Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[ChineseTiger1986]

You see somebody trying to play around with the word supercruise or even suggest a plane underpowered can have excellent supersonic maneurability.

Then they will come up with fantasy uprated Ruskie engine at 145kn suddenly exported to China after so much saga for Su-35 sales to PLAAF with regards to engine sales.

At this moment, the AL-31F is already out, the only worthy debate is between the WS-10X vs WS-15, but with the surprising gradually unveiling performance of the J-20, the chance is starting to lean toward the WS-15.

I am analyzing with my rationality, not fanboyism. If someone tells me that the Type 002 will be nuclear powered, I will also disagree with him/her. Although I personally want the Type 002 to be nuclear powered, but there is no sign that showing the coming Type 002 will be nuclear powered.

 

[Asoka]

You see somebody trying to play around with the word supercruise or even suggest a plane underpowered can have excellent supersonic maneurability.

Then they will come up with fantasy uprated Ruskie engine at 145kn suddenly exported to China after so much saga for Su-35 sales to PLAAF with regards to engine sales.

This guy is arguing that J-20 can have outstanding supersonic maneuverability, but no supersonic cruise ability, because its still using the supposed Russian Al-31FM2 engine.

The word "silly" can't even begun to describe his argument.

"WS-15 must first be preceded by strong rumours, indications, or proof that WS-15 has reached a state of development where it is ready for that."


The Chinese has keep identity of engine on J-20 tightly underwrapped despite the testing of J-20 is openly done over Chengdu for the last 6 years.

Why is that?

If it's WS-10 or AL-31, there is absolutely no need for it, because the performance of these two engines are well known around the world. There is no secrets in them that will surprise anybody.

Simply, this current J-20 engine must be something new. But why so secretive about it?

Because it's performance is outstanding, even world beating.

It has demonstrated at the China Airshow that it can perform a sustained vertical climb without the use of the Afterburner.

That is, by the thrust of the military power alone, it could lift J-20 vertically up. That's mean its military power alone is greater than the flying weight of J-20.

Astounding performance, not even the F-22 could do it.

This alone could prove J-20 is not using a AL-31 variant.

 

[Blitzo]

" is far more likely that J-20 is using an engine like Al-31FM2"

Find me a link that says the Russian has shipped Al-31FM2 to China. This engine is an phantom. The russian has announced it on 2012, but has no more news since then. Mostly likely, it was never developed, because there is no customers for it. Why not simply use the AL-41, or 117S?

I don't need to prove that J-20 is using Al-31FM2.

I am saying that if J-20 is able to supercruise, then it is likely using an engine like Al-31FM2.


If you believe J-20 is not using Al-31FM2, then the most likely conclusion is that J-20 simply is unable to supercruise, and that the pilot's talk about exceptional supersonic maneuverability of the J-20 is achieved via use of afterburner.

 

[Beast]

Su-35BM was claimed to be able to supercruise (back when it was still called that) lenta.ru/articles/2008/07/04/su35/

Certainly, it is far more likely that Su-35 or PAK FA or J-20 are able to supercruise on high rated Al-31 variants, than J-20 using WS-15 right now.

Su-35 is able to super cruise with engine being denied by sales to China by Russian. I think I do not need to tell you that. Russian say they will not sell the engine separately that is also another fact. That is why 24 Su-35 are bought and the deal is concluded only in late 2016.

Why are you repeatedly avoid answering our enquiries?

 

[Blitzo]

This guy is arguing that J-20 can have outstanding supersonic maneuverability, but no supersonic cruise ability, because its still using the supposed Russian Al-31FM2 engine.

The word "silly" can't even begun to describe his argument.

? I think you have no idea what I wrote.

Outstanding supersonic maneuverability means the aircraft has outstanding maneuverability while at supersonic speed.
Supersonic speed can be achieved via wet thrust or dry thrust; aka via supercruise or via afterburner.

I'm saying if J-20 is able to supercruise, then it is most likely using the Al-31FM2 given what we know.

If J-20 is not using Al-31FM2, then the next most likely scenario is that J-20 simply is unable to supercruise, and that its oustanding maneuverability at supersonic speed is achieved via afterburner.

Su-35 is able to super cruise with engine being denied by sales to China by Russian. I think I do not need to tell you that. Russian say they will not sell the engine separately that is also another fact. That is why 24 Su-35 are bought and the deal is concluded only in late 2016.

Why are you repeatedly avoid answering our enquiries?

