Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[aimarraul]

 

[tsarbomba]

That J-20 in silver/grey looks hot! Nice to see the product of years of experience in aircraft design. Does it have external hardpoints along with internal weapons bay?

Chengdu J-20 is superior to F-35 in eight important ways

‘The End of History’: 25 Years On | The Diplomat

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My text version in case I want to expand the list in the future.

Someone needs to inform Gen. Mike Hostage that the Chinese Chengdu J-20 is superior to the F-35.

1. Chengdu J-20 can supercruise. Lockheed Martin F-35 cannot.

2. Chengdu J-20 has all-aspect stealth. F-35 does not. F-35 has bulges above the left air intake for the gun turret, along the wing root, and the underside. The bulges are not stealthy and run counter to the flat facets or continuous curvature of stealth aircraft design.

3. Chengdu J-20 is a larger plane with a larger radar, which gives it greater detection range.

4. Chengdu J-20 has a larger weapon payload to carry more air-to-air missiles than F-35.

5. Chengdu J-20 is more maneuverable (about 9G). F-35 can only maneuver around 5G.

6. Chengdu J-20 has a combat radius of about 1,200 miles. F-35 has a short combat radius of about 500 miles.

7. Chengdu J-20 has twin engines. If one fails, the J-20 keeps flying. The F-35 only has one engine. If the F-35 engine fails, the F-35 jet drops into the sea.

8. The expected service ceiling for the Chengdu J-20 is about 66,000 feet. The service ceiling for the F-35 is 60,000 feet. This means the J-20 will use its look-down shoot-down radar on the F-35. Also, the J-20's missiles will travel further as it glides down towards the F-35. Conversely, the F-35 missiles will have shorter range as it climbs against gravity in an attempt to reach the J-20.

Is it true that if one engine fails the other can still let the plane fly? Won't it go off balance? I think the correct comparison of J-20 is with F-22. F-35 is designed to be a cheap single engine fighter for sale to US allies and hence is not a match for the J-20.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Please you troll with education, noisy Indian member.

When we are talking about super-cruise, we are talking about aircraft, not the engine.

All jet engines are super-cruise capable if the aerodynamic drag is small enough.

In theory, any object with any engine can reach to the speed of light if there have no dragging.

Why F-35 cannot super cruise is because of

1) F-135 engine low performance at supersonic
2) Overweight fatty body generate huge drag

my dear genius chinese pal

before lecturing others about aviation properly you need to understand the point how a plane is called supercruise fighter

When we are talking about super-cruise, we are talking about aircraft, not the engine.

& how does a plane achieve supercruise capabilty ???? from moon . !!!!
obviously from it's engine only not from aerodyanamic design

even all eurocanards fighters have supercruise capabilty & it achieves it from what ??
obviously through it engines only


Supercruise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

as J20 is a prototype and it is currently fitted with Ws10 engines which cant supercruise at all so it's meaningless to
claim J20 is a supercruise plane until it is fitted with WS 15 engine/or supercruise capable russian engines

Why F-35 cannot super cruise is because of

1) F-135 engine low performance at supersonic
2) Overweight fatty body generate huge drag

hehee
according to your logic then J20 cant also supercruise as everyone including a blind man can say
who is fatter between the two
J20 or F35

CHEERS

 

[Deino]

Sorry that I only noticed this "bashing" just the moment !

Guys ... calm down, it's not the way to argue ...

Deino

 

[davidwang]

That J-20 in silver/grey looks hot! Nice to see the product of years of experience in aircraft design. Does it have external hardpoints along with internal weapons bay?



Is it true that if one engine fails the other can still let the plane fly? Won't it go off balance? I think the correct comparison of J-20 is with F-22. F-35 is designed to be a cheap single engine fighter for sale to US allies and hence is not a match for the J-20.

F-22 is an all aspect fighter jet, while F-35 intended to be 'affordable stealth', even though its no longer affordable today. I think J-20 could match the stealthiness of F-22 on frontal lobe, but the lack of advanced engines is going to be a problem

 

[hk299792458]

I can't understand how people can give affirmation of supercruise capability or not of J-20 today ? Any official information ?

