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China : A True Friend Indeed

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if china having a good relationship with others country is for self iterest only , tell me what do we gain by continuing supporting countries like north korea, north vietnam during the 60s , zimbawe , iran and to a certain extend many country in the middle east, to the annoyance of usa which is our biggest trading partner.

North Korea is security buffer against US troops next door
Vietnam is same thing
Iran and ME is oil and China really has no problems with Islam like Zionist controlled US
Zimbabwe, who knows?? They must have minerals.
 
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India is very welcome to join China and Pakistan for business related interests. I don't think Pakistan and China will mind taking India onboard so long they are sincerely with their investments. No use getting upset and childish with the special Sino-Pak relationship.
 
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As long as your enemy's friendship with whatever country doesn't harm your country, why should you be worried with your enemy's friendship with whomever at all? As long as China isn't harming India by being friends with Pakistan, why do Indians feel so insecure? And as far as Indians aren't using any other country to harm Pakistan, why would Pakistanis feel insecure? I don't know much about Pak-China friendship but I do know that Chinese are great investors and businessmen, same are Indians who have invested amazingly in Afghanistan. Instead of worrying about their enemies' moves, why not strengthening ties with friends so much that enemies become helpless? Better for your health and confidence. :)

LOL. Are you comparing the Pakistan-India flat land border where most troops are stationed to the terrain of Pak-Afghan poorly demarcated porous border where some even dont know where Afghanistan ends and Pakistan begins.

If the Indians were in neighbouring Iran it would be a different story, but India is in Afghanistan and taking advantage of the porous Afghan-Pak border to cause trouble in Pakistan. That is the reason why General Zia ul Haq helped fight the Soviets, we can not afford to have the enemy on our western border with Afghanistan.

And its almost impossible to fence the entire Pak-Afghan border like the Pak-India border or the Pak-Iran border. That is the reason why whenever Afghanistan is unstable or in a state of war, it also affects Pakistan.
 
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India may be doing a great deal of good work in your country and you should be thankful although from a Pakistani perspective they are taking full advantage of the porous border by supplying criminals/agents who cross the border to join ranks with extremist groups to carry out acts of terror in our land but god willing we will work alongside Afghans to combat this problem and i hope with time we will be able to build a fruitful and trustworthy relationship with one another.
This is the point brother, even the Afghan army (which needs ALOT of work) and foreign forces are in danger on Afghan-Pak borders, how do you think an Indian will make it there? There's no proof of Indians across the borders as Indians are found mainly in Kabul, Mazar and Herat. They are not even in Jalalabad which is way less dangerous than our southern parts. Nonetheless if Pakistan is convinced India IS in Afghan tribal areas and causing trouble then by no mean, and WITH solid evidences, Pakistan has it's right to take action against it.

And by the way the only history Afghanistan shares with India is through present day Pakistan. Even your Ahmad Shah Durrani was born in Multan, in Punjab province of Pakistan. His empire included all of present day Afghanistan and all of present day Pakistan and only some parts of north-west India (India Occupied Kashmir and India's region of Punjab) that shares historical and cultural links with present day Pakistan. Most of India and most Indians have nothing in common with Afghanistan, Afghanistan's history, or Afghanistan's people whatsoever.
Afghanistan got as much links with Pakistan as Muslims of India. And whether we got less or more in common I don't know, but I do know that Tajiks, Uzbeks and Hazaras in particular hold huge amount of respect for India because of the constructions Indian provided in north of the country over the years. Pashtuns don't interact as much with Indians since you will hardly find an Indian in south of the country. And about Indian deals and all, as I said, an Indian knows better so I won't speak about something I am not sure of.

pakistan is 'building' more in afghanistan and providing it will wheat and rice then india can ever build or invest, and its all just humanitarian, what india is 'building' is facilitating not afghanis but its own workers, why india is pushing indians in afghanistan, even your own kerzai has admittied to the real deal which india is pushing in there..
After US, India is second biggest aid worker in Afghanistan. No offence but if Pakistan has helped Afghanistan then we have also seen ALOT of political tension from Pak side, while it's a fact that India hasn't armed or funded Afghans to fight whatever war in their country. Their neutralism regarding ethnics is one of their plus points which is why no Afghan ethnic got any problem with them.

but guess what if pakistan finds any bi mischief from afghanistan through india than afghanis will be bombed as compared to india, so you should better be cautioned about what sort of gay relationship you are developing with it...
That's why I said, if you have SOLID evidences then present it to the world. If your government can let a murderer go for a few dollars then it can do anything for money, this is your government's task. See that there's absolutely no difference in greed between both our governments?

