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n Pakistan, the military is the first one to reach the public. It’s not military’s job to make roads, put medical camps, send in forces for relief efforts etc but it becomes military job since civil defence is weak where as military can say no citing duty on national security agenda as foremost and cannot spare soldiers thus burdening federal paramilitary forces to do all tasks internally.
Correct.
President Pervez Musharraf was the most anti-India leader of Pakistan after Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto. It's just not me but I have seen others also said that (well, outside of this forum!). But after the folly of Kargil in 1999, he realized that even the so-called 'Chenab Formula' was not attainable by Pakistan. So the war-hawk Musharraf became a dove of peace and hence the Musharraf-Manmohan dialog over Kashmir. The most shocking part in that dialog was that Musharraf, and implicitly the Pakistani 'establishment', agreed with the LoC=IB with some face saving compromises. That was never ever considered in Pakistan but that was always an option in India despite Indian grandstanding.
A new world is being shaped in front of us and being shaped rapidly. Eurasia is the center of human activities. Major Eurasian wars always shaped the course of human history. So don't be too surprised if surprises come up tomorrow.
You have an exaggerated fear of an exhausted Pakistan.
Regarding the thread - without a doubt it was Pakistan Military which made the crrect choice of getting close to China and that is an excellent choice.In case of Pakistan, it's the chicken vs egg equation!! From Day One, Pakistan was constituted to be a 'Security State' and what can be the force to hold a vey fledgling Security State but the military?? The current state is that without the Pakistani military, there is no viable 'State of Pakistan' left. General Hamid Gul used to point out that without the Pakistani military, Pakistan would be yet another weak State like most in the Middle East. Minus that, if someone thinks some 'Young Turks' or some 'revolutionaries' are going to miraculously steer Pakistan in the right direction then they are misguided because there are no such people. There is an old Urdu poem's stanza which I am forgetting right now. Went something like 'I am now because I was constituted to be this way'.
On a more promising outlook: PTI is a promising force in Pakistan. Youthful and ambitious. It needs to be harnessed so that it is an 'institution' instead of a cult. Leadership has to be raised wisely. Look around Imran Khan and tell me who are the alternate in case Imran takes a bullet to his head? Who are around him but mostly the same old. And then tell me that they will form a stable Pakistan compared with the 'establishment'. And tell me honestly!
That is true for anywhere. The difference is Military touts like you then try and justify loot , plunder , coups , land grabbing and killing just because they showed up during floods. All militaries do that. Last year British army came out during floods but do they do what I just mentioned above?Army soldier shows up at time of need be it war or peace or calamity or medical or engineering.
The 1965 war was a turning point for Pakistan as that’s when Pakistan military leadership connected close to China as it faced embargo from USA. Where as, it was after end of Musharraf’s tenure that Pakistan looked towards China for majority of defence needs while the craving for F-16 diminished.
One war to another, military was instrumental in bringing China close to Pakistan due to defence needs.
I just see his typical propoganda faujeet type posts and it makes my blood boil so I end up ignoring itThat is true for anywhere. The difference is Military touts like you then try and justify loot , plunder , coups , land grabbing and killing just because they showed up during floods. All militaries do that. Last year British army came out during floods but do they do what I just mentioned above?
Thats when the downfall started. Ayub declared Fatima Jinnah raw agent and threw her out. Should Fatima Jinnah also have choosen to be wise like IK? It seems to be the common denominator in all this is one entity.
Equation is simple. Do we want corrupt land grabbers and criminals in uniform or not? The answer is no.In case of Pakistan, it's the chicken vs egg equation!! From Day One, Pakistan was constituted to be a 'Security State' and what can be the force to hold a vey fledgling Security State but the military?? The current state is that without the Pakistani military, there is no viable 'State of Pakistan' left. General Hamid Gul used to point out that without the Pakistani military, Pakistan would be yet another weak State like most in the Middle East. Minus that, if someone thinks some 'Young Turks' or some 'revolutionaries' are going to miraculously steer Pakistan in the right direction then they are misguided because there are no such people. There is an old Urdu poem's stanza which I am forgetting right now. Went something like 'I am now because I was constituted to be this way'.
On a more promising outlook: PTI is a promising force in Pakistan. Youthful and ambitious. It needs to be harnessed so that it is an 'institution' instead of a cult. Leadership has to be raised wisely. Look around Imran Khan and tell me who are the alternate in case Imran takes a bullet to his head? Who are around him but mostly the same old. And then tell me that they will form a stable Pakistan compared with the 'establishment'. And tell me honestly!
I just see his typical propoganda faujeet type posts and it makes my blood boil so I end up ignoring it
Thanks for keeping up and answering his propoganda
The 1965 war was a turning point for Pakistan as that’s when Pakistan military leadership connected close to China as it faced embargo from USA. Where as, it was after end of Musharraf’s tenure that Pakistan looked towards China for majority of defence needs while the craving for F-16 diminished.
