between Highest speed and Average speed.
The former one is usually grasping front pages but the latter one should be the most concerned number for we passengers.

Quite often railway companies overcharge passengers just because a tiny part of a journey reaches 300+km/h, but the journey as a whole could be covered by slower trains at a similar duration.

The following survey is the most sensible so far, only measuring the average speed which considers the time wasted on speeding up/down and all those sections of low speeds as well as time spent at intermediate stops.


World Speed Survey 2015: China remains the pacesetter

INTERNATIONAL: China remains the pacesetter in the world rail speed race, according to the latest World Speed Survey published in Railway Gazette International on July 1.

Authored by Jeremy Hartill of the UK’s Railway Performance Society, the biennial survey compiles in tabular form the fastest timetabled start-to-stop journeys between different pairs of stations in countries around the world. Most of the fastest timings occur between intermediate stations, where average speeds are not impeded by slow approaches to major city hubs.

This year, the results show a general coalescence where frequency is the main driver of performance on many routes, with maximum speeds reaching something of a plateau at or slightly above 300 km/h. Our survey finds that the ‘blue riband’ award for the world’s fastest point-to-point rail journey is taken by China Railways Corp’s G66/79, which sprint between Shijiazhuang and Zhengzhou Dong in 81 min at an average speed of 283·4 km/h in each direction. Second in the list is a pair of express trains between Beijing and Nanjing, a distance of 1 021·9 km which is covered in 219 min at an average of 280 km/h.

France, Japan, Spain and Taiwan complete the top five countries by fastest point-to-point timing. A notable entry this year is Ouigo 6284, the third-fastest train in Europe which achieves 253·2 km/h on its run between Lyon St Exupéry airport and Marne-la-Vallée-Chessy station on the outskirts of Paris. Ouigo is the low-cost TGV operation launched by SNCF in April 2013.

The world’s fastest international train is a TGV running between Brussels Midi and Aéroport Charles-de-Gaulle, which records an average of 229·7 km/h, while Eurostar ES9010 manages the London – Paris journey in 140 min at an average of 210 km/h.

While the fastest point-to-point timings are often a reflection of fast runs between intermediate stations, journeys between city hubs are usually slower. Nevertheless, plenty of trains manage to break the 200 km/h mark, led by train G66 in China, which records an astonishing average of 250·1 km/h for the 2 001 km between Guangzhou Dong and Beijing Nan stations. Close behind is the AVE service between Madrid and Barcelona, where numerous trains achieve a 150 min timing for the 621 km journey.

Although Britain’s fastest journey is Southeastern’s Stratford International – Ashford service, where seven trains manage averages of 179·6 km/h over High Speed 1, the fastest trains on the East and West Coast main lines both manage averages in excess of 175 km/h. Virgin Trains East Coast manages the fastest city-to-city dash, with its daily 05.40 Edinburgh – London King’s Cross Flying Scotsman achieving 159·3 km/h. But the 110 km/h of Amtrak’s fastest Acela Express over the 735 km between Washington Union and Boston South show how far the USA still has to go in keeping pace with its peers elsewhere in the world.

Hartill suggests that in years gone by, a handful of express trains making high speed sprints used to capture the headlines, and stand out at the top of any comparative table. ‘Today, rather than running a few select trains, more and more railways are offering a consistent service, with large numbers of regular fast trains throughout the day’, he writes. This change is very apparent in the survey results, where many of the entries would once have been a single, often named, train.

‘Now the entries are increasingly being listed as “several trains” — in some cases up to 10 or more per hour. This suggests a significant shift in railway operating practice, with routes that were once considered premium targets for lavish express trains now regarded as fast commuter corridors’, he concludes.

The complete survey appears in the July issue of Railway Gazette International, which will be available to subscribers in our digital archive. It can also be purchased as a single issue via our tablet app, available in both the Apple iTunes store and on Google Play.

 

[Viet]

@GS Zhou @AndrewJin
I haven´t said there is non-stop service between Berlin and Munich. it can offer, but actually not yet. supply and demand. if the first doesn´t exist, the second will never come. Berlin is the capital but it is not one of economic hubs of Germany, hence there is no demand for non-stop service. not yet. ICE runs at top speed 300kmh (and even higher at 330kmh) on non-stop service between Frankfurt and Cologne.

 

[GS Zhou]

ICE runs at top speed 300kmh (and even higher at 330kmh) on non-stop service between Frankfurt and Cologne.

300 to 330 kmh in between Frankfurt and Koeln? Ummm... But why I can not locate this super fast train on the DB website?

Even the fastest train shown by DB website needs 1hr04m for the travel. The Koeln-Frankfurt distance is about 190km, i.e. the train travels at 200km/h. A good speed, but obviously much slower than 300 to 330kmh that you claimed.

