China cozying up with Dalai

[Wholegrain]

You must be good in Chinese character. I go and look up 閩 and 蠻, and indeed, records indicate that we are called barbarians by ancient Han. And it could be that 閩 = 蠻. Thanks for your help. I am still not aware of that until just now.

Many Southern Chinese did not went Vietnam and are not aware of our historical connections. And many vietnamese did not know how deeply they are related S Chinese.

If these people are aware, policy makers would be it difficult to make us fight.

Once S Chinese set foot in Vietnam like I did, they will realize that they are seeing their own tribe everywhere. I cannot say that when I go to Shanghai and Beijing. I think S Chinese and Vietnam should communicate with one another more.

The pure descendants of the min yue people are the Tanka

Taiwan: A New History - Google Books

Fuzhou Tanka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tanka people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Many modern Fujian and Guangdong people are descended from Northern Chinese who moved south hundreds of years ago.

Portrait of a Community: Society, Culture, And the Structures of Kinship in ... - Hugh R. Clark - Google Books

Portrait of a Community: Society, Culture, And the Structures of Kinship in ... - Hugh R. Clark - Google Books

Some Fujianese families claim descent from famous people like Guo Ziyi. In Quanzhou there are even many people descended from Arabs and Persians like the Ding, Guo and Xia clans. They are certainly not brothers to the Vietnamese!

CHINESE-IRANIAN RELATIONS vii. SE. China ? Encyclopaedia Iranica

During the Jin dynasty many northerners fled south.

A History of Chinese Civilization - Jacques Gernet - Google Books

In the Shadow of the Han: Literati Thought and Society at the Beginning of ... - Charles Holcombe - Google Books

Cantonese still call themselves people of Tang after the Tang dynasty because alot of their ancestors were northerners who fled to Guangdong during that period.

Remember the saying in Taiwan, "mainland grandfather no mainland grandmother" 有唐山公無唐山媽

You are from Sngapore, it is possible you could have maternal ancestors from an Indonesian ethnic group whom your male ancestors from Fujian married if you are a Straits Chinese and not from recent migrants.

I am descended from southern Chinese and I could have Miao or Yao minority women ancestors in the maternal line. But I do not care.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

My family originated from Quanzhou and all of my ancestors from great grandparents are from Quanzhou. I do not like any idea of fighting between Vietnam and China and also all other Sino Tibetan tribe should not fight one-another. Not only that China, Japan, Korea and Mongolia should not fight.

Also the the 1979 war make Vietnamese quite angry with good reason. The PLA scourge earth the entire Northern Vietnam. PLA even shoot women (then their women fought as well).

The 1979 war could be first, a agreement between Deng Xiaoping and Carter to contain Vietnam arm forces from expanding further into other SE Asia.

Also Deng Xiaoping use Vietnam war to purge PLA, planting cronies, never mind how much pain it inflict to civilian. Deng Xiaoping consolidation of power not only in PLA but also in communist party could be the outcome of war. He fought a war to divert internal problem. While how credible is "Deng conspiracy" is unknown, but this theory has been poping up in numerous sources.

當年鄧小平發動戰爭是基於政治考慮 。鄧公的改革派復出不久 , 擔任了中央副主席、 國務院副總理等等要職 ; 但與舊勢力華國鋒之間的權力鬥爭愈來愈劇烈 , 稍有差錯反對派便隨機反擊 ; 時勢非常險峻。

其次解放軍內部各派系林立 , 管理非常混亂 ; 致軍令上行不能下效 。 鄧公藉著戰爭來重整軍權 , 令華國鋒權力架空。後期鄧公集軍政大權於一身 , 準備日後開放攺革運動。

鄧公亦考慮國家安全為依歸。當時中蘇交惡 ; 蘇聯在中俄邊境陳兵百萬 , 對國家安全構成危險 , 要加強抗衡蘇聯。唯有跟美國及西方世界合作 ; 美國亦歡迎中國加入陣線 , 後來美國更樂見中國實行自衞反擊戰懲罰越南。
有個傳聞講中國出兵越南 , 蘇聯從後核子打擊中國 ; 美國會視為蘇聯對美國發動核戰而給予還擊。

除此之外 ; 當時中國經歷一連串政治動盪運動 。人民民心不安 ; 更產生厭惡共產黨統治。因此鄧公發動戰爭來轉移民眾注意力 ; 消除國內人民不滿情緒。

I am not saying Vietnam has did everything right. Vietnam did something wrong also. Today, Vietnam elites is much more clever and succinct. I have come across certain leaks and it shows that Vietnamese government are not so hostile to China as media portray. In short, all these are politics. All these are posturizing.

