China and Israel: similar or different? Jerusalem Post

[CardSharp]

Henceforth, please do not compare Israeli atrocities and Chinese genocides. Else, you would be opening the whole pandora box (The Black Book of Communism) on yourselves.

Please do, I want to see what this pandora's box of your contains.

 

[TextMiner]

You can talk about Tiananmen square (6-4 incident), and highlight the phrase "People's Republic of China".

We can talk about the tens of thousands of innocent Kashmiri civilians that have been slaughtered by Indian security forces, and highlight the phrase "world's biggest democracy".

So why don't we try to stick on topic, instead of getting into a pissing contest?

Very True ; This would derail the very purpose of the Thread. But again let us recall the derailer of this thread and his statement.

And its really commonplace that Bargaining becomes the obvious similarity between Chinese and Israelis.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Does that include the Byzantine genocide and expulsion of Jews from the Land of Israel in 628-9 BC? Your ignorance of history is telling you that Palestinians are the "local" populace who are being displaced by foreign Jews. In reality, Israelis have every right to reclaim the land of its ancestors from 2.6 millenia ago. While their militaristic methodology trails the United States, what the West Asians did to the Jews was inhuman in comparison.

The israeli jews tht live in modern day israeli are not even real jews but european jews who had been living in europe since centuries and about reclaiming land let the native americans reclaim back canada and Usa?Even their extermination by ur ancestory is a thing of tommorow (recent past).

Bombing hospitals and killing 1500 people including women and children indisriminatly is such a brave feet!

Let the natives use the same technique to reclaim there land using F-16s,JDAMS,Phosphorous and blocking food,cement and fuel?not to foget house arresting and bombing u back to stone ages ?

Ur pathetic!

Look at the war crimes commited by israHell.

 

[中国万岁-ProsperThroughCo-]

"Why is it that Chinese members here think that they are superior because of their economy while ignoring plights of poor and one's personal freedom?"

Extremely few Chinese think they are superior due to racial differences or so. However, we do believe that China has been able to improve the living standards of the people more than India.

We know that the average Chinese has a better life than the average Indian. Let me tell you something, personal freedom means NOTHING if you can't cover your basic needs. Compare it to Maslow's pyramide of human needs.

Also, you cannot compare China today with China 10, 20 years ago. Nevertheless, I am certain that personal freedom has improved a lot. People can demonstrate as long as they are not violent and is revolting against the government.

There are of course corruption among some officials, e.g do not pay the compensation to people who have been relocated etc. These stories are the ones that make it to Western media of course. But you never hear about the many good ones, like my father's uncle who received 2m RMB in compensation when a company bought his land for redevelopment.

As for censorship, sorry to say, but this is the best for the people right now. When you come to a country with this huge population, one "rumour" or hearsay can cause huge disaster. I wonder how the Chinese will react if Chinese media revealed all the China bashing articles from Indian media? As for free press, many newspapers exaggerates the news and is meant to sell, it is really easy to invent news.

You know what they say in the military? "Trust is good, control is better". As China is poor now, it is more important to have a secure, hard handed government in the beginning. Compare it to the Maslow pyramide.

If you want to make a country richer, it is easier to let the skillful ones get rich first, then gradually let the poor ones share the cake afterwards. This is called capitalism. Trying to make everybody richer is not efficient and gives fewer incentives for the skillful ones.

I am sorry that we will have to demolish some houses against people's will to make way for the high speed railway, highway or skyscraper. NIMBYism that is being exploited by some greedy individuals will not be tolerated in China.

Besides, China has always been a collectivistic culture, placing the people first, then the individual. As for corruption/networking/guanxi, this is also been part of Chinese culture, but not limited to China. India is also infamous for its corruption. Even in democratic Taiwan, corruption runs deep, so you can't blame the Communist government.

All that said, no country is perfect. We Chinese acknowledge that, and we try our utmost to improve our country. Why do you think China is trading natural resources "everywhere"? Why is China building infrastructure and power plants like crazy? To improve our country of course.

Sadly, we cannot have both ways. We cannot have a enormous manufacturing base without pollution. We cannot build infrastructure without destroying somebody's house. This is called economy - the study of allocating limited resources to their best usage. And sometimes, we build huge things that does not immediately make economical sense, but how can you measure the feeling of national pride in money? E.g the space program or Beijing Olympics (although the Olympics was definitely worth the money). Main point is - to improve the masses, sometimes the individual cannot be satisfied.

