Chengdu J-20's Fifth Prototype Unveiled.

[gambit]

I don't find a need to clarify to you,...

Then what are you doing here, if not to troll ?

There are pros and cons for each technology and how realistically systems are tested(both tactical and strategic capabilities) and I found from their views and my own analysis that many systems are not tested for operational conditions(for example no target drone in the market can simulate threat evasion maneuvers or deploy decoys with the timing a manned aircraft would do combat).

Then you have NOT done your homework.

In radar detection, a hit by a transmission is considered the same as a hit by a missile or bullet. The goal of creating a radar low observable body is to avoid detection by the most common radar designs. That is as realistic as any can get.

The same way "stealth"(I hate to use the word, as only amateurs,marketing goons and fan boys do that ) has so many considerations like aspect of the aircraft during maneuver,IR emissions,acoustic emissions,electronic emissions,wavelengths used,the processing used,operating environments,human skill,maintenance quality that usefully deploying it in combat is questionable. I believe so and I stand by it, don't agree???????? wait till combat occurs till then none of us are correct because combat is the biggest,nastiest teacher.

You are correct. I DO NOT agree. Right now, the US military, specifically the USAF, is the most experienced in combat in terms of radar avoidance. Do not tell me how 'biggest, nastiest teacher' is combat when your India is struggling in the same field you are criticizing US.

...a well designed repeater jammer can give the data link a run for its money,...

Like you stated that combat is the nastiest teacher. Let US know when there is such a jammer and whoever has one is willing to take US on -- in real combat.

 

[holysaturn]

Then what are you doing here, if not to troll ?


Then you have NOT done your homework.

In radar detection, a hit by a transmission is considered the same as a hit by a missile or bullet. The goal of creating a radar low observable body is to avoid detection by the most common radar designs. That is as realistic as any can get.


You are correct. I DO NOT agree. Right now, the US military, specifically the USAF, is the most experienced in combat in terms of radar avoidance. Do not tell me how 'biggest, nastiest teacher' is combat when your India is struggling in the same field you are criticizing US.


Like you stated that combat is the nastiest teacher. Let US know when there is such a jammer and whoever has one is willing to take US on -- in real combat.

Lol sir I do my homework everyday,I still think that radar avoidance is a lame investment.Just because I have different perspective doesn't mean I am wrong,your talk as if you are the authority on military aircraft design is ironical as the failure of some of US over hyped stuff in wars is evident,because you assume that combat is fought the way you want it ,like assuming that tactical nuclear war is the future and vietnam proved you wrong,and assuming that the adversary wont counter high altitude PGM bombing in Kosovo.
Avoidance by most common radar designs !!! lol again the F-35 is not going to operational at least until 2019 and may be in numbers only by 2025-30 if at all the USAF does not cap it as the F-22.Now considering China,Russia are coming up with VHF/UHF AESA(hell even India is building L band AESA which can detect LO designs)designs they can proliferate it much faster than NATO can produce the f-35,so by the time it is fully operational LO has already been compromised and you will have a plane which is kinematically ,maintenance wise a turkey.
India is not even struggling ,it is miserably screwing up its inventory but that doesn't mean I should talk about things what I consider shear USAF lunacy.

 

[Donatello]

Again we assume that the aggressor will resort to BVR attrition combat firing at high altitude at long range. What if the aggressor decides to stay really low in valleys,mountains and just pops(which has happened numerous times and ) up with GCI guiding him to the target, then the BVR edge is losts and suddenly the F-35 is facing mushrooms of well directed mig-21's and a lot of them the APG-81 can then f**k itself as the range of radar missiles at such altitudes is in visual range and it will be handicapped by poor kinematic performance,pilot with less hours and huge size.

This might be as blunt as it can be, but judging by your flags i can see why you have such a fetish for Mig21.
You need to realize that in order to counter the Migs, USAF or any airforce utilizing F-35 will have equally well 4th gen aircraft. USAF doesn't work with one asset alone, it is the entire air battle group. You have the airborne Sentry and Hawks so it doesn't really matter whether the APG81 is jammed or cluttered, F-35 will still have it's target and will still have the ability to launch a missile.