Most of the guys say that bad engine means you can't supercruise, because of bad T/W...etc. The fact is, F-15K and F-22, for example, have same T/W ratio, but one can't supercruise, the second one can.

"I think that" is not a physic rule, it never has been....

Henri K.

 

[gambit]

Please you troll with education, noisy Indian member.

When we are talking about super-cruise, we are talking about aircraft, not the engine.

All jet engines are super-cruise capable if the aerodynamic drag is small enough.

In theory, any object with any engine can reach to the speed of light if there have no dragging.

You are wrong. It is clear you do not know even the basics of a jet engine, let alone on what is 'supercruise'.

Supercruise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Supercruise is sustained supersonic flight of an aircraft with a useful cargo, passenger, or weapons load performed efficiently which typically precludes the use of highly inefficient afterburners (reheat).

Basically, it means to break Mach WITHOUT using the inefficient afterburner.

Why F-35 cannot super cruise is because of

1) F-135 engine low performance at supersonic
2) Overweight fatty body generate huge drag

The F-35 can transonic without using afterburner and can do it for over 100 nm.

Supercruise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Although the Pratt & Whitney F135F-35 engine was not designed to achieve a supercruise capability, the F-35 is able to maintain Mach 1.2 for a dash of 150 miles without using afterburners.

If the F-35 cannot supercruise for as long and as far as the F-22 can, it is because of the engine's design and intention, not because the F-35's body drag. For what the F-35 was designed for, supercruise is not needed, and the fact that the F-35 can break Mach for over 100 miles without afterburner is impressive on its own.

Please stop pretending you know what you are talking about. I am not a Propulsion specialist and I know more than you do.

 

[davidwang]

I can't understand how people can give affirmation of supercruise capability or not of J-20 today ? Any official information ?

Most of the guys say that bad engine means you can't supercruise, because of bad T/W...etc. The fact is, F-15K and F-22, for example, have same T/W ratio, but one can't supercruise, the second one can.

"I think that" is not a physic rule, it never has been....

Henri K.

I can't say anything if 'I know', the best thing I can tell is that 'I think', or 'I guess'.

AL-31F is not bad, it's just not ideal for supercruise. I didn't say that the current J-20 cannot supercruise, maybe she can, but the most important thing concerning the engine is not only its supercruise capability, but many other aspects, its thrust, FADEC, fuel consumption...... here is a quote from Wikipedia

The key challenge in attaining supercruise is not simply attaining a high thrust to weight ratio vis-à-vis the aircraft but a radical redesign of the engine because the air entering a jet engine must always travel at subsonic speeds, regardless of aircraft speed. Otherwise compressibility waves ( or shock waves) will create uncontrollable vibrations among the compressor vanes.

so the bottom line is, even current J-20 can supercruise, she still needs a more powerful engine

 

[gambit]

I can't say anything if 'I know', the best thing I can tell is that 'I think', or 'I guess'.

AL-31F is not bad, it's just not ideal for supercruise. I didn't say that the current J-20 cannot supercruise, maybe she can, but the most important thing concerning the engine is not only its supercruise capability, but many other aspects, its thrust, FADEC, fuel consumption...... here is a quote from Wikipedia


so the bottom line is, even current J-20 can supercruise, she still needs a more powerful engine

A jet engine, in principles, is an internal combustion engine, like the one in your car: A controlled explosion translated into mechanical force.

The difference is that in a piston type internal combustion engine, peak temperatures are rhythmic: up/down, whereas with a jet engine, peak temperature is constant. The latter is what make a jet engine unique in difficulty in design and manufacturing.

Afterburn is when we literally take fuel and literally dump it into the hot exhaust and turn that into a barely controlled explosion. It is an inefficient and wasteful feature but eminently necessary if one is to break Mach, and if one is at sea level, it is extremely wasteful.

Supercruise is the ability to break Mach, not at sea level, without using the afterburn feature. Yes, lower and lower body drag can help but ultimately, it is all engine.