Of course, since China is so big, we will always have crooks that will give a bad image of China. That is why China has some of the world's strictest penalties, to try to prevent such crimes.

Sometimes, China do things that other countries protest against. One of the first thing I learnt in sergeant school was that "a leader is not a person that is always popular". And I think that is totally true with China. China should not bow to hostile countries. We should care for those who are friendly to us, be stubborn against those who are against us.

I am hugely proud of the progress that has been made in Mainland China. China is definitely determinant to become a super power, a renewed Middle Kingdom. In 50 years, we will look back now on issues on freedom like the U.S. looks back on the racism during the 1960's. We are showing the world that you don't have to be a Western style democracy to excel.

 

[CardSharp]

Well said. It hard to be philosophical when your children are starving.

 

[TextMiner]

Please do, I want to see what this pandora's box of your contains.

As i did mention to Chinese-Dragon, mentioning anything about the Great Leap Forward or the Forced Labor camps or any of Mao Tse-Tung's policies will result in derailing this thread. If u need, i can post you some of the links offline.

 

[CardSharp]

As i did mention to Chinese-Dragon, mentioning anything about the Great Leap Forward or the Forced Labor camps or any of Mao Tse-Tung's policies will result in derailing this thread. If u need, i can post you some of the links offline.

Oh please educate me about Chinese history. This is all new to me.

 

[Brotherhood]

Extremely few Chinese think they are superior due to racial differences or so. However, we do believe that China has been able to improve the living standards of the people more than India.

We know that the average Chinese has a better life than the average Indian. Let me tell you something, personal freedom means NOTHING if you can't cover your basic needs. Compare it to Maslow's pyramide of human needs.

Also, you cannot compare China today with China 10, 20 years ago. Nevertheless, I am certain that personal freedom has improved a lot. People can demonstrate as long as they are not violent and is revolting against the government.

There are of course corruption among some officials, e.g do not pay the compensation to people who have been relocated etc. These stories are the ones that make it to Western media of course. But you never hear about the many good ones, like my father's uncle who received 2m RMB in compensation when a company bought his land for redevelopment.

As for censorship, sorry to say, but this is the best for the people right now. When you come to a country with this huge population, one "rumour" or hearsay can cause huge disaster. I wonder how the Chinese will react if Chinese media revealed all the China bashing articles from Indian media? As for free press, many newspapers exaggerates the news and is meant to sell, it is really easy to invent news.

You know what they say in the military? "Trust is good, control is better". As China is poor now, it is more important to have a secure, hard handed government in the beginning. Compare it to the Maslow pyramide.

If you want to make a country richer, it is easier to let the skillful ones get rich first, then gradually let the poor ones share the cake afterwards. This is called capitalism. Trying to make everybody richer is not efficient and gives fewer incentives for the skillful ones.

I am sorry that we will have to demolish some houses against people's will to make way for the high speed railway, highway or skyscraper. NIMBYism that is being exploited by some greedy individuals will not be tolerated in China.

Besides, China has always been a collectivistic culture, placing the people first, then the individual. As for corruption/networking/guanxi, this is also been part of Chinese culture, but not limited to China. India is also infamous for its corruption. Even in democratic Taiwan, corruption runs deep, so you can't blame the Communist government.

All that said, no country is perfect. We Chinese acknowledge that, and we try our utmost to improve our country. Why do you think China is trading natural resources "everywhere"? Why is China building infrastructure and power plants like crazy? To improve our country of course.

Sadly, we cannot have both ways. We cannot have a enormous manufacturing base without pollution. We cannot build infrastructure without destroying somebody's house. This is called economy - the study of allocating limited resources to their best usage. And sometimes, we build huge things that does not immediately make economical sense, but how can you measure the feeling of national pride in money? E.g the space program or Beijing Olympics (although the Olympics was definitely worth the money). Main point is - to improve the masses, sometimes the individual cannot be satisfied.

Of course, since China is so big, we will always have crooks that will give a bad image of China. That is why China has some of the world's strictest penalties, to try to prevent such crimes.

Sometimes, China do things that other countries protest against. One of the first thing I learnt in sergeant school was that "a leader is not a person that is always popular". And I think that is totally true with China. China should not bow to hostile countries. We should care for those who are friendly to us, be stubborn against those who are against us.