If the Indians were in neighbouring Iran it would be a different story, but India is in Afghanistan and taking advantage of the porous Afghan-Pak border to cause trouble in Pakistan. That is the reason why General Zia ul Haq helped fight the Soviets, we can not afford to have the enemy on our western border with Afghanistan.
Now I ask you, have you got any evidence of India interfering with Pakistan through Afghanistan BEFORE the wars? I am hoping for an international source though. And every person with a bit knowledge about history would know that Afghan-Russian war was a huge mistake which never should have happened, ever. Don't forget that Indians and Russians both were asked to send troops to southern Afghanistan, both could have easily agreed and cause trouble in Pakistan by blaming anyone at all.

And its almost impossible to fence the entire Pak-Afghan border like the Pak-India border or the Pak-Iran border. That is the reason why whenever Afghanistan is unstable or in a state of war, it also affects Pakistan.
And don't you agree that Pakistan wouldn't have suffered as much if your government had eased it's interferences, or atleast take GOOD advantage of it? Iran also interfered, but it knew it's limits. Through Tajikistan and Uzbekistan Russia also tried to interfere, but at a point it stopped. But Pak's interference was unstoppable, and during Taliban regime it was best period of Afghan-Pak relationship. Had Pak government handled Taliban a bit more wisely, I guarantee you Afghanistan would have been very neutral regarding Pakistan. It's a shame your government interfered till the extend Pakistan got troubled, and it's a shame our government still isn't competent enough to decide it's own destiny rather than becoming a joke in everyone's eyes.


And we can argue all we want, it comes back to that Pakistan-China will keep justifying their friendship, whether it suits an Indian or not. And Indo-Afghan friendship will also be justified, whether it suits a Pakistani or not. So let's keep it just that, agreeing to disagree.
 
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I guarantee you Afghanistan would have been very neutral regarding Pakistan.

Remind me who opposed Pakistan's membersip with the UN ? Wasn't it Afghanistan ?

Even today many individuals in Afghanistan resent FATA / KP joining Pakistan. Who can guarantee that this resentment will no longer be a cause of animosity between us, however small ?
 
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^ Oh, so Mujahideen and Taliban were 'revenge' from Pak government's side? It's one thing to argue your point of view, it's another to arm people in order to secure your point of view. Learn the difference and be realistic. The relationship between Afghanistan-Pakistan as INDIVIDUALS was nothing like today, NOTHING like today.
 
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Check the history of the groups you mentioned and you'll find more names than just Pakistan. There was a vacuum and they gained power. As far as arms are concerned, we don't make the Stingers, someone else does.
Were we a transit route ? Yes. Were we working alone ? Definitely not.

Truth is, nobody minds an Afghanistan that is neutral or pro-anyone, but many elements in Afghanistan are anti-Pakistan and more who are hiding there with the full knowledge of your precious Karzai. This is what we don't like.
Even today Afghanistan calls us "brothers" but never loses an opportunity to stab us in the back.

Your neutrality is not genuine my friend, if it is, then hand over the rebels and insurgents that are hiding there (the name Bugti is familiar to you, I hope).
 
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Check the history of the groups you mentioned and you'll find more names than just Pakistan. There was a vacuum and they gained power. As far as arms are concerned, we don't make the Stingers, someone else does.
Were we a transit route ? Yes. Were we working alone ? Definitely not.

Truth is, nobody minds an Afghanistan that is neutral or pro-anyone, but many elements in Afghanistan are anti-Pakistan and more who are hiding there with the full knowledge of your precious Karzai. This is what we don't like.
Even today Afghanistan calls us "brothers" but never loses an opportunity to stab us in the back.

Your neutrality is not genuine my friend, if it is, then hand over the rebels and insurgents that are hiding there (the name Bugti is familiar to you, I hope).

Dont worry brother. Our ISI will never allow Indo-Afghan relations to be like Pak-China relations. Just be patient.

As for those Afghans who kiss the feets of Indians and stab Pakistanis in the back, they can just cross the Wagah Border and seek refuge in India instead of seeking refuge in our Pak Sarzameen.
 
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@ Watani
Pakistan have no problems if India & Afghanistan become friends, but you should understand that India is investing in Afghanistan to keep pressure on Pakistan from East & West both borders & already the world knows about Indian game in Afghanistan against Pakistan.


