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China Credit Outlook Cut to Negative From Stable by Moody's

F-22Raptor

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China’s credit-rating outlook was lowered to negative from stable at Moody’s Investors Service, which highlighted the country’s surging debt burden and questioned the government’s ability to implement reforms just days before leaders gather to approve a five-year road map for the economy.

The government’s financial strength may come under pressure if it takes on liabilities from troubled state-owned companies, while capital outflows have limited policy makers’ scope to stimulate the weakest economy in a quarter century, the ratings company said in a statement on Wednesday. State intervention in equity and foreign-exchange markets has heightened uncertainty about the leadership’s commitment to reforms, Moody’s said.

While market reaction to the outlook cut was muted on Wednesday, it highlights growing concern among global investors that the ruling Communist Party will struggle to overhaul Asia’s largest economy at a time when debt levels have climbed to an unprecedented 247 percent of gross domestic product. Chinese leaders will begin nearly two weeks of policy meetings on Saturday to map out how to tackle the nation’s economic challenges and meet the government’s goal of doubling per-capita income by 2020.

“The government’s ability to absorb shocks has diminished and we want to signal this in the negative outlook,” Marie Diron, a senior vice president at Moody’s, said in an interview on Bloomberg Television. Authorities “have stepped backward in their reform steps and so that is creating some uncertainty.”

Market Concerns
The concerns flagged by Moody’s have already manifested themselves in markets in recent months. The cost to insure Chinese government bonds against default for five years has climbed about 38 basis points, or 0.38 percentage point, since mid-November to 134 basis points. That’s approaching the 151 basis-point cost for credit-default swaps on Thailand, which has a Moody’s rating four levels below that of China.

Chinese stocks, meanwhile, have dropped 23 percent this year and the yuan has slipped 0.8 percent in onshore trading against the U.S. dollar. In Wednesday trading, credit-default swaps were little changed, while the Shanghai Composite Index climbed 1.2 percent and the yuan rose less than 0.1 percent.

“The ratings haven’t been changed so I expect market reaction to initially be muted,” said Andy Ji, a Singapore-based foreign-exchange strategist and economist at Commonwealth Bank of Australia. “There’s no new information here, just recognition of the issues we’ve known for years.”


While Moody’s cut its outlook, the ratings company also highlighted its rationale for affirming China’s long-term credit rating of Aa3, the fourth-highest investment grade. The large size of China’s economy contributes to its credit strength, while growth is still higher there than most of its peers. The country also has a moderate level of low-cost government debt, high domestic savings and substantial foreign-exchange reserves, Moody’s said.

The ratings company said it may downgrade China’s rating if the pace of reforms needed to support growth slows, while it would revise the outlook to stable if the nation reduces its liabilities by restructuring state-owned enterprises.

China Credit Outlook Cut to Negative From Stable by Moody's - Bloomberg Business
 
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I do not think countries like China or Japan will really care about Moody's or other credit rating agencies. After all, they are not in debt to anyone, but are creditors of many countries, including the US and Europe. It is very different to the case of the US, France or Greece.
 
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United States credit rating agencies could not even predict its own country's economic failure, and now it tries to do so with others. American credit agencies should gain some credit first before thinking anyone would take them seriously.
 
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Credit rating agencies from a debtor nation? And the biggest of all? Back in the future, someone still live in pre-Reagan times?

Let's come back to present day reality. China Mainland alone is a creditor on par with Germany, China combined is the largest creditor nation exceeding Japan.
 
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Credit rating agencies from a debtor nation? And the biggest of all? Back in the future, someone still live in pre-Reagan times?

Let's come back to present day reality. China Mainland alone is a creditor on par with Germany, China combined is the largest creditor nation exceeding Japan.
Maybe the rating from Moody's have changed and have not informed the public. They will give your AA rating if you're a debtor nation and CC if you're creditor nation

:enjoy:
 
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I do not think countries like China or Japan will really care about Moody's or other credit rating agencies. After all, they are not in debt to anyone, but are creditors of many countries, including the US and Europe. It is very different to the case of the US, France or Greece.