I am hugely proud of the progress that has been made in Mainland China. China is definitely determinant to become a super power, a renewed Middle Kingdom. In 50 years, we will look back now on issues on freedom like the U.S. looks back on the racism during the 1960's. We are showing the world that you don't have to be a Western style democracy to excel.

Great post bro, could't have say it any better.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

As i did mention to Chinese-Dragon, mentioning anything about the Great Leap Forward or the Forced Labor camps or any of Mao Tse-Tung's policies will result in derailing this thread. If u need, i can post you some of the links offline.

That will open the Pandora's box for India too, considering that the vast majority of people who died under Mao's failed policies, died because of starvation.

Starvation, which is of course an even bigger issue for India, even in the present day. You want to talk about starving children?

Indian members are already engaged in a pissing contest with Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, etc.

If you want to get into a pissing contest with Chinese members too, you'll just be surrounding yourself with enemies.

So maybe you'll want to stick to the damn thread?

 

[TextMiner]

However, we do believe that China has been able to improve the living standards of the people more than India.

We know that the average Chinese has a better life than the average Indian. Let me tell you something, personal freedom means NOTHING if you can't cover your basic needs. Compare it to Maslow's pyramide of human needs.

My only critic of your post is your use of Maslow's Hierachy of Needs.

Maslow's Hierarchy is rigid enough to box the Biological needs (Food, Air, Water) along with the Physiological needs of ***, excretion and locomotion. So does this mean that if i build a 100 million toilets today and sufficiently Feed and Clothe Indians, but i take away their personal freedom, India can suddenly stand shoulder-to-shoulder with China ? This is pure hogwash of a theory. The Maslow theory is from an individualistic perspective ; A Nation of a Billion people cannot adhere to a Single model of Physiological needs first and then give pedestals to Safety and Love/Belonging.

It does not take into account which way is the way of the majority. For this a more flexible System like a Spiral Dynamics system

would augur well.

I also wish to further dwell why China is making Goliath-like Strides while the David in India is still caught up, but again doing so would diminish the the very agenda of the Thread (as i have been doing ).

 

[TextMiner]

Now you shameless troll, get the f... out of my face before i entertain you with tones of India's dirty secrets for you to enjoy, what say?

Look, i have no intention to beat the dead horse over and over again, but India washes its dirty linen in public (metaphorically and figuratively too), hence you can rummage through and quote all you can about India's failures, no secret exists in India (else it wont be a secret, would it now ?).

Secondly, all i was saying with deference to Chinese-dragon is, please ask your fellow members to get off the high-horse of morality when talking about the Israelis. I respect his general views on India and Indians and henceforth, i am vanishing into thin air from this Thread.

 

[true_indian]

I really hope you understand a better economy is the only effective way of alleviating poverty.

and personal freedom? I'll just give you a quote. "Indians are free — free to be poor" (Karan Thapar)

India's China Envy : NPR

I really hope India disprove you all. Democracy could achieve the same thing too. You think giving up personal freedom is the only way to prosperity. I pity your ignorance. India is not stagnated, it is still the second fastest growing major economy in the world. It is expected to exceed China's growth by as early as 2013.

Give us another 10 years, we'll be where you are. Don't rub your understanding of economics on to us. If you can't achieve prosperity without human right violations, and freedom, doesn't mean we can't too.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

So does this mean that if i build a 100 million toilets today and sufficiently Feed and Clothe Indians, but i take away their personal freedom, India can suddenly stand shoulder-to-shoulder with China ? This is pure hogwash of a theory.

You think giving up personal freedom is the only way to prosperity. I pity your ignorance.

What personal freedoms do I NOT have?

Why don't you tell me?

 

[below_freezing]

we are talking about israel, not india.

as far as i see, israel and china have little in common. when i ride in taxi (rarely do anyhow, too expensive. use bus) there is no bargaining anyways. the price is visible and written on the door and is not negotiable. the only negotiation is for private taxi, but those are unsafe.

 

[true_indian]

Well said. It hard to be philosophical when your children are starving.

Why don't you come to India and ask around if they want democracy or an authoritarian development. I am pretty sure you would get a fitting reply. Please don't be arrogant about your development, remember just 20 years ago, you were just like us. 20 years in the history of a civilization is a minuscule of time.