China cannot rely on foreign technology for national security purposes

[Yingluck]

It is inevitable that China lags in semi-con. Such upstream technology needs extreme precision optical equipment normally inaccessible to China companies.

TSMC can go out of business if ASML boycott her.

Also TSMC has access to western technology from the very beginning.

 

[jhungary]

But you said China is vulnerable because she cant make SIM card, or dependent on SIM card technology, and ETSI can ban China from using SIM card.

I still havent seen plausible argument from you why so ..

I didn't said that, my post is reply from you as you say this

China critical dependency on US is only on chip! like those from intel and QUALCOMM.

Chinese critical dependence is NOT on Chip only, SIM card too, whether or not will ETSI ban China is another issue, the question is COULD not WOULD ETSI ban China, the answer is it could, because it is NOT a Chinese agency or organisation.

If you want to ask whether or not ETSI WOULD ban Chinese market, open another thread, again, let me remind you on the topic.

CHINA CANNOT RELY ON FOREIGN TECHNOLOGY and not WOULD FOREIGN TECHNILOGY BAN CHINESE COMPANY.

So who has the largest smarphone market share if not China?

you tell me, I am not the one that said 49% and I am not the one that post that article, go to that article and see who posted it?

On what way I changed the topic? You came here with claim that china dependency on foreign sim card tech is critical.

I am still sticking on the topic. The foreign technology meant here is technology under foreign nation's control, not the one which under international institution.

And still you are wrong when you say China is vulnerable due to dependency on foreign SIM card technology.

Look at the topic again.

It's

China cannot rely on foreign technology for national security purposes

Not would ETSI or other foreign company ban China, if you want to discuss that, open another thread title Would foreign company able to ban China. here on this topic, we talk about Can china move away from foreign technology, SIM IS a foreign technology

Hence you change the topic of the discussion to suit your point.

So you give up your rebuttal on my argument that "China critical dependency on US is only on chip" is wrong? in your post #27? This was how you start arguing with me

No, because you has not talk about whether China have another system setup like TS11.11 and TS50.011, you just talk about ETSI won't ban China as it was a consensus.

You start with requesting me to address the issue about fraud with your friend gambit while saying I am the real fraud. Post #27.

I said you always accuse people is a fraud, and then I said usually people who accuse other is a fraud himself is a fraud, I never said you are a fraud, if you like to 對號入座, that's your business.

You keep saying that my bad rating and your good rating as evidence that you are trustworthy while I am not, while the evidence show your argument barely got thanks including from your silent reader

Yes it is, as I said, I got people from all the different country quote me and ask me stuff, when is the last time people quote you?

LOL. They dont give you bad rating and dont give me good rating, so would you stop abusing rating as evidence of your good behavior and argument?

How I abuse my rating when I cannot rate any? LOL

I did not rate you bad or force people to leave me good, so exactly how I am abusing my rating?

As I said, 3 bad rating was coming from your mate "DAVOS" that appear whenever you got cornered, while the audience doesnt have privilege to give me good rating and you bad rating. But they keep giving my argument "thanks" while yours barely get none while you claim you have many silent readers on your side

There are Chinese MOD and Chinese TT, in fact, there are more Chinese TT and Chinese mod than American Mod (which have 0) and American TT. How's that they don't give you good rating have anything to do with me? Ask them why you don't deserve your "good" rating, don't ask me. I did not leave you any.

And I do get many reader on my side, again, when is the last time people form Outside Chinese forum ask you any advice? I have about 10 in the last 2 week, how many you have?

 

[antonius123]

I didn't said that, my post is reply from you as you say this



Chinese critical dependence is NOT on Chip only, SIM card too, whether or not will ETSI ban China is another issue, the question is COULD not WOULD ETSI ban China, the answer is it could, because it is NOT a Chinese agency or organisation.

If you want to ask whether or not ETSI WOULD ban Chinese market, open another thread, again, let me remind you on the topic.

CHINA CANNOT RELY ON FOREIGN TECHNOLOGY and not WOULD FOREIGN TECHNILOGY BAN CHINESE COMPANY.

But you haven't proved why China dependence on foreign SIM card technology is "critical"!

I've shown you that China can produce simcard herself, so banning sim card on china wont shake china.