 

[Viet]

300 to 330 kmh in between Frankfurt and Koeln? Ummm... But why I can not locate this super fast train on the DB website?

Even the fastest train shown by DB website needs 1hr04m for the travel. The Koeln-Frankfurt distance is about 190km, i.e. the train travels at 200km/h. A good speed, but obviously much slower than 300 to 330kmh that you claimed.
View attachment 382258

have I said the train runs at average speed of 330km between Frankfurt and Cologne? No. 330kmh is the designed top speed of ICE3. I said it can run at top speed. because the train loses time between acceleration and de-acceleration, its average speed is lower. the other thing is Germany has the same landmass like VN, but its cities are more densely packed, while VN is longer from North to South, german HSR can´t utilize all full advantages.

yes, you are correct with the highlighted trip. a Frankfurt and Cologne one-way trip costs 73 euro. 59,90 euro as discount price.

 

[jhungary]

300 to 330 kmh in between Frankfurt and Koeln? Ummm... But why I can not locate this super fast train on the DB website?

Even the fastest train shown by DB website needs 1hr04m for the travel. The Koeln-Frankfurt distance is about 190km, i.e. the train travels at 200km/h. A good speed, but obviously much slower than 300 to 330kmh that you claimed.
View attachment 382258

Train in build up area usually don't travel with top speed. All the curve, crossing and siding would mean trains are usually going at a speed limit, unlike Autobaun

Also, you are talking about the direct distant between Frankfurt and Cologne, a train does not travel from A to B in a straight line, you need to talk about the gauge distant. That's where the train goes.

 

[AndrewJin]

300 to 330 kmh in between Frankfurt and Koeln? Ummm... But why I can not locate this super fast train on the DB website?

Even the fastest train shown by DB website needs 1hr04m for the travel. The Koeln-Frankfurt distance is about 190km, i.e. the train travels at 200km/h. A good speed, but obviously much slower than 300 to 330kmh that you claimed.
View attachment 382258

I am quite familiar with HSRs in Europe.
France is doing much better in terms of average speed.

It's not about acceleration or deceleration (every HSR in every country has this issue).
It's not about curves or crossings....OMG
No train travels in straight lines, OF COURSE (what kind of reasoning is that?, lmao).
Nobody in this industry gauges the railway distance by using the direct distance on the map......( i feel speechless writing these lines)

(I kindly suggest those come from a country where 100km/h is considered fast speed do not make assumptions in this highly technology-based thread, very silly)


The average speed in Germany is slow, because the real "High-speed" section of a given route is short.
The following map explains everything.

ICE network * red: High-speed lines for 300 km/h (186 mph) * orange: High-speed lines for 250 to 280 km/h (156 to 175 mph) * blue:Upgraded lines, 200 to 230 km/h (125 to 145 mph) * grey: Other lines, max. 160 km/h (100 mph)

From this map, we can easily come to the reason why it takes so long from München to Berlin.

@GS Zhou @AndrewJin
I haven´t said there is non-stop service between Berlin and Munich. it can offer, but actually not yet. supply and demand. if the first doesn´t exist, the second will never come. Berlin is the capital but it is not one of economic hubs of Germany, hence there is no demand for non-stop service. not yet. ICE runs at top speed 300kmh (and even higher at 330kmh) on non-stop service between Frankfurt and Cologne.

This is not the reason.
Pls refer to the above map.

300 to 330 kmh in between Frankfurt and Koeln? Ummm... But why I can not locate this super fast train on the DB website?

Even the fastest train shown by DB website needs 1hr04m for the travel. The Koeln-Frankfurt distance is about 190km, i.e. the train travels at 200km/h. A good speed, but obviously much slower than 300 to 330kmh that you claimed.
View attachment 382258

Frankfurt to Köln, 1 hour, average speed 200km/h.
If we consider midway stops and the slower section south to Köln, the duration is acceptable.

The main problem is from Berlin to München, there are many traditional sections (upgraded to cope with bullet trains such as signal system, but speed cannot be improved because of limitation of tracks), hence it is quite slow.

 

[Viet]

I am quite familiar with HSRs in Europe.
France is doing much better in terms of average speed.

It's not about acceleration or deceleration (every HSR in every country has this issue).
It's not about curves or crossings....OMG
No train travels in straight lines, OF COURSE (what kind of reasoning is that?, lmao).
Nobody in this industry gauges the railway distance by using the direct distance on the map......( i feel speechless writing these lines)

(I kindly suggest those come from a country where 100km/h is considered fast speed do not make assumptions in this highly technology-based thread, very silly)


The average speed in Germany is slow, because the real "High-speed" section of a given route is short.
The following map explains everything.
View attachment 382286

ICE network * red: High-speed lines for 300 km/h (186 mph) * orange: High-speed lines for 250 to 280 km/h (156 to 175 mph) * blue:Upgraded lines, 200 to 230 km/h (125 to 145 mph) * grey: Other lines, max. 160 km/h (100 mph)

From this map, we can easily come to the reason why it takes so long from München to Berlin.


