China confirms export of eight submarines to Pakistan

[wiseone2]

Yes, India's P-8 can track any sub in the world.

P-8I might not be good in the open ocean
It is pretty good in the coastal waters

 

[Falcon26]

The Cinese Sterling Engine AIP is of the latest technologies, and China is also working on Fuel Cell AIP, so by the time these subs are ready, we might see both technologies incorporated in them, say the S-26 with Sterling engine and S-30 with Fuel cells..

The S-30s are the Qing class, right? What evidence exists Pakistan is procuring those rather than the S-20s?

 

[Areesh]

The S-30s are the Qing class, right? What evidence exists Pakistan is procuring those rather than the S-20s?

There was some news piece that last 2 of the 8 subs would belong to some different class.

 

[Penguin]

P-8I might not be good in the open ocean
It is pretty good in the coastal waters

Thats besides the point

 

[wiseone2]

Thats besides the point

it does matter

 

[Star Expedition]

believe me: what you need is power, not fashion weapons.

 

[khanasifm]

Only thing confirmed is 8 subs, make/model, config, weapons etc are just speculations at this time only thing confirmed by PN is it will have AIP and (by other not PN) will have second strike capability.

 

[TheDarkKnight]

The S-30s are the Qing class, right? What evidence exists Pakistan is procuring those rather than the S-20s?

No evidence exists for any type actually ... not qing, not even s20.

 

[Hassan Guy]

Terrible deal

 

[araz]

Terrible deal

Elaborate or get a negative rating. You are not supposed to have a two worded post. Why do you think it is a terrible deal without knowing what is on the cards. If the cost of 5billion is true then e cluding infrastructure for which you could exclude 1 billion it is 500 million per sub. Have you thought of why it is costing so much. Four of the 8 will be built in house! What technological transfer will take place? Are you aware of what is on the cards.
If the answet is yes then go ahead and explain to us why you think it is a bad deal. If not, either delete your post or get a negative rating.
How is that for a challange.
A

 

[Hassan Guy]

Elaborate or get a negative rating. You are not supposed to have a two worded post. Why do you think it is a terrible deal without knowing what is on the cards. If the cost of 5billion is true then e cluding infrastructure for which you could exclude 1 billion it is 500 million per sub. Have you thought of why it is costing so much. Four of the 8 will be built in house! What technological transfer will take place? Are you aware of what is on the cards.
If the answet is yes then go ahead and explain to us why you think it is a bad deal. If not, either delete your post or get a negative rating.
How is that for a challange.
A

5 Billion - 8 Chinese subs - 12 years, Too long and costly
Would have been better if we had produced our own submarines with Chinese and Turkish assistance
Or
Buy 4 from China and 4 from Germany, Spain or Sweden - Then we would get 8 at the same time

 

[Wolf]

5 Billion - 8 Chinese subs - 12 years, Too long and costly
Would have been better if we had produced our own submarines with Chinese and Turkish assistance
Or
Buy 4 from China and 4 from Germany, Spain or Sweden - Then we would get 8 at the same time

Exactly. We should have these 8 submarines maximum by by 2022 getting one at least every year with in house production capacity for further manufacturing.

 

[araz]

5 Billion - 8 Chinese subs - 12 years, Too long and costly
Would have been better if we had produced our own submarines with Chinese and Turkish assistance
Or
Buy 4 from China and 4 from Germany, Spain or Sweden - Then we would get 8 at the same time

OK. At least we have an answer. And the beginnings of a discussion.
Indegenous design is easier said than done. If you started from scratch you are looking at 2 decades at least and at the end of it you will have something of the likes of 90B which will be obsolete. Your outlay in research and development would be a couple of billions.
You will need to get a specialized steel plant which will set you back 2- 4 billions. Then no one will give you steel for making a sub so you will have to do your own research. A billion or two and a decade later you are ready to go if you are lucky.
Alternatively ally yourself with a friend and go look around every nook and corner to develop your specification and see how they build it. And then take over the process to do so locally. 5 billion and 12 yrs does not sound so bad if you look at the fact that they will set up the whole infrastructure for you to do the job. So training and infrastructure set up.
Now 12 yrs has been answered to some extent. Do you remember the DSI on JFTs. Do you remember when they came in when they were not even part of the original spec. If you have forgotten then ley me tell you. With the 4th plane. Why?.?? Because we saw something that might work better and changed the specs. Try that with any other provider and you will probably land out of their yard with a very sore bum( you know what I mean).
There is therefore no reason to assume that the design will not incorporate newer technology that comes to hand. And at the end of the day you will be manufacturing it. This is why it will take you time to build your own subs and this is one of the reasons the price is slightly higher.
The last thing you have not considered is what is involved in the deal. What are the specs of the boats and what will their capabilities be. I would not pooh pooh the idea till you know that.
As to the number perhaps that was the number to keep your friends happy. The fact that the requirement was increased from6 to 8 should point to the fact that PN seems very happy with the deal.
I think it is wrong to misjudge experts when you dont know the specs and the nitty gritty of the deal. I dont think these would just be ordinary boats. They bring to the front your 3rd arm of the triad of Nuclear deterrance.
A Navy man once told me it takes a good 3 to 5 yrs to be comfortable with a boat and get procedures streamlined. This is why people stick with one provider when it comes to ships and subs . This is why you dont hop from Germany to France to USA when shopping for ships or subs except for make shift arrangements like the OHPs. The future of PN lies in indegenization but it wont happen overnight and it will not happen withput someone else's help.
A