And if you can't answer why ETSI want to ban China then your argument become more invalid.

Even claiming ETSI can ban China is also groundless, as it will be against ETSI principle of openness and common consensus.

you tell me, I am not the one that said 49% and I am not the one that post that article, go to that article and see who posted it?

LOL. Your argument become funny and funny.
Why diverting from the topic with 49% issue? You failed to sustain your argument that dependency on SIM card tech which is foreign is critical for china

Look at the topic again.

It's

China cannot rely on foreign technology for national security purposes

Not would ETSI or other foreign company ban China, if you want to discuss that, open another thread title Would foreign company able to ban China. here on this topic, we talk about Can china move away from foreign technology, SIM IS a foreign technology

Hence you change the topic of the discussion to suit your point.

OK, means you give up with your rebuttal about critical impact from dependency on foreign SIM card? LOL

Remember you've made claim:
- SIM card is technology other than processor Chip that China is dependent and critical.
- China cant produce her own simcard
- ETSI can ban China from using simcard technology
- ETSI can change definition without involving China.

All of these claims of yours have been debunked ..

No, because you has not talk about whether China have another system setup like TS11.11 and TS50.011, you just talk about ETSI won't ban China as it was a consensus.

Because as I said whether China has or not another system like TS11.11 is NOT IMPORTANT!
Because China is member of ETSI and ETSI can't ban China. Got it?

I said you always accuse people is a fraud, and then I said usually people who accuse other is a fraud himself is a fraud, I never said you are a fraud, if you like to 對號入座, that's your business.

Hellow .. it you and your friend gambit's habit to accuse me fraud. I am just proving that it is him and you that is the real fraudster

Yes it is, as I said, I got people from all the different country quote me and ask me stuff, when is the last time people quote you?

Doesnt mean you have quality. You can prove your quality if you can sustain your argument reasonably with fact.

How I abuse my rating when I cannot rate any? LOL

I did not rate you bad or force people to leave me good, so exactly how I am abusing my rating?

Like I said: by using rating to push your argument instead of sound argument and evidence.

There are Chinese MOD and Chinese TT, in fact, there are more Chinese TT and Chinese mod than American Mod (which have 0) and American TT. How's that they don't give you good rating have anything to do with me? Ask them why you don't deserve your "good" rating, don't ask me. I did not leave you any.

And I do get many reader on my side, again, when is the last time people form Outside Chinese forum ask you any advice? I have about 10 in the last 2 week, how many you have?

You keep accusing Chinese Mod not neutral, why? because they dont want give me bad rating? LOL

LOL. You are so delusional .. it is you with your bias who said I dont deserve good rating while you deserve...

And the many readers on your side did not thank you? what a pity

They come to ask you because they hope you can give them knowledge simply judging from your title, but your title is deceiving - proved not in line with quality you are demonstrating here. Many has realized that you were just giving nonsense.

While you still circling around with abusing rating as your evidence. LOL

 

[jhungary]

But you haven't proved why China dependence on foreign SIM card technology is "critical"!

I've shown you that China can produce simcard herself, so banning sim card on china wont shake china.

And if you can't answer why ETSI want to ban China then your argument become more invalid.

Even claiming ETSI can ban China is also groundless, as it will be against ETSI principle of openness and common consensus.

Proof?

2 Questions

1.) DID CHINESE MOBILE PHONE USES SIM AND SIM ONLY?
2.) ARE SIM A FOREIGN TECHNOLOGY AND CAN BE SANCTIONED?

You tell me?​

Now, whether or not EU Sanction China over SIM is another Topic, topic here, again, for the forth time is that China cannot rely on foreign technology, not whether or not any particular nation would sanction China.

LOL. Your argument become funny and funny.
Why diverting from the topic with 49% issue? You failed to sustain your argument that dependency on SIM card tech which is foreign is critical for china

2 Questions

1.) DID CHINESE MOBILE PHONE USES SIM AND SIM ONLY?
2.) ARE SIM A FOREIGN TECHNOLOGY AND CAN BE SANCTIONED?

You tell me?

And I did not say it's 49%, and I did not post that article, again, go back and look at who post that article?​

OK, means you give up with your rebuttal about critical impact from dependency on foreign SIM card? LOL

Remember you've made claim:
- SIM card is technology other than processor Chip that China is dependent and critical.
- China cant produce her own simcard
- ETSI can ban China from using simcard technology
- ETSI can change definition without involving China.