About valleys and mountains:
1- You better be a damn good pilot trying to shake a bogey of your butt in that topography or you'll be pancake in no time.
2- The same limitations that the F-35 will face will also be faced by the Mig21....MIG21 with it's antiquated kinematic and flying profile is not really known for its forgiveness....neither is the Mig29.
3-High speed, low altitude flying is extremely dangerous.........there is a higher probability that you'll crash yourself in a chase during bad weather/night than you will be able to shoot the aggressor.

F-35 is not for a one on one combat only, it is part of the bigger Air Dominance strategy.

 

[holysaturn]

This might be as blunt as it can be, but judging by your flags i can see why you have such a fetish for Mig21.
You need to realize that in order to counter the Migs, USAF or any airforce utilizing F-35 will have equally well 4th gen aircraft. USAF doesn't work with one asset alone, it is the entire air battle group. You have the airborne Sentry and Hawks so it doesn't really matter whether the APG81 is jammed or cluttered, F-35 will still have it's target and will still have the ability to launch a missile.

About valleys and mountains:
1- You better be a damn good pilot trying to shake a bogey of your butt in that topography or you'll be pancake in no time.
2- The same limitations that the F-35 will face will also be faced by the Mig21....MIG21 with it's antiquated kinematic and flying profile is not really known for its forgiveness....neither is the Mig29.
3-High speed, low altitude flying is extremely dangerous.........there is a higher probability that you'll crash yourself in a chase during bad weather/night than you will be able to shoot the aggressor.

F-35 is not for a one on one combat only, it is part of the bigger Air Dominance strategy.

I am not a fan of the mig-21 but the mirage 3.
I agree and that's what I am trying to say,LO is no game changer but may be part of the combined arms strategy but can never replace conventional jets in numbers.Air forces will be better of withou LO.
About your second point, I couldn't agree more. flying low needs good skill and as I said only competent airforces can frame such tactics and follow with discipline.
And you seem to underestimate the relevance of the mig-21

"I have the greatest professional regard for MiG-21. The agility of MiG-21 cannot be matched by any of the present day fighters," IAF chief NAK Browne
"This was a pilot's aircraft. We could make it do whatever we wanted. We could take it to the extremes. Handling it was so easy due to the simple technology. Today's aircraft have sophisticated computers that won't allow the pilots that freedom," said Wing Commander Manav Kumaria
Also read this
Mig-21and fighter maneuverability in today's terms

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@holysaturn

How do you rate the Chances of Mig 21 Bison in a conflict with F 16
with its HMS and R 73 E HOBS missile
and Isareli Jammer

It was widely reported that Mig 21 bison performed very well
in Exercises against USAF

Cope India: How the IAF rewrote the rules of air combat | Russia & India Report

The positive attributes of the MiG-21 such as low radar visibility, instantaneous turn rate and “jackrabbit acceleration" were critical factors at Cope India.

 

[holysaturn]

@holysaturn

How do you rate the Chances of Mig 21 Bison in a conflict with F 16
with its HMS and R 73 E HOBS missile
and Isareli Jammer

It was widely reported that Mig 21 bison performed very well
in Exercises against USAF

Cope India: How the IAF rewrote the rules of air combat | Russia & India Report

The positive attributes of the MiG-21 such as low radar visibility, instantaneous turn rate and “jackrabbit acceleration" were critical factors at Cope India.

I am no expert but from whatever I know of cope India ,the mig-21 operated in radar silence with su-30's guiding it. So with the kopyo radar,INS navigation,IFF gear,other air to ground equipment and wiring,heavy R-77's removed and with a good pilot,HMS,r-73 the bison would be a nasty surprise to any fighter.
Just Imagine such a affordable fighter with weapons,performance,Situational awareness(with IRST,LPI RWR,2 colour MAWS,datalink) much higher than the mig-21 in good numbers do to LO fighters and the 4th gen fighter like the f-16.