& remember because India is doing this all mess from within Afghanistan so definitely Pakistan will reply back there with full fury & might, it would be better for Afghanistan to throw enemies of Pakistan within its soil.
 
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Check the history of the groups you mentioned and you'll find more names than just Pakistan. There was a vacuum and they gained power. As far as arms are concerned, we don't make the Stingers, someone else does. Were we a transit route ? Yes. Were we working alone ? Definitely not.
If Pak government wasn't the only one involved in this mess then it doesn't mean it should be ignored completely. US government was the supplier, Pak government was their right hand, and some Afghans were the sold outs who fought a meaningless and destructive war in the name of 'Mujahideen'.

Truth is, nobody minds an Afghanistan that is neutral or pro-anyone, but many elements in Afghanistan are anti-Pakistan and more who are hiding there with the full knowledge of your precious Karzai.
You could very well explain what was so pro-Afghanistan about anti-Daud Khan camps in Peshawer, or the oppression the Pak supported Taliban brought upon minorities? Taliban were infact only 'leaders' who were as anti-India as one could get, any idea why? And Karzai? You actually are taking him seriously?

Even today Afghanistan calls us "brothers" but never loses an opportunity to stab us in the back.
Which 'stabbing in the back' are you talking about brother? The one where Pak government did by supporting Mujahideen in first place and ended supporting it to split into groups? The one where Pak government did by supporting their most friendly 'leaders' Taliban and then attack those very same Taliban when USA asked them to? Or the one where Pak government started to accuse the very same US who financially supported Pakistan for decades for causing trouble in Pakhtunkhwa when everything backfired?

Your neutrality is not genuine my friend, if it is, then hand over the rebels and insurgents that are hiding there (the name Bugti is familiar to you, I hope).
Mate, your government is handing OUT the terrorists/murderers/agents (whatever you want to call it) it catches, and you are worried about the insurgents which slipped out of Pakistan already? And as far as I know about Bugti, only Pakistani sources 'confirms' residency in Afghanistan.

Our ISI will never allow Indo-Afghan relations to be like Pak-China relations.
Forget about foreigners, your ISI should take care of the mess they caused in their own country first. And thanks for naming the main cause of this issue.

As for those Afghans who kiss the feets of Indians and stab Pakistanis in the back, they can just cross the Wagah Border and seek refuge in India instead of seeking refuge in our Pak Sarzameen.
How many Chinese feet did YOU have to kiss so far? Ask your government how much money they had to count in return for the number of Afghan refugees in Pakistan? I can't help it if those billions ended up being wasted fighting the insurgencies in Pakistan itself..........

you should understand that India is investing in Afghanistan to keep pressure on Pakistan from East & West both borders & already the world knows about Indian game in Afghanistan against Pakistan.
And how is building roads, building hospitals, building offices, etcetera going against Pakistan? India hasn't sent any army, nor will you find any Indian base near the Pak-Afghan borders. Had there been any, Taliban would have destroyed it very long time ago. Just like how they tried to break off all ties with India during their reign in Kabul.

India is doing this all mess from within Afghanistan so definitely Pakistan will reply back there with full fury & might, it would be better for Afghanistan to throw enemies of Pakistan within its soil.
And I have said this a gazillion times that Pak government can show their evidences against 'Indian insurgents' to India, show it to the US, or to the world in order to justify their actions against Indians. Who is stopping them, if their proves are indeed that solid? A reply can also be given by fencing/mining the border, not by sending armed kids.
 
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US government was the supplier... and some Afghans were the sold outs who fought a meaningless and destructive war...

I'm guessing you preferred Soviet puppets in Afghanistan. But no matter, we weren't going to let USSR attack us just to reach the Arabian Sea or the Indian Ocean.

Which 'stabbing in the back' are you talking about brother?... Or the one where Pak government started to accuse the very same US who financially supported Pakistan for decades for causing trouble in Pakhtunkhwa when everything backfired?

The one where we took in millions of refugees into Pakistan while your other neighbours had closed their doors. The one where the same refugees helped saturate our society with assault rifles and drugs. The one where the same refugees are refusing to back to their country even though a lot of them present a security risk by harbouring militants.