I'm not avoiding any enquiry. Su-35 is able to supercruise with an engine that has a thrust that is a couple of kN away from AL-31FM2.

Asok asked me for a Flanker that could supercruise using an Al-31 variant, which Su-35BM's engine was. He did not say that he wanted a Flanker which could supercruise with Al-31FM2. Obviously that is impossible because no Flanker has yet to use the Al-31FM2 to our knowledge.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

This guy is arguing that J-20 can have outstanding supersonic maneuverability, but no supersonic cruise ability, because its still using the supposed Russian Al-31FM2 engine.

The word "silly" can't even begun to describe his argument.

Everyone knows that the maximum supersonic speed between a fourth gen and a fifth gen is no great difference, both can achieve Mach 2+, but the only difference is that the fifth gen can sustain the supersonic speed for quite a while, the fourth gen can only sustain for a very short moment.

When the pilot saying the J-20 got outstanding supersonic performance compared to other fourth gen aircrafts, he was obviously referring the supercruise capability. So playing the words and twisting his meaning here are rather silly, it is a sign showing that he/she is running out of idea to disprove that the J-20 is not using any AL-31F family member.

 

[Asoka]

I don't need to prove that J-20 is using Al-31FM2.

I am saying that if J-20 is able to supercruise, then it is likely using an engine like Al-31FM2.


If you believe J-20 is not using Al-31FM2, then the most likely conclusion is that J-20 simply is unable to supercruise, and that the pilot's talk about exceptional supersonic maneuverability of the J-20 is achieved via use of afterburner.

"I don't need to prove that J-20 is using Al-31FM2."

You need to prove Al-31FM2 actually exists and has sold and delivered to China. I am saying there is no proof that this engine exists beyond the announcement made by the Russian in 2012.

"its oustanding maneuverability at supersonic speed is achieved via afterburner.'

This is so silly. I have explained that outstanding maneuverability at supersonic speed, requires a powerful engine to replenish lost energy, to stay above the transonic region, which is very draggy, and requires much time and fuel, to pass beyond it. And if this engine, requires AB constantly, it will burn up its fuel rapidly, and have to go home, early.

This is no "outstanding maneuverability at supersonic speed".

It's just lame.

 

[Blitzo]

"I don't need to prove that J-20 is using Al-31FM2."

You need to prove Al-31FM2 actually exists and has sold and delivered to China. I am saying there is no proof that this engine exists beyond the announcement made by the Russian in 2012.

Al-31FM2 exists. The announcement in 2012 was when the engine was already in late stages of testing, for consideration of installation onto Sukhoi fighters. There are Russian language reports on this that can be found on a thread, by people who follow the Russian military as closely as we follow the Chinese military -- I can't post links, so if you search for "TR1's great russian aviation thread 7" and go to page 20, starting at reply #577 and a few posts down you'll see what I'm referring to.

Obviously we have no proof that China has ordered this engine, but that isn't exactly a prerequisite that I think we need to assume.


Furthermore, if you truly are not convinced J-20 is using Al-31FM2, then that's fine, then the next logical conclusion is that J-20 currently cannot supercruise, even at low Mach 1 regime, because we sure as hell know J-20 isn't using WS-15, and the super WS-10 variant (often called WS-10IPE) definitely was not ready three years ago and isn't even ready now.

This is so silly. I have explained that outstanding maneuverability at supersonic speed, requires a powerful engine to replenish lost energy. And if this engine requires AB constantly, it will burn up its fuel rapidly and have to go home, early.

This is no "outstanding maneuverability at supersonic speed".

This is not silly.

The pilot did not say that the aircraft was able to achieve supersonic maneuverability with fuel efficiency or prolonged combat endurance.

The pilot only said the aircraft is able to achieve exceptional maneuverability in supersonic speeds. The pilot says nothing about how long the aircraft is able to maintain its exceptional maneuverability at supersonic speed for.

 

[Asoka]

Al-31FM2 exists. The announcement in 2012 was when the engine was already in late stages of testing, for consideration of installation onto Sukhoi fighters. There are Russian language reports on this that can be found on a thread, by people who follow the Russian military as closely as we follow the Chinese military -- I can't post links, so if you search for "TR1's great russian aviation thread 7" and go to page 20, starting at reply #577 and a few posts down you'll see what I'm referring to.

Obviously we have no proof that China has ordered this engine, but that isn't exactly a prerequisite that I think we need to assume.