The mongoloid people should work together and not fight.

As I have mentioned, Vietnam independence is not a bad thing. A independence Vietnam is invigorated and she took over all the Indianize states in SE Asia and Sinicized them. Do you want a India in next to Guangzhou?

As a SE Asian who always interact with Indians, I can assure they are extremely difficult to work with and extremely difficult to reach a deal with them.

A lot of Vietnamese who voice out against China is Chinese Vietnamese. China got to do some soul searching.

 

[EastSea]

(classic, can't rebuttal, talk about Mongol/Manchu) No it cannot. In fact the Mongols and Manchu went out of their way to declare themselves to be legitimate successor rulers of China. Always dealt with other countries as China, never Mongolia or Manchuria. You know Mongol Yuan did not even last 1 century btw. See European treaties with Qing China for example. Also Mongol and Manchu is LONGGGG after the creation of Imperial China, which was the actual point.

He was a Shu Prince. Only Viets these days cannot even read their own historical records.

Had nothing to do with Viet military though. There was no battle where you pushed them out. You even ended up losing border territory to China.

In the end, even the name of Vietnam is Chinese created and approved. You tried to call yourself NamViet, the same old kingdom of Nanyue, but were not allowed by the Qing Emperor. End up with Vietnam instead. Another shining example of the super independent Vietnamese of the past.

You can not deny that you are ruled by Mongolian and Manchus or other Northerner tribes in your history.

Battle of Ngọc Hồi-Đống Đa was fought between Tây-Sơn (Vietnamese) and Man Qing China in Ngọc Hồi and Đống Đa northern Vietnam from 1788 to 1789. It is considered one of the greatest victories in Vietnamese military history.

 

[Over9000]

You can not deny that you are ruled by Mongolian and Manchus or other Northerner tribes in your history.

Battle of Ngọc Hồi-Đống Đa was fought between Tây-Sơn (Vietnamese) and Man Qing China in Ngọc Hồi and Đống Đa northern Vietnam from 1788 to 1789. It is considered one of the greatest victories in Vietnamese military history.

I do not have to. It is irrelevant to the point. Talking about dynasties over a thousand years after the creation of Imperial China, is not a rebuttal to the creation of Vietnam by Chinese. I suggest you improve your critical thinking skills if you cannot understand this. Actually it is such a simple concept it probably does not require much critical thinking.

You worry me. It seems you cannot keep topics straight even when you yourself name the years of the topic. You claim "it is good enough" when saying Chinese and Americans went home. I pointed out to you not only did you lose territory to China, but it had nothing to do with Vietnamese military. Somehow you come up with something centuries before, despite your original post dating 1973 and 1979. If it was not so common for Vietnamese to bring up Mongol/Manchu every time they are hurt about history (despite paying tribute regardless of who controlled China), I might be surprised.

It is clear that the main characteristic of Vietnamese, desperation, has kicked in. You can't even follow your own talking points.

 

[EastSea]

I do not have to. It is irrelevant to the point. Talking about dynasties over a thousand years after the creation of Imperial China, is not a rebuttal to the creation of Vietnam by Chinese. I suggest you improve your critical thinking skills if you cannot understand this. Actually it is such a simple concept it probably does not require much critical thinking.

You worry me. It seems you cannot keep topics straight even when you yourself name the years of the topic. You claim "it is good enough" when saying Chinese and Americans went home. I pointed out to you not only did you lose territory to China, but it had nothing to do with Vietnamese military. Somehow you come up with something centuries before, despite your original post dating 1973 and 1979. If it was not so common for Vietnamese to bring up Mongol/Manchu every time they are hurt about history (despite paying tribute regardless of who controlled China), I might be surprised.

It is clear that the main characteristic of Vietnamese, desperation, has kicked in. You can't even follow your own talking points.

Dirty Chinese aggressors, you have to hand back territory and Islands you robbed form Vietnam, stupid thiefs .

 

[basharfark]

EastSea, using foul language to further your agenda will get you nowhere

 

[EastSea]

EastSea, using foul language to further your agenda will get you nowhere

How can can I answer (politely ?) to your countryman who admitted the truth is that you chinese robbed our territory and Islands,

 

[basharfark]

that still gives you no right to refer to us as dirty just because chinese government has claims and occupies those islands.

 

[EastSea]

who is cheerleader for illegal action of China govt robbed our Islands, troll on our loses, he is dirty chinese, not Chinese people in general.
In the past, Chinese people and Vietnamese people were victim of wars initiated by foreign invaders.