All of these claims of yours have been debunked ..

Yes, I have give up on your argument, because you argument is not on topic.

- SIM card is technology other than processor Chip that China is dependent and critical.

If Chinese phone network only operate on SIM card, and SIM card CAN be sanctioned by EU, then yes, SIM Card is critical and China is dependent on the technology

- China cant produce her own simcard

I never made that claim

- ETSI can ban China from using simcard technology

Yes, it CAN, Is ESTI Chinese operation, is EU under China control? If no, then Of course ETSI can ban China, like how they ban Russia and slot them into OBSERVER status.

- ETSI can change definition without involving China.

Why not? Is China controlling ETSI or EU? If not, why they cannot do that?

Because as I said whether China has or not another system like TS11.11 is NOT IMPORTANT!
Because China is member of ETSI and ETSI can't ban China. Got it?

So in other word China does not have a TS11.11 and TS51.011 system, good to know

And were China control ETSI is it? So ETSI Cannot ban China? ETSI can even ban US if they want, in fact, talk have been made since the NSA Prism scandal, what make you think China is outside ETSI scope for banning?

If you want to talk about whether or not ETSI is likely to ban China, open another topic, what's important here is your answer that China did not have a TS11.11 and TS51.011 system in place.

Hellow .. it you and your friend gambit's habit to accuse me fraud. I am just proving that it is him and you that is the real fraudster

I don't really care, as I did not call you a fraud, as I said, you want to 對號入座 is your business, I did not call you a fraud, so why accuse me of insulting you?

Doesnt mean you have quality. You can prove your quality if you can sustain your argument reasonably with fact.

Maybe, but no one leaving you positive rating suggest you are in fact posting without quality.

Like I said: by using rating to push your argument instead of sound argument and evidence.

Again, I AM NOT the one to leave you a negative rating, unless you can prove that I am Davo or He and I have prior communication and I instruct him to do that, you are talking out of your rear end.

As I said, YOU CALLED HIM and then Insult me, what do you expect him to do, give you a hug?

And did you 4 negative got strike off yet? Pretty sure the moderator have a look at it, and if not, what does that mean? You are so undeserved the rating deserved to leave it mark? LOL

You keep accusing Chinese Mod not neutral, why? because they dont want give me bad rating? LOL

LOL. You are so delusional .. it is you with your bias who said I dont deserve good rating while you deserve...

And the many readers on your side did not thank you? what a pity

They come to ask you because they hope you can give them knowledge simply judging from your title, but your title is deceiving - proved not in line with quality you are demonstrating here. Many has realized that you were just giving nonsense.

While you still circling around with abusing rating as your evidence. LOL

First of all, I get MORE thank you than you, I have 9577 you have 1688, I have 5 times the thanks you got.

Second of all, I did not accuse Chinese mod anything, read the post again, I said why they did not leave me bad rating and leave you a good rating then, the thing is they don't do it mean something, I did not say what that something is.

You accuse me of abusing my rating, and you now accuse me of something I did not say at all? Now who is spilling nonsense lol Show me some proof I abused my rating when I did not rate you, or you are a liar,liar pumkinator

Again, I have 12 people I don't know asking me advice on post I have not participated, how many people asked you? Even the Chinese here don't quote you, that said your "standard" lol

 

[TaiShang]

Xi stresses improving innovation capabilities for key, core technologies

CGTN
2018-07-13


Chinese President Xi Jinping on Friday called for reforms in the country’s technology sector, saying China must improve its core technology innovation to offer a strong technological guarantee for the country's development.

Xi made the remarks at a meeting of the Central Committee for Financial and Economic Affairs.

Key and core technologies bear major significance for promoting China's high-quality economic development and maintaining national security, Xi, also head of the Central Committee for Financial and Economic Affairs, said at the meeting.

China must improve innovation capabilities for key and core technologies and keep a firm hold on the initiative in the development of science and technology to offer a strong technological guarantee for China's development, Xi pointed out.

During the meeting, the committee also called for streamlined management procedures in key scientific and technological projects, more incentives for innovation and more autonomy in decision making for research institutes.