ALL, I repeat, ALL country are in debt, unless your country can fork out 30 trillions cold hard cash for daily operation, your country is in debt, money and currency itself are debt, which is a credit give out by central bank and they guarantee the value of said currency. That's why an official tender of 100 RMB note worth a 100 RMB, an apple in which you crafted the number 100 in it does not worth anything but maybe 3 or 4 RMB. Even tho in actual value, an apple cost a lot more than the banknote.

While market reaction to the outlook cut was muted on Wednesday, it highlights growing concern among global investors that the ruling Communist Party will struggle to overhaul Asia’s largest economy at a time when debt levels have climbed to an unprecedented 247 percent of gross domestic product. Chinese leaders will begin nearly two weeks of policy meetings on Saturday to map out how to tackle the nation’s economic challenges and meet the government’s goal of doubling per-capita income by 2020.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/china-credit-outlook-cut-to-negative-from-stable-by-moodys.424147/#ixzz41kvDUjTV

Chinese debt are level are 247% of China GDP, meaning, China have a total circulation of 24.7 trillions value of currency out-there, but only with 10 or so Trillion dollar GDP. Care to guess how they can have more than 247 % of their currency in circulation with just 10 trillions GDP? They borrow RMB from some other country's foreign exchange.

And if you have to borrow from someone, then credit rating must be established. This is very basic economics......

The rest of the post in this thread is simply, meh..........
 
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ALL, I repeat, ALL country are in debt, unless your country can fork out 30 trillions cold hard cash for daily operation, your country is in debt, money and currency itself are debt, which is a credit give out by central bank and they guarantee the value of said currency. That's why an official tender of 100 RMB note worth a 100 RMB, an apple in which you crafted the number 100 in it does not worth anything but maybe 3 or 4 RMB. Even tho in actual value, an apple cost a lot more than the banknote.


ALL, let me repeat, ALL countries have both External Assets and External Liabilities. When External Assets exceed External Liabilities, this is a CREDITOR NATION, if the opposite then it's a DEBTOR NATION.


You, let me advise, rather than making up your own stories and mislead other posters, why not spend a minute and check official International Monetary Fund definition, latest guidelines are in BPM6 (Balance of Payments Manual 6th Edition), will you?

Here is a sample of NIIP data of various countries:

Untitled.png

By now, the net international investment position at the end of the third quarter of 2015 was -$7,269.8 billion, further deteriorated from end 2014. Check this official link will you?


USA is the world's largest debtor nation.
China is the world's largest creditor nation.

ALL, I repeat, all simple straightforward FACTS.


@waz @WebMaster Should posters be banned for spreading fake information?


Chinese debt are level are 247% of China GDP, meaning, China have a total circulation of 24.7 trillions value of currency out-there, but only with 10 or so Trillion dollar GDP. Care to guess how they can have more than 247 % of their currency in circulation with just 10 trillions GDP? They borrow RMB from some other country's foreign exchange.

And if you have to borrow from someone, then credit rating must be established. This is very basic economics......

The rest of the post in this thread is simply, meh..........


First of all, do you know what is DEBT? You mean gross external, net external, gross domestic to private sector, public/government ... what are you talking about? OK, let's talk about it one by one. Secondly, do not confuse MONEY SUPPLY with any form of debt, all are entirely different things. What's MONEY SUPPLY? Check some finance textbook before talking will you?

Now let's start on your favourite China DEBT "crisis", one by one. First, I have enlightened you on EXTERNAL SECTOR (Net International Investment Position, CREDITOR NATION, DEBTOR NATION) in the previous post, US is the BIGGEST DEBTOR NATION undisputedly, sadly China is on the exact opposite end. Satisfied?

Next learn DOMESTIC CREDIT TO PRIVATE SECTOR, yes ALL nations have this market, so ALL have it. Let's see, China 141.80%, USA 194.75%, USA higher, so what's your view? Still China collapse?