 

[black-hawk_101]

Will there be any twin seat version for J-31 or J-20s?

 

[illuminatidinesh]

I am no expert but from whatever I know of cope India ,the mig-21 operated in radar silence with su-30's guiding it. So with the kopyo radar,INS navigation,IFF gear,other air to ground equipment and wiring,heavy R-77's removed and with a good pilot,HMS,r-73 the bison would be a nasty surprise to any fighter.
Just Imagine such a affordable fighter with weapons,performance,Situational awareness(with IRST,LPI RWR,2 colour MAWS,datalink) much higher than the mig-21 in good numbers do to LO fighters and the 4th gen fighter like the f-16.

Then we all just agree how much we have got to catch up with USAF, ( Fighter <affordability is not an issue for them>, weapons,experience, SITUATIONAL AWARNESS) .
Quite simply u have pointed out wat GAMBIT has been saying for years.....@Gambit

 

[drunken-monke]

@holysaturn able warriors do not fight loosing war.. I hope you understand what I mean..

 

[holysaturn]

@holysaturn able warriors do not fight loosing war.. I hope you understand what I mean..

Hmmm ya but when people are protective and restrictive in their ideas then failure in war is sure to come and such fog and friction are more for high complexity high risk systems which are made to look successful because they are too big to fail.

 

[Syed Hussain]

On December 18, 2014, the 6th J-20 stealth fighter prototype took off from an airfield in Chengdu. At six airframes, that makes the J-20 the most numerous non-American stealth fighter in the world (the Russian T-50 PAK-FA has only four airworthy examples, after an accident in June 2014 destroyed the fifth model). So far, 2014 has seen the debut flights of four J-20 fighters (2011, 2012, 2013 and 2015).

Fifth generation fighters are commonly accepted to have a stealthy airframe, an active electronically scanned radar, networked sensors and supercruise engines (supercruise engines provide enough velocity by themselves to reach supersonic speeds, without using fuel thirsty afterburners). Currently, the J-20 uses an advanced version of the Russian Al-31F.

2015 features slight improvements to the airframe, compared to 2011 and 2012, with changed tail booms around the engine nozzles. The changes to the stingers are likely to accommodate rearwards facing radar, similar to the secondary radar arrangements on the T-50 PAK-FA. Having secondary radar arrays located on the rear and side will give a fighter 360 degree radar coverage, allowing for greater situational awareness and the ability to shoot long ranged radar guided missiles against pursuing aircraft. 2013 and 2015 both have retractable inflight refueling probes located alongside the cockpit, to extend their operational range.

Coming less than three weeks after the fifth prototype, "2013", first flew on November 29, 2014, the rapid production of J-20 stealth fighters suggests that China's flagship fighter program is entering Low Rate Initial Production (LRIP). LRIP is the stage in the development of military platforms where the design is essentially frozen, thus allowing the manufacturing to begin gaining experience by producing small numbers of the finished design (the F-35 is currently on LRIP Batch 8). The rapid production of four similar fighters within a year suggests that China has settled on the final design of the J-20, and it is likely that production of the first squadron could happen in 2015. The first squadron of 20-24 fighters would be produced in 2015 and early 2016, going to the China Flight Test Evaluation Regiment to develop tactics for the J-20's advanced capabilities. Assuming things go to schedule, the first J-20 squadron would be ready for combat in 2017.

A 2016-2017 introduction places the J-20's debut in the same window as the Russian PAK-FA fighter, as well as the USMC F-35B and USAF F-35A. More importantly, the J-20 would make the PLAAF the first Asian air force to have a fifth generation fighter, definitively shifting the balance of indigenous Asian air superiority to China for the first time in history. Future iterations of the J-20 would be equipped with the supercruise capable WS-15 Chinese turbofan engine, and possibly advanced systems like directed energy weapons (lasers) and networked UAVs.

-Popular Science Magazine