China will continue to deepen opening-up in its science and technology sector and promote international exchanges for its universities and research institutions, said the committee.

As I said, 3 bad rating was coming from your mate "DAVOS" that appear whenever you got cornered, while the audience doesnt have privilege to give me good rating and you bad rating. But they keep giving my argument "thanks" while yours barely get none while you claim you have many silent readers on your side

That's indeed a very fishy situation .

Now you have pointed it out (as well as other members on this board), it will be more difficult to intimidate strong counter arguments by way of negative rating threats.

Now it is knowledge vs. knowledge. Empirical fact vs. empirical fact, in which, you seem to have already gained a strong upper hand in the previous debate.

I guess the reason for such strong reaction of intimidation attempt by giving out extreme number of negative ratings on phony grounds (you have not used any stronger language than your opponents have so far) is that you are inflicting damage to and undermining a potemkin village - a facade of knowledge and seniority.

You know there was Martian, as well (I have never read him using bad language other than "you are clueless"), and they have eventually silenced him with some 40+ negative ratings.

In that sense, the damage you have inflicted is real and will be remembered.

For the sake of truth, it is a job well done!

 

[gambit]

Doesnt matter. It proves China can still have simcard if european vendor ban.

Who the hell is talking about sim card, but you?

We are talking about the entirety of China's semiconductor industry that is dependent on foreign technology, notably US.

That is very basic knowledge.

Basic to me, but not to you because you never had any 'aviation studies' in the first place. You LIED about yourself, fraud.

Next question...

Regarding phase change memory (PCM). It implies materials that can be affected at the molecular level to retain data. But what must be done to the materials before it can be data injected? There is a common word for this process. What is it?

The reason I asked you these questions is not because I expect answers from you, but to illustrate to the readers out there what kind of person you are: Ignorant and Arrogant.

 

[gambit]

https://www.techinasia.com/zte-saga-illustrates-crisis-looming-chinas-semiconductor-industry

Wang Dongsheng, a professor at Tsinghua University’s Department of Computer Science and Technology, attributed ZTE’s woes to inadequate “core technology” and weak innovation. He compared China’s semiconductor sector to the country’s football team, which is often mocked for its incompetence.

It is not just ZTE but practically every major Chinese semicon company is weak in that same 'core technology' foundation.

China accounts for more than 50 percent of the global demand for chips. However, only eight percent of the chips used in the country are made there, according to Chinese newspaper Yicai.

As Chinese companies seeking to gain market hold and sustain a customer base, at home and overseas, these companies increases their dependency on foreign technology sources.

Foundries cannot be sources of innovations as every time a foundry fab signed contract, a part of the fab essentially belongs to the paying client. Every piece of equipment, every worker from production operators to engineers, are temporarily employees of the paying client. Foundry fabs are consumer level producers, not R/D. Hardware in foundry fabs are well known for their relaxed standards in terms of precision, maintenance, and operations. The relaxed standards came not because the owners are careless but because the hardware needs to be flexible because each line of product have unique processing recipes that varies from client to client.

Even something as innocuous as the temperature rating of a hose is important because one recipe at a piece of hardware may call for something as lethal as hydrogen flouride and the next recipe from the next client at the same hardware may call for simple DI water. Either the hose must be able to handle both or must be able to quickly changed out. The heavier duty hose will cost more and will require increased cleaning prior to recipe changes. Changing out the hose require the machineries to be spaced further apart for maintenance to access which cost time and floor space. Foundries are not the place to innovate new ideas.

 

[antonius123]

Proof?

2 Questions

1.) DID CHINESE MOBILE PHONE USES SIM AND SIM ONLY?
2.) ARE SIM A FOREIGN TECHNOLOGY AND CAN BE SANCTIONED?

You tell me?​

1. No
2. Cant

Now, whether or not EU Sanction China over SIM is another Topic, topic here, again, for the forth time is that China cannot rely on foreign technology, not whether or not any particular nation would sanction China.

Then why you brought SIM card issue here?

2 Questions

1.) DID CHINESE MOBILE PHONE USES SIM AND SIM ONLY?
2.) ARE SIM A FOREIGN TECHNOLOGY AND CAN BE SANCTIONED?

You tell me?