Side-track from debt to a related parameter, do you know credits are supported by savings? You might as well learn this called GROSS NATIONAL SAVINGS, see below from your CIA Factbook. China was 47.4%, US is 18.2%, try compare the ratio with above will you?​

Next let's see more frequently talked PUBLIC DEBT (also known as government debt, national debt or sovereign debt), again no blog, no presstitude, straight to IMF Data shall we? China 43.2%, US 104.85%, what's your view?

1.png
 
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This is the same Moody's that was handing out 'triple-A' rated CDO's like candy back in 2006 right before the housing bubble. How did that work out during the 07-08 Financial Crisis? If I remember correctly, over 70% of these so-called 'triple-A' rated securities were downgraded to 'junk'.
 
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This is the same Moody's that was handing out 'triple-A' rated CDO's like candy back in 2006 right before the housing bubble. How did that work out during the 07-08 Financial Crisis? If I remember correctly, over 70% of these so-called 'triple-A' rated securities were downgraded to 'junk'.

I guess you can call it the "Moody Swing Effect". :lol:
 
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In this case, I'd rather be the country that owes debt. If a war break out, all debt are defaulted. LOL
 
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Chinese debt are level are 247% of China GDP, meaning, China have a total circulation of 24.7 trillions value of currency out-there, but only with 10 or so Trillion dollar GDP. Care to guess how they can have more than 247 % of their currency in circulation with just 10 trillions GDP? They borrow RMB from some other country's foreign exchange.

And if you have to borrow from someone, then credit rating must be established. This is very basic economics......

The rest of the post in this thread is simply, meh..........

What the **** are you talking about? 247% is "total debt." This is money owed to Chinese savers by Chinese borrowers.
 
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In this case, I'd rather be the country that owes debt. If a war break out, all debt are defaulted. LOL

Would love to see someone start a war with China, Germany or Japan. :lol:
 
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ALL, let me repeat, ALL countries have both External Assets and External Liabilities. When External Assets exceed External Liabilities, this is a CREDITOR NATION, if the opposite then it's a DEBTOR NATION.


You, let me advise, rather than making up your own stories and mislead other posters, why not spend a minute and check official International Monetary Fund definition, latest guidelines are in BPM6 (Balance of Payments Manual 6th Edition), will you?

Here is a sample of NIIP data of various countries:


By now, the net international investment position at the end of the third quarter of 2015 was -$7,269.8 billion, further deteriorated from end 2014. Check this official link will you?


USA is the world's largest debtor nation.
China is the world's largest creditor nation.

ALL, I repeat, all simple straightforward FACTS.


@waz @WebMaster Should posters be banned for spreading fake information?





First of all, do you know what is DEBT? You mean gross external, net external, gross domestic to private sector, public/government ... what are you talking about? OK, let's talk about it one by one. Secondly, do not confuse MONEY SUPPLY with any form of debt, all are entirely different things. What's MONEY SUPPLY? Check some finance textbook before talking will you?

Now let's start on your favourite China DEBT "crisis", one by one. First, I have enlightened you on EXTERNAL SECTOR (Net International Investment Position, CREDITOR NATION, DEBTOR NATION) in the previous post, US is the BIGGEST DEBTOR NATION undisputedly, sadly China is on the exact opposite end. Satisfied?

Next learn DOMESTIC CREDIT TO PRIVATE SECTOR, yes ALL nations have this market, so ALL have it. Let's see, China 141.80%, USA 194.75%, USA higher, so what's your view? Still China collapse?


Side-track from debt to a related parameter, do you know credits are supported by savings? You might as well learn this called GROSS NATIONAL SAVINGS, see below from your CIA Factbook. China was 47.4%, US is 18.2%, try compare the ratio with above will you?​

Next let's see more frequently talked PUBLIC DEBT (also known as government debt, national debt or sovereign debt), again no blog, no presstitude, straight to IMF Data shall we? China 43.2%, US 104.85%, what's your view?