Furthermore, if you truly are not convinced J-20 is using Al-31FM2, then that's fine, then the next logical conclusion is that J-20 currently cannot supercruise, even at low Mach 1 regime, because we sure as hell know J-20 isn't using WS-15, and the super WS-10 variant (often called WS-10IPE) definitely was not ready three years ago and isn't even ready now.





This is not silly.

The pilot did not say that the aircraft was able to achieve supersonic maneuverability with fuel efficiency or prolonged combat endurance.

The pilot only said the aircraft is able to achieve exceptional maneuverability in supersonic speeds. The pilot says nothing about how long the aircraft is able to maintain its exceptional maneuverability at supersonic speed for.

"Furthermore, if you truly are not convinced J-20 is using Al-31FM2, then that's fine, then the next logical conclusion is that J-20 currently cannot supercruise, even at low Mach 1 regime, because we sure as hell know J-20 isn't using WS-15"

This makes me laugh. I can't believe some people is still this ignorant.

This guy basically claim "exceptional maneuverability in supersonic speeds" do not require the engine sufficiently powerful to do supersonic cruise, without AB.

How the hell, one can have "exceptional maneuverability in supersonic speeds" if he don't have an engine powerful enough, to keep him stay above the transonic region?

Maneuver at supersonic speed, is a lot harder for the engine, than just cruising straight.

This guy has no idea of what he is talking about.

 

[Blitzo]

"Furthermore, if you truly are not convinced J-20 is using Al-31FM2, then that's fine, then the next logical conclusion is that J-20 currently cannot supercruise, even at low Mach 1 regime, because we sure as hell know J-20 isn't using WS-15"

This makes me laugh. I can't believe some people is still this ignorant.

Come on you can do better than that.

If you think J-20 can supercruise and isn't using Al-31FM2 or a similar Russian engine then show us some credible rumours or better yet some photos which demonstrate that WS-15 or WS-10IPE was ready years ago.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

"Furthermore, if you truly are not convinced J-20 is using Al-31FM2, then that's fine, then the next logical conclusion is that J-20 currently cannot supercruise, even at low Mach 1 regime, because we sure as hell know J-20 isn't using WS-15"

This makes me laugh. I can't believe some people is still this ignorant.

If someone still wants to say that the J-20 is using the AL-31FM2, then just let him be. It is just like insisting the Type 002 will still use the steam catapult, but it makes no difference to the reality.

 

[Asoka]

If someone still wants to say that the J-20 is using the AL-31FM2, then just let him be. It is just like insisting the Type 002 will still use the steam catapult, but it makes no difference to the reality.

So true, I have wasted enough time on this guy. Let him be. He probably think one can be an excellent prostitute while remain a virgin, or becoming an Olympic swimmer without knowing how to swim.

 

[Blitzo]

If someone still wants to say that the J-20 is using the AL-31FM2, then just let him be. It is just like insisting the Type 002 will still use the steam catapult, but it makes no difference to the reality.

Oh give me a break.

I'm not saying J-20 is definitely using Al-31FM2.

I'm saying if J-20 can supercruise it's probably using Al-31FM2. If it can't supercruise then it isn't probably isn't using Al-31FM2.


It's all of you who insist J-20 must be using WS-15 or a WS-10 variant and refuse to believe the idea of China's best stealth fighter is using imported (gasp!) engines who give Chinese military watchers the bad name of "fanboys".

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Oh give me a break.

I'm not saying J-20 is definitely using Al-31FM2.

I'm saying if J-20 can supercruise it's probably using Al-31FM2. If it can't supercruise then it isn't probably isn't using Al-31FM2.


It's all of you who insist J-20 must be using WS-15 or a WS-10 variant and refuse to believe the idea of China's best stealth fighter is using imported (gasp!) engines who give Chinese military watchers the bad name of "fanboys".

You are free to believe what you want to believe, but why you have to force others to accept your own belief? It won't change the actual outcome at all.

So true, I have wasted enough time on this guy. Let him be. He probably think one can be an excellent prostitute while remain a virgin, or becoming an Olympic swimmer without knowing how to swim.

When he is running out of idea, he is immediately showing the aggressive tone.

Most staunch AL-31F supporters in the CD forum are notorious anti-China bashers, even they have now conceded their defeat. And this guy self-proclaims to be a China lover, yet he is even more stubborn than those China haters in front of the reality.

 

[帅的一匹]

Even With WS10b J20 can make limited supercruise, the possibility of Russian engine on J20 had been ruled out long time ago.

And we can't exclude the possibility WS15 had entered into service. Who damn knows?