And I did not say it's 49%, and I did not post that article, again, go back and look at who post that article?​

LOL. As usual you post garbage again

You failed to sustain your claim that ETSI can ban China on using SIM Card, and that ETSI can change definition without China approval.

You loose your ground ..

Yes, I have give up on your argument, because you argument is not on topic.

- SIM card is technology other than processor Chip that China is dependent and critical.

If Chinese phone network only operate on SIM card, and SIM card CAN be sanctioned by EU, then yes, SIM Card is critical and China is dependent on the technology

- China cant produce her own simcard

But the fact EU cant ban China on using SIM card, nor can't change definition without involving its member China.

Your claim that china cant produce her own card has been debunked.

I never made that claim

- ETSI can ban China from using simcard technology

Yes, it CAN, Is ESTI Chinese operation, is EU under China control? If no, then Of course ETSI can ban China, like how they ban Russia and slot them into OBSERVER status.

- ETSI can change definition without involving China.

Why not? Is China controlling ETSI or EU? If not, why they cannot do that?

But that wont happen, because there wont be any reason to ban china from using sim card. That is the simple logic

Furthermore the definitions belong to its member, not belong to Europe alone; except ETSI will remove China from it's membership - and that wont happen also because no reason and the cost is big.

So in other word China does not have a TS11.11 and TS51.011 system, good to know

And were China control ETSI is it? So ETSI Cannot ban China? ETSI can even ban US if they want, in fact, talk have been made since the NSA Prism scandal, what make you think China is outside ETSI scope for banning?

If you want to talk about whether or not ETSI is likely to ban China, open another topic, what's important here is your answer that China did not have a TS11.11 and TS51.011 system in place.

Why should China control ETSI?
Yes, ETSI practically cannot ban China.

Give me evidence that ETSI was considering to ban US? even if so still ETSI wont ban US in using the definition, it is a violation against free trade and ETSI's own rule & principle.

I don't really care, as I did not call you a fraud, as I said, you want to 對號入座 is your business, I did not call you a fraud, so why accuse me of insulting you?

Your denial is too blatant. Look again on your post #27.

Maybe, but no one leaving you positive rating suggest you are in fact posting without quality.

I received many thanks from audience, and you barely not. That show quality in my argument while yours is not

Again, I AM NOT the one to leave you a negative rating, unless you can prove that I am Davo or He and I have prior communication and I instruct him to do that, you are talking out of your rear end.

As I said, YOU CALLED HIM and then Insult me, what do you expect him to do, give you a hug?

And did you 4 negative got strike off yet? Pretty sure the moderator have a look at it, and if not, what does that mean? You are so undeserved the rating deserved to leave it mark? LOL

LOL. You are circling around with logical fallacy, which is the typical of you

As I said most of my bad rating were from your friend DAVOS as he appeared every time you get cornered in the meantime your argument almost get no thanks, that prove that you dont deserve get positive rating.

In fact many members has questioning the relevance of your rating

First of all, I get MORE thank you than you, I have 9577 you have 1688, I have 5 times the thanks you got.

Second of all, I did not accuse Chinese mod anything, read the post again, I said why they did not leave me bad rating and leave you a good rating then, the thing is they don't do it mean something, I did not say what that something is.

You accuse me of abusing my rating, and you now accuse me of something I did not say at all? Now who is spilling nonsense lol Show me some proof I abused my rating when I did not rate you, or you are a liar,liar pumkinator

First of all: you get thanks whenever nobody argue with you, so the thanks you get is not for the quality of your argument but for your willingness to sharing though from copy paste from other articles, or from those whose arse you lick (sorry I am using your own language) while I get thanks due to my arguments.


You abuse your rating by using it to shut down me and others, as simple as that.

You said Chinese mod are supposed to give good rating on me because they are chinese, indirectly you are saying that Chinese mod is supposed to be bias.

Again, I have 12 people I don't know asking me advice on post I have not participated, how many people asked you? Even the Chinese here don't quote you, that said your "standard" lol

Me too .... so whats your point? Can that prove your quality? LOL No! People is seeing your argument and the quality, not your bragging on you rating and self proclaim

The chinese and other here often quote me, and say that my argument is making sense while yours are not! Even you can see that in pages of this thread, including the last one -> 2 post above this

So sorry .. you are too delusional to see facts.