Dude, you probably are the one that is misleading the poster. Essentially, you are saying since China is the biggest creditor on earth, they do not have debt? LOL since when did having a surplus have anything to do with having debt?

My point being every country are in debt is actual debt. A basic of economic principal. To which the correct macroeconomic term for fiat currency are "Debt-Based Currency"

Fiat Currency | Fiat Planet
Credit theory of money - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.princeton.edu/~markus/research/papers/i_theory.pdf

It have been studied since early 1900s. By economist Alfred Mitchell-Innes. Which theorized that all currency is debt. While what you are talking about is the "Public Debt" and "Government Surplus". Which related to Accounting.

Your concept of debt is that if after your balanced your books, your asset is more than expense, then you are in credit (Means positive revenue) or if you have more expense than asset, then you are in debt, while in Economic theory, all fiat money are debts/credits (Depending on which way you are looking at)

As I explained in my post. Fiat Money is a paper that you use as tendered currency, and while the paper itself does not worth anything, the tender (or issuing authority) would have to vouch that your tender can exchange the face amount.

Say on one hand, you have a 100RMB note, on the other, an Apple which have a number 100 crafted on it.

Now, when you go out and try to spend that 100 RMB, you can use it to get 100RMB worth of goods and service. But if you bring your apple out and try to spend it, people will ask you to eat it, and at best, you can get another apple. Now, noted that the 100RMB which was printed on is worth "SIGNIFICANTLY" less than the apple, which a 100 RMB may actually cost 1 cents to prints, while the apple you are holding cost 3 or 4 RMB to buy.

Now, imagine this, you are holding a 100RMB notes, it only worth 100RMB because the bank have vouched it can let you exchange 100RMB worth of goods and service. Now what happened if the bank stop guarantee that? In theory, you are holding 99.99RMB debt (as in 99.99 RMB out of pocket yourselves). Because that is the value of the money, if the Central Bank of China stop guarantee that as legal tender.

Now, based on this, all money are debt, because it only worth that much because the bank said so. And unforntuately the world does not work on "Numerical Value system" Do you know what does that means?

Last year,the Chinese GDP reaches 11.38 trillions USD. Converting them to RMB would means Chines GDP is somewhere about 70 trillions RMB. My question is can you actually use them or spend them? NO (Capital N, Capital O). They exist on paper, as they are the value you add, subtract or balance, and while they are money, they aren't actually the same money you have in your wallet. That's when I go into a bank and ask them to show me 70 trillions worth of 100 RMB note, it cannot be done.Simply because Chinese hard currency does not have that much RMB in circulation. So, how do you actually guarantee the value that you have earn that much and convert them into hard currency so you can use it? Care to guess how??

Your central bank balance the need of currency by selling, buying and BORROWING from other country. So that they can continue to vouch for the value and you have 11.38 trillions GDP. If they failed to do so, that 11.38 trillions will not worth 11.38 trillions, as since they cannot voiuch for the value, they may as well have 11.38 trillions apple.

Just because your country have surplus, does not mean they did not borrow anything or have debts. I have a debit bank account, which have around 20,000 AUD in it, yet I have a credit card which I owe some 1,000 to commonwealth bank (I don't quite remember) I can both be having a surplus and having a debt. Is it so hard for you people to understand, I know this is Post Grad level Economics, but still....

Also, in case you don't know, if you have bothered to read the article, like you should before shooting it down, it said so that while the downgraded the outlook due to the investment environment, they did not downgrade the status (Which remain in AA) because the Chinese have enough surplus to finance a financial reform, the downgrade of outlook is due to the instability of Chinese financial market, that would require a reform. That means they do acknowledge while China in fact have debt, they are able to cover it (At least for now).

Before you call other misleading, Better bush up your own knowledge before opening your mouth and call for my ban. Otherwise it will make you look stupid.
 
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lol, it's articles like these that gets these guys hard. Who are we to stand in the way of a boner. I say rock on.
 
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