 

[Okemos]

Every freaking China-related thread somehow got turned into Vietnam whining about SC Sea dispute? gee. Do we even have mods?

Also the above lengthy posts about Fujian relation with Vietnam are so misinformed. Ask Fujian people living in Fujian, whether they think they have any connection with Vietnam, you who have been living in SE Asia for generations certainly feel close to SE Asians. Humans are societal animals anyway and history and blood affinity will be forgotten if not passed down either through education or through parents.

The fact that you feel closer to Vietnamese than to Shanghai-nese proves my point. Fujian is much much closer geographically to Shanghai. If we want to bring up history from 2500 years ago, Shanghai area was also part of Yue Kingdom, after the fall of Yue Kingdom, many fled to Minyue Kingdom in Fujian. Vietnam is so remote that it didn't even come to picture in China's history till Qin sent army to station in Guangdong area, the Nanyue Kingdom. Vietnam is south of Yue, not even part of any Yue kingdoms in China's history.

Oh I am from Zhejiang, the heart of Yue Kingdom, do I feel close to Vietnam? Heck no.

Anyway, I am derailing this thread. Mods really should rein in.

 

[visom]

I don't understand why many Chinese have issues with the Dalai Lama. In my university, we learned that during Mao's reign, he told the Dalai Lama about communism and how it provides equality. Dalai Lama thought it was a good idea at the time and agreed to merge Tibet with China until he's seen how Mao treated his country and now he wants Tibet back, I don't see the big problem in just giving Tibet back.

 

[Wholegrain]

@Lux de Veritas

I notice you have some of the same thinking as @sayina2012 and @FlowerSummer regarding Manchus and other northern peoples.

After a sliver of northern China fell to the Khitan Liao, the Han population in the northern districts including Beijing stayed in place and were loyal to the Liao. One prominent family who served in the Liao dynasty were of Han origin.

遼朝陪都南京城 漢族世家顯貴(圖)——華夏文明——ä¸*國經濟網

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When the Khitan royal family under Yelu Dashi fled to central asia and established the Kara Khitai or Kara Khitan Khanate, they introduced Confucianism, Chinese culture and language to the region.

When the Qing took over China, even though their royal family is Manchu, they appointed a Ming Imperial descendant as a Marquis and kept this hereditary title for the Ming dynasty imperial family descendants. They also kept the same Duke Yansheng title for Confucius descendants.

In fact even when the Mongols invaded China and establish the Yuan dynasty, they did not try to exterminate the Song Imperial family. Zhao Mengfu was a Song descendant and painted during the Yuan dynasty and the Yuan did not try to kill off the many other collateral branches of the Song imperial family. Only the main line directly descended from the last emperors died during the conquest.

If the Qing were "evil" and intended on destroying China they would murder every noble family of China and not grant titles to the Ming imperial family, Confucius's lineage or continue to promote Confucianism.

Sparing the preceding royal family after overthrowing them was common in China. If the King and his sons were killed then the collateral branches (patrilineal cousins) would be granted titles and allowed to live.

@Ahiska is it common in other civilizations to spare the royal family after overthrowing them? Or more common to exterminate them?

 

[Lux de Veritas]

@Lux de Veritas

I notice you have some of the same thinking as @sayina2012 and @FlowerSummer regarding Manchus and other northern peoples.

After a sliver of northern China fell to the Khitan Liao, the Han population in the northern districts including Beijing stayed in place and were loyal to the Liao. One prominent family who served in the Liao dynasty were of Han origin.

遼朝陪都南京城 漢族世家顯貴(åœ&#8211——華夏文明——ä¸*國經濟網

º«ÊϼÒ×åÁÉ´úÎÄ»¯°üÈݵļûÖ¤ £*£*¡¡Ð»ªÍøÄÚÃɹÅƵµÀ¡¡ÄÚÃɹÅÐÂÎÅ¡¡²ÝÔ*¡¡²ÝÔ*ÂÃÓΡ¡²ÝÔ*ÎÄ»¯¡¡²ÝÔ*Òûʳ¡¡²ÝÔ*½ðÇú

When the Khitan royal family under Yelu Dashi fled to central asia and established the Kara Khitai or Kara Khitan Khanate, they introduced Confucianism, Chinese culture and language to the region.

When the Qing took over China, even though their royal family is Manchu, they appointed a Ming Imperial descendant as a Marquis and kept this hereditary title for the Ming dynasty imperial family descendants. They also kept the same Duke Yansheng title for Confucius descendants.