 

[gambit]

So you give up your rebuttal on my argument that "China critical dependency on US is only on chip" is wrong?

You are wrong. China depends on foreign technology not just on importing computer chips but ALSO on manufacturing and testing equipment vital to making chips.

 

[antonius123]

You are wrong. China depends on foreign technology not just on importing computer chips but ALSO on manufacturing and testing equipment vital to making chips.

But not critical.

As I said China still depend on TSMC, while her own SMIC market share in china is only 6%, if US ban on the tools & equipment it wont damage China.

 

[hoangsa74]

both gambit and jhungary clearly have the profound hands on working experience/knowledge on many subjects. what you two possess is the detail know-how and i'm sure you two have more classified data/info that you can't divulge on a forum like this.

 

[gambit]

But not critical.

As I said China still depend on TSMC, while her own SMIC market share in china is only 6%, if US ban on the tools & equipment it wont damage China.

You are wrong, as usual. China have no major indigenous semicon toolmaker. So in order to be competitive even at home, Chinese semicon companies will buy foreign tools, and buy more and more to compete against each other. That dependency is critical.

Here is why...

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1091189.shtml

Apple Inc was in talks with YMTC to buy NAND Flash chips, some media outlets reported during Spring Festival.

"If this move turns into a real deal, it will definitely reshape the semiconductor sector, as Chinese manufacturers may choose domestic chipmakers over foreign ones if their technologies are recognized by the US tech giant," he said.

Let us take just Apple for now.

Before Apple approves any supplier into its development chain, Apple will send representatives to the supplier's facilities. Apple will literally inspect everything, from the anti-static smocks to the quality of the chemicals to the brands of the semicon tools. If there is one item that is not on Apple's secret list of approved companies, the supplier is disqualified. So for Yangtze Memory Technologies Co (YMTC) to have earned Apple's purchase approval, it means YMTC met Apple's secret list of critical items. And you better believe it that there is no Chinese semicon toolmaker in that list.

I will preempt you...

Do not confuse a manufacturer with a toolmaker. They are not the same. A home builder is not a toolmaker like Snap-On or Caterpillar or Huyndai. YMTC is not a toolmaker. Advantest is a toolmaker.

Learn anything? Of course you have.

 

[hoangsa74]

if the u.s suppliers and her allies decide not to sell china those semiconductor machineries, the entire Chinese semiconductor industry will go out of business in a heart beat

 

[antonius123]

Who the hell is talking about sim card, but you?

We are talking about the entirety of China's semiconductor industry that is dependent on foreign technology, notably US.

No. It is your friend gary that bragging sim card here ... and as usual finally he can't sustain his claims.

Basic to me, but not to you because you never had any 'aviation studies' in the first place. You LIED about yourself, fraud.

Worthless ... self proclaim without proven competency = fraud.

Your bogus is not only aviation experience claim, but also semicon industry experience claim.

Next question...

Regarding phase change memory (PCM). It implies materials that can be affected at the molecular level to retain data. But what must be done to the materials before it can be data injected? There is a common word for this process. What is it?

The reason I asked you these questions is not because I expect answers from you, but to illustrate to the readers out there what kind of person you are: Ignorant and Arrogant.

LOL. Focus on the topic instead bring garbage ... copy paste can't prove your qualification

You are wrong, as usual. China have no major indigenous semicon toolmaker. So in order to be competitive even at home, Chinese semicon companies will buy foreign tools, and buy more and more to compete against each other. That dependency is critical.

Here is why...

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1091189.shtml

Let us take just Apple for now.

Before Apple approves any supplier into its development chain, Apple will send representatives to the supplier's facilities. Apple will literally inspect everything, from the anti-static smocks to the quality of the chemicals to the brands of the semicon tools. If there is one item that is not on Apple's secret list of approved companies, the supplier is disqualified. So for Yangtze Memory Technologies Co (YMTC) to have earned Apple's purchase approval, it means YMTC met Apple's secret list of critical items. And you better believe it that there is no Chinese semicon toolmaker in that list.

I will preempt you...

Do not confuse a manufacturer with a toolmaker. They are not the same. A home builder is not a toolmaker like Snap-On or Caterpillar or Huyndai. YMTC is not a toolmaker. Advantest is a toolmaker.