One war to another, military was instrumental in bringing China close to Pakistan due to defence needs.
Personally, I believe, even if we are arch enemies to each other, a good majority of people from both sides do not really want to see each other getting killed...Even if Pakistan gets into a very difficult situation in the future, the majority of Indians like me do not want to see each other fighting and killing....Yes, it may happen that we will always have hyper-nationalist people like me who would like to fight with you guys in the internet and media, but it does not mean the majority of Indian people will celebrate the killing of Pakistanis and i also strongly believe same sentiment exists within Pakistan too..
PTI is just IK, rest of the Lotas will return to their parties the day IK gets a bullet in the head.
IK has misguided the nation, he has created another form of extremism in Pakistan. He has thrown away the respect and rationality from minds of the youth and filled their hearts with hatred and negativity under the guise of standing up to corruption. IK has misled the youth into believing him as Demi-God and to deny everything else.
Pakistan is already mired by the curse of extremism and IK has found an opportunity in extremism to strengthen his own standing. The youth has the right to question everything, if they question other things, they should question IK also, but he has blinded their ability to question him, like the Pied piper story. IK's aim is to get back in power even at the sake of destroying Pakistan, destroying military of Pakistan, destroying institutions of Pakistan - tell me should Pakistan accept such a leader ? NO way.
I think the alternative view is important to understand the opposition they may have some valid points along with many silly ones. Also people tend to be a product of the society they grow up in, live in and privileges they get to enjoy so when that is challenged they go on the guard to protect it at all cost.I just see his typical propoganda faujeet type posts and it makes my blood boil so I end up ignoring it
Thanks for keeping up and answering his propoganda
It's not stable situation, and if you go against the will of the people instability will remain. I doubt China or anyone else will want to continue investing under these conditions.There are four major political forces in Pakistan, the Bhutto family representing the landlords and powerful classes, the Sharif family of the Punjab business class, the military, and the IK Justice Movement Party. IK is the weakest, and the only hope is to get a bargaining chip to negotiate an alliance with the military. Currently the most tense is the Bhutto family. If ik is in power, they will be marginalized. IK inciting populism is the process of taking chips. The sword hurts the enemy and oneself. The military's final choice is crucial. IK is betting on his life, I think his chance of success is only 10% because he is anti-corruption. The Sharif family chose to join forces with the military, and there is a high probability that they will outshine others in the future. In the future, more political struggles will come from within the family. I don't know if this stable situation is good or bad.
It saddens me to read your post. Sounds like another PTI fanboi who repeats the 'establishment' part ad nauseum because the Aristotle of Pakistan Mr. Imran Khan, the born again Muslim, started saying that barely a year ago. Have some originality of thought! A philanthropist and a financially clean person doesn't make one a great leader necessarily.
For your info, the same 'Establishment' had Pakistan to be a very prosperous country well into Pakistan's history into the 1980s when compared with the neighbors. The same 'Establishment' made Pakistan's defense, and, yes, with a lot of American help, to be so strong that a fledgling nation born in 1947 with potentials like the modern Afghanistan has been able to face off a far stronger enemy till this day.
It is fairly unique!The perks and the privileges the Pakistan military enjoys are not unique to Pakistan. In America too the Military Industrial Complex enjoys immense privileges to the detriment of ordinary Americans and I think there are other countries where some form of uniformed or civilian oligarchy enjoys great privileges. BUT countries don't get destroyed from them.
A country gets destroyed when there are internal divisions, when there are 'revolutions' when the revolutionaries are the same old--as in case of PTI, a country gets destroyed when all its institutions start to fight against each other, which is happening in Pakistan now, thanks in no small measure to a power hungry Imran Khan who was assured to win the next elections anyway.
Gravely damaging the Pakistani 'establishment' without a viable alternative would put Pakistan in grave danger akin to what happened in some Middle Eastern countries in the name of 'revolutions' and Indians are eagerly waiting for the moment to arrive. Do you think Imran Khan is that smart and do you think there will be a PTI if, God forbids, a bullet takes him out??? Oh you fools!!!
Ah, pity!But then I am probably playing the proverbial flute to the buffaloes here. There are none more blind than those who refuse to see!
Pakistan willingly signed up for a cause against Soviets!The 1965 war was a turning point for Pakistan as that’s when Pakistan military leadership connected close to China as it faced embargo from USA. Where as, it was after end of Musharraf’s tenure that Pakistan looked towards China for majority of defence needs while the craving for F-16 diminished.
One war to another, military was instrumental in bringing China close to Pakistan due to defence needs.
New Recruit
Up shit creek without a paddleLook around Imran Khan and tell me who are the alternate in case Imran takes a bullet to his head? Who are around him but mostly the same old. And then tell me that they will form a stable Pakistan compared with the 'establishment'. And tell me honestly!
Ah, pity!
Insted keep yourself entertained with that proverbial flute... makes more sense.
Up shit creek without a paddle