This is not the reason.
Pls refer to the above map.


Frankfurt to Köln, 1 hour, average speed 200km/h.
If we consider midway stops and the slower section south to Köln, the duration is acceptable.

The main problem is from Berlin to München, there are many traditional sections (upgraded to cope with bullet trains such as signal system, but speed cannot be improved because of limitation of tracks), hence it is quite slow.

there is Frankfurt-Cologne with non-stop service. correct, France does better in HSR than Germany. but regardless, you probably know the german proverd: der Weg ist das Ziel. not the destination is your final, but the road leads to it. so enjoy yourself while riding on a slow rail

 

[AndrewJin]

there is Frankfurt-Cologne with non-stop service. correct, France does better in HSR than Germany. but regardless, you probably know the german proverd: der Weg ist das Ziel. not the destination is your final, but the road leads to it. so enjoy yourself while riding on a slow rail

Tourists trains are fine, you can have that on conventional lines.
In China and Europe, a key corridor could be comprised of 2-3 lines, one for freight, one for <160km/h slow trains and one the real dedicated high-speed railway.

You can see the difference in France, the network is complete centering around Paris, no too many slow sections in between.
I know some German railway fans in person, sometimes they are a little bit frustrated.
But I understand the dense distribution of smaller cities in Germany.
Germany is more multi-centrered unlike France, hence a more integrated and complete HSR network is highly desired especially between West and East Germany.
Let's see the development in the future, I know the plans in Germany.

 

[GS Zhou]

Also, you are talking about the direct distant between Frankfurt and Cologne, a train does not travel from A to B in a straight line, you need to talk about the gauge distant. That's where the train goes.

the direct distance between Frankfurt and Koeln is ~150km. The 190km distance I mentioned in my post already leaves the space for the real gauge length.

 

[jhungary]

the direct distance between Frankfurt and Koeln is ~150km. The 190km distance I mentioned in my post already leaves the space for the real gauge length.
View attachment 382328

just saying you should not use an arbitory distance to caculate the speed, unless you know exactly how long has the track actually running from.

 

[AndrewJin]

the direct distance between Frankfurt and Koeln is ~150km. The 190km distance I mentioned in my post already leaves the space for the real gauge length.
View attachment 382328

No people uses direct distance in this industry, you r right.

When we we say 1300km from Beijing to Shanghai by bullet trains in 4 hours we mean REAL distance on the railway.

 

[Viet]

Tourists trains are fine, you can have that on conventional lines.
In China and Europe, a key corridor could be comprised of 2-3 lines, one for freight, one for <160km/h slow trains and one the real dedicated high-speed railway.

You can see the difference in France, the network is complete centering around Paris, no too many slow sections in between.
I know some German railway fans in person, sometimes they are a little bit frustrated.
But I understand the dense distribution of smaller cities in Germany.
Germany is more multi-centrered unlike France, hence a more integrated and complete HSR network is highly desired especially between West and East Germany.
Let's see the development in the future, I know the plans in Germany.
View attachment 382320

unless Angela Merkel is ready to invest huge money, you shouldn´t place great hope on Germany HSR plans, or even normal rails. Germany rail services have become terrible over the years due to lack of investments. ever tried to ride on IC trains? I had to do for a month because of a project. bad worse worst.

the direct distance between Frankfurt and Koeln is ~150km. The 190km distance I mentioned in my post already leaves the space for the real gauge length.
View attachment 382328

150km is the distance between the borders. if you take a car or train from center to center, it is about 180km (train), 190km (car).

 

[AndrewJin]

unless Angela Merkel is ready to invest huge money, you shouldn´t place great hope on Germany HSR plans, or even normal rails. Germany rail services have become terrible over the years due to lack of investments. ever tried to ride on IC trains? I had to do for a month because of a project. terrible.

I have heard of the punctuality issue emerging during the recent years.

@Götterdämmerung maybe just get rid of her! Priority should be given to infrastructure.

But you know what, all these issues are nothing when you compare to the amazingly ridiculous railway debacle in Brisbane to which my hometown has just launched a direct flight. No train driver!
@anant_s search that news!

 

[GS Zhou]

just saying you should not use an arbitory distance to caculate the speed, unless you know exactly how long has the track actually running from.

yes, you are right, I should not use an arbitrary distance to calculate the speed.

The actual length of the Frankfurt/Koeln high speed train line is 177km; the shortest time required for a one-way trip is 64minute, i.e. the train is traveling at 165kmh in average.

I obviously overestimate its length, thus overestimate its speed. Thanks for the reminder.