Wrong!

First of all, China has semicon tools & equipment makers even they are threat to Korean ones.
Here is evidence:
http://www.businesskorea.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=19872

Second, as I said: china is not depending on her fab yet as I've told you SMIC the largest fab only take 6% china market share, so even if US ban selling equipment and assumed SMIC collapse, china electronics maker wont be impacted much because they depend on TSMC etc.

Learn anything? Of course you have.

LOL. You seem so thirsty with people's acknowledge

if the u.s suppliers and her allies decide not to sell china those semiconductor machineries, the entire Chinese semiconductor industry will go out of business in a heart beat

They wont!

Because the ban will benefit China's own domestic semicon equipment and tool makers to grow and becoming major competitors in the future, while the ban impacting a little to Chinese electronics industry and economy as whole.

http://www.businesskorea.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=19872

 

[gambit]

Here is an example of the kind of power Apple wields in the semicon market...

https://www.investopedia.com/articl...0-major-companies-tied-apple-supply-chain.asp

Apple is known to maintain one of the best managed supply-chains in the world. Using its large-size and global presence, it is able to demand high quality and impose stricter terms on its suppliers. For example, when taptic engines from a Chinese supplier proved unreliable, Apple swiftly procured them from the Japanese firm Nidec Corp (mentioned earlier). Apple has hundreds of such suppliers willing to abide by the terms Apple sets forth.

Apple is called a 'Tier One' client.

Take a standard 120 gb 300 mm NAND wafer, for example. Each die is theoretically rated at 128 gb capacity. But there are manufacturing flaws so each die is built with redundant cells. During functionality testing, if a cell is found defective, the test program will deactivate the defective cell and build a new pathway to a backup cell in the redundant array. When this occurs, the die is classified as a 'repaired' die.

Sometimes, a die has enough manufacturing defects that all redundant cells are needed to create that 128 gb capacity. Sometimes, a die has so many repairs that even when all redundant cells are used, the die still cannot make that 128 gb capacity. In this case, the die is re-rated and will sell as 64 gb capacity. Sometimes, a die will be re-rated as even lower to 32 gb.

Non-repaired dies are called 'prime' dies. Prime dies are usually at the %50 center area of a wafer. Apple will buy ONLY prime dies and will pay top money for them. The more prime dies per wafer a NAND manufacturer proved to produce, the more secured the contracts to Apple. So just because a wafer have %90 yield, that does not mean can be an Apple candidate. Of that %90 yield, a generous estimate of %50 of that %90 would be prime dies.

https://www.waferworld.com/wafer-manufacturing-wafer-grades/

Prime Grade Wafers

The highest grade of silicon wafers are prime wafers. Often referred to as "device-quality" wafers, prime wafers are extremely high-quality and polished. Due to their quality, this grade of wafer is generally more expensive than test or reclaimed grade wafers. Prime wafers are used for various applications such as photolithography, particle monitors, and other high tech projects.

Only prime wafers can produce prime dies.

http://www.usbtalk.net/2009/09/nand-flash-chip-grades-explained/

Grade A

Also known as tier 1 flash chips are the best chips available. Grade A chips have the manufacturers name and serial number laser etched on the the flash chip. Samsung and Hynix are the largest producers of Grade A flash. These chips will have a consistently low rate of errors, be much faster than other grades, and last you much longer. Vendors offering these chips will more often than not provide a lifetime warranty on the product.

A NAND manufacturer will not risk an existing Apple contract by buying from unknown suppliers. If he is faced with an unknown Chinese supplier with lower prices vs a Western supplier with established reputation and with higher prices, he will buy from the Western supplier. Whether the NAND maker is Chinese or JPNese or Korean, he will not risk losing his Apple contract and will cut out the Chinese bidder. Whether the product is a wafer or an vapor deposition oven or a robotic arm, the NAND maker will not risk buying from an unknown brand. The robotic arm can fail at the worst moment and ruin a boat filled with finished wafers worth hundreds of thousands on the open market. Or worse, the robotic arm can fail catastrophically that it can hurt or even kill a worker.

How many thinks the J-20 is flying with Chinese made semicon devices made entirely by Chinese tools, eh?

China's semicon industry is deeply entrenched with non-Chinese sources and tools.