 

[Hassan Guy]

OK. At least we have an answer. And the beginnings of a discussion.
Indegenous design is easier said than done. If you started from scratch you are looking at 2 decades at least and at the end of it you will have something of the likes of 90B which will be obsolete. Your outlay in research and development would be a couple of billions. You will need to get a specialized steel plant which will set you back 2- 4 billions. Then no one will give you steel for making a sub so you will have to do your own research. A billion or two and a decade later you are ready to go if you are lucky.
Alternatively ally yourself with a friend and go loom afound every nook and corner to develop your specification and see how they build it. And then take over the process to do so locally. 5 billion and 12 yrs does not sound so bad if you look at the fact that they will set up the whole infrastructure for you to do the job. So training and infrastructure set up.
Now 12 yrs has been answered to some extent. Do you remember the DSI on JFTs. Do you remember when they came in when they were not even part of the original spec. If you have forgotten then ley me tell you. With the 4th plane. Why?.?? Because we saw something that might work better and changed the specs. Try that with any other provider and you will probably land out of their yard with a very sore bum( you know what I mean). There is therefore no reason to assume that the design will not incorporate newer technology that comes to hand. And at the end of the day you will be manufacturing it. This is why it will take you time to build your own subs and this is one of the reasons the price is slightly higher.
The last thing you have not considered is what is involved in the deal. What are the specs of the boats and what will their capabilities be. I would not pooh pooh the idea till you know that.
As to the number perhaps that was the number to keep your friends happy. The fact that the requirement was increased from6 to 8 should point to the fact that PN seems very happy with the deal.
I think it is wrong to misjudge experts when you dont know the specs and the nitty gritty of the deal. I dont think these would just be ordinary boats. They bring to the front your 3rd arm of the triad of Nuclear deterrance.
Anavy man once told me it takes a good e to 5 yrs to be comfortable with a boat and get procedures streamlined. This is why people stick with one provider when it comes to ships and subs . This is why you dont hop from Germany to France to USA when shopping for ships or subs except for make shift arrangements like the OHPs. The future of PN lies in indegenization but it wont happen overnight and it will not happen withput someone else's help.
A

Submarines have been around for a VERY long time - I don't think it would be very hard for a semi-industrialized country to produce the Hull and the main structure.

Remember North Korea and Iran build their own Submarines - North Koreas can launch SLBM's too.

AND we could have gotten assistance and sourced complicated components from China and Turkey.

Unless some of the submarines in the deal are like the qing class and can launch SLBM's then It won't be that bad, but if all of these are just S-20's that launch cruise missiles then its worst defence deal we have ever gotten.

 

[araz]

Submarines have been around for a VERY long time - I don't think it would be very hard for a semi-industrialized country to produce the Hull and the main structure.

Remember North Korea and Iran build their own Submarines - North Koreas can launch SLBM's too.

AND we could have gotten assistance and sourced complicated components from China and Turkey.

Unless some of the submarines in the deal are like the qing class and can launch SLBM's then It won't be that bad, but if all of these are just S-20's that launch cruise missiles then its worst defence deal we have ever gotten.

As I have alluded earlier the current steel manufacturing base is incapable to produce the parts that you are mentioning. There is the opportunity to work with the Chinese to gain the knowledge which in itself is a bonus.
As I keep repeating nd you keep ignoring the specs are unknown to you and to me. So at this juncture any speculation is useless. If I remember correctly there was a lot more that I wrote on the subject. Any views on those things?
A