As for aid, my friend, it only results in misinformation and miscalculation. People today say Pakistan has been receiving $1.5 billion per year through the Kerry-Luger Bill. Yeah right, we've received a few millions so far yet the majority of people still consider the full amount paid.
Another fact: A lot of the money we receive is compensation for the losses we incurred months or even years ago as a direct result of supporting the WoT. Strangely, we are only reimbursed with pennies for every dollar we spend.


... India hasn't sent any army... Just like how they tried to break off all ties with India during their reign in Kabul.

They sure wanted to but the US did not consider it appropriate since Pakistan is crucial to this WoT.

... A reply can also be given by fencing/mining the border...

Sometimes I really miss our former President Musharraf. He suggested fencing and mining the Pak-Afghan border and sending the refugees back. But our friends across the border and in the US thought it was against Human Rights to mine the border for some reason. We should have done it anyways. It would have stopped a lot of those so-called cross-border terrorists. But someone out there doesn't want this to happen.
 
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They sure wanted to but the US did not consider it appropriate since Pakistan is crucial to this WoT.

Either you are misinformed or you are peddling disinformation. USA hoped that India would join the forces in Afghanistan and tried a number of times to make that happen. India has consistently refused to be part of the force, and has taken that decision in concurrence with the Afghans.

Since all major decisions have been taken with Afghanistan, India does not have a similarly fraught relationship that Pakistan has with Afghanistan.
 
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If Pak government wasn't the only one involved in this mess then it doesn't mean it should be ignored completely. US government was the supplier, Pak government was their right hand, and some Afghans were the sold outs who fought a meaningless and destructive war in the name of 'Mujahideen'.


You could very well explain what was so pro-Afghanistan about anti-Daud Khan camps in Peshawer, or the oppression the Pak supported Taliban brought upon minorities? Taliban were infact only 'leaders' who were as anti-India as one could get, any idea why? And Karzai? You actually are taking him seriously?


Which 'stabbing in the back' are you talking about brother? The one where Pak government did by supporting Mujahideen in first place and ended supporting it to split into groups? The one where Pak government did by supporting their most friendly 'leaders' Taliban and then attack those very same Taliban when USA asked them to? Or the one where Pak government started to accuse the very same US who financially supported Pakistan for decades for causing trouble in Pakhtunkhwa when everything backfired?


Mate, your government is handing OUT the terrorists/murderers/agents (whatever you want to call it) it catches, and you are worried about the insurgents which slipped out of Pakistan already? And as far as I know about Bugti, only Pakistani sources 'confirms' residency in Afghanistan.


Forget about foreigners, your ISI should take care of the mess they caused in their own country first. And thanks for naming the main cause of this issue.


How many Chinese feet did YOU have to kiss so far? Ask your government how much money they had to count in return for the number of Afghan refugees in Pakistan? I can't help it if those billions ended up being wasted fighting the insurgencies in Pakistan itself..........


And how is building roads, building hospitals, building offices, etcetera going against Pakistan? India hasn't sent any army, nor will you find any Indian base near the Pak-Afghan borders. Had there been any, Taliban would have destroyed it very long time ago. Just like how they tried to break off all ties with India during their reign in Kabul.


And I have said this a gazillion times that Pak government can show their evidences against 'Indian insurgents' to India, show it to the US, or to the world in order to justify their actions against Indians. Who is stopping them, if their proves are indeed that solid? A reply can also be given by fencing/mining the border, not by sending armed kids.

@Watani,
You have indeed tried hard to make your points in the discussion; though sadly, they will not be palatable to some.
Just like to add a few points related to your post above, in the underlined sections:

About the ISI and its role in creating some destructive armed forces; the ISI took a huge gamble and it is not going to work out (as is sometimes the case with a gamble) and some of its creations will turn out to be a cancer for Pakistan.

About Indian involvement in Afghanistan; the USA desperately wanted an Indian Military contribution to the forces. While India (after consultation with Afghans) was vehemently clear that there will be no military component to Indian activity in Afghanistan. Equally clearly (with consultation and discussion with Afghanistan) India had concluded that what really was required by the Afghan people was reconstruction. So India understood that there was a clear role to play in building infrastructure, the educational system etc. That is the only role that India can play in exercising "soft power". And which give a better payoff than any "hard power". In any case that was also easy to do since it was a continuation of what the Indo-Afghan relationship from the 1950s.

Last point about evidence; if even some scraps of some credible evidence was offered, the whole world would have instantly stood up and taken notice. But since nothing of that kind has happened, nobody has lent any credence to those claims.

As I said at the outset, you have tried to say something sensible; but are there many listeners................
 
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