In fact even when the Mongols invaded China and establish the Yuan dynasty, they did not try to exterminate the Song Imperial family. Zhao Mengfu was a Song descendant and painted during the Yuan dynasty and the Yuan did not try to kill off the many other collateral branches of the Song imperial family. Only the main line directly descended from the last emperors died during the conquest.

If the Qing were "evil" and intended on destroying China they would murder every noble family of China and not grant titles to the Ming imperial family, Confucius's lineage or continue to promote Confucianism.

Sparing the preceding royal family after overthrowing them was common in China. If the King and his sons were killed then the collateral branches (patrilineal cousins) would be granted titles and allowed to live.

@Ahiska is it common in other civilizations to spare the royal family after overthrowing them? Or more common to exterminate them?

I think you misunderstood. I like Qing dynasty and I am commented favorably about Qing. I have no resentment against nomads and I wrote favorably about Tang, Qing which are mix Han and nomads.

A lot of Han Chinese commented unfavorably about Vietnamese. I commented them favorably. I commented Thai, Korean and Japan favorably.

The only tribe I have a little negative opinion is high caste Indian.

I have wrote in PDF that Qing emperor is the best in entire Chinese history.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

Every freaking China-related thread somehow got turned into Vietnam whining about SC Sea dispute? gee. Do we even have mods?

Also the above lengthy posts about Fujian relation with Vietnam are so misinformed. Ask Fujian people living in Fujian, whether they think they have any connection with Vietnam, you who have been living in SE Asia for generations certainly feel close to SE Asians. Humans are societal animals anyway and history and blood affinity will be forgotten if not passed down either through education or through parents.

The fact that you feel closer to Vietnamese than to Shanghai-nese proves my point. Fujian is much much closer geographically to Shanghai. If we want to bring up history from 2500 years ago, Shanghai area was also part of Yue Kingdom, after the fall of Yue Kingdom, many fled to Minyue Kingdom in Fujian. Vietnam is so remote that it didn't even come to picture in China's history till Qin sent army to station in Guangdong area, the Nanyue Kingdom. Vietnam is south of Yue, not even part of any Yue kingdoms in China's history.

Oh I am from Zhejiang, the heart of Yue Kingdom, do I feel close to Vietnam? Heck no.

Anyway, I am derailing this thread. Mods really should rein in.

I think its more than what you have mentioned. The appearance of Vietnamese is much closer to Southern Chinese than most aware. And pockets of Malay tribes can look entirely like Fujian Chinese. A lot of Thai look closer to my tribe than Shanghai or Beijing.

Many Chinese never been Vietnam. And also as I put it 1979 war has more wrong on China side.

The above is a Dayak Malay in Sarawak. Look how she look like S Chinese.

 

[Wholegrain]

I think you misunderstood. I like Qing dynasty and I am commented favorably about Qing. I have no resentment against nomads and I wrote favorably about Tang, Qing which are mix Han and nomads.

A lot of Han Chinese commented unfavorably about Vietnamese. I commented them favorably. I commented Thai, Korean and Japan favorably.

The only tribe I have a little negative opinion is high caste Indian.

I have wrote in PDA that Qing emperor is the best in entire Chinese history.

As I have mentioned, Vietnam independence is not a bad thing. A independence Vietnam is invigorated and she took over all the Indianize states in SE Asia and Sinicized them. Do you want a India in next to Guangzhou?

As a SE Asian who always interact with Indians, I can assure they are extremely difficult to work with and extremely difficult to reach a deal with them.

Your views on Indianized peoples in southeast asia are incorrect. India has no natural political or ethnic links to southeast asian indianized peoples. The Indianized peoples just received Indian influence in culture, script, language (sanskrit loanwords) and religion. They are racially and ethnically different from Indians and their languages are not indo aryan or dravidian. India was never able to militarily project its power in the region.

Champa, Sulu, Malacca and Brunei were allies of the Ming dynasty. They were first Indianized then Islamicized. Vietnam then invaded Champa and massacred the Cham. There are less than 200,000 Cham in Vietnam today. Some fled to Cambodia and others fled to China where they became Utsuls in Hainan. Vietnam also took the Mekong Delta from Cambodia.

Thailand, Cambodia and Laos are all Indianized states. But they don't have any "natural" affinity for India or feel close to Indians.

I think its more than what you have mentioned. The appearance of Vietnamese is much closer to Southern Chinese than most aware. And pockets of Malay tribes can look entirely like Fujian Chinese. A lot of Thai look closer to my tribe than Shanghai or Beijing.

Many Chinese never been Vietnam. And also as I put it 1979 war has more wrong on China side.

The above is a Dayak Malay in Sarawak. Look how she look like S Chinese.

Alot of Miao and Yao minority people look like me. And?