 

[j20blackdragon]

 

[Taygibay]

I'd have to disagree with you overall correct correction, Gambit.

Supercruise is the ability to maintain supersonic speeds hence the Super / cruise affix.

At minima this can means achieving Mach 1 + with afterburners and maintaining it without them.
What you describe is the best case scenario; more rare then most people think.

But on the rest you are right and both other posters were wrong.

Have a good day all, Tay.

 

[longlong]

You are wrong. It is clear you do not know even the basics of a jet engine, let alone on what is 'supercruise'.

Supercruise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Basically, it means to break Mach WITHOUT using the inefficient afterburner.


The F-35 can transonic without using afterburner and can do it for over 100 nm.

Supercruise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If the F-35 cannot supercruise for as long and as far as the F-22 can, it is because of the engine's design and intention, not because the F-35's body drag. For what the F-35 was designed for, supercruise is not needed, and the fact that the F-35 can break Mach for over 100 miles without afterburner is impressive on its own.

Please stop pretending you know what you are talking about. I am not a Propulsion specialist and I know more than you do.

You have no basic knowledge of science and make me look you down.
It's not my duty to educate you and above troller here.

Just remind you: Super-cruise or not depends on drag, not engine. F-22 will lost its super-cruise ability with external load.

With WS-10 or AL-31, J-20 may take longer time than F-22 to reach to super-cruise.

Anyway, J-20 supercruise tested already.

ciao

 

[gambit]

You have no basic knowledge of science and make me look you down.
It's not my duty to educate you and above troller here.

Just remind you: Super-cruise or not depends on drag, not engine. F-22 will lost its super-cruise ability with external load.

With WS-10 or AL-31, J-20 may take longer time than F-22 to reach to super-cruise.

Anyway, J-20 supercruise tested already.

ciao

Drag does have an effect on the ability of any body to reach a certain speed. But this is about engine design, as in efficiency, than it is about body drag. Mach is about breaking the sound barrier. How you do that depends on the propulsive means. You can use a rocket engine or a jet engine, but if you are going to use a jet engine, then to date, the only way a jet engine can make a body break Mach is thru afterburner.

Supercruise is the production of thrust BEFORE AFTERBURNER that are enough to help the aircraft break Mach.

Engines: Supercruise - How F/A-22 Raptors Work

...fly at supersonic speeds without using the afterburner.

Combined with the sleek aerodynamic design, the engines allow the Raptor to cruise at supersonic speeds with less fuel consumption than any other aircraft.

If the combination is a clean F-22 with X amount of thrust to supercruise, then the goal is achieved. If the request is a clean F-22 or an F-22 with external load, then the engine must be (re)designed to meet that request. But no matter what, the proper context of 'supercruise' is the ability of an engine designed to match an aircraft to make that aircraft break and sustain Mach without the use of afterburner. For the F-22, it require two F119-PW-100 engines to make the jet supercruise. So it is not simply drag but also mass/weight.

 

[longlong]

Drag does have an effect on the ability of any body to reach a certain speed. But this is about engine design, as in efficiency, than it is about body drag. Mach is about breaking the sound barrier. How you do that depends on the propulsive means. You can use a rocket engine or a jet engine, but if you are going to use a jet engine, then to date, the only way a jet engine can make a body break Mach is thru afterburner.

Supercruise is the production of thrust BEFORE AFTERBURNER that are enough to help the aircraft break Mach.

Engines: Supercruise - How F/A-22 Raptors Work

If the combination is a clean F-22 with X amount of thrust to supercruise, then the goal is achieved. If the request is a clean F-22 or an F-22 with external load, then the engine must be (re)designed to meet that request. But no matter what, the proper context of 'supercruise' is the ability of an engine designed to match an aircraft to make that aircraft break and sustain Mach without the use of afterburner. For the F-22, it require two F119-PW-100 engines to make the jet supercruise. So it is not simply drag but also mass/weight.

I'm not surprised at all: you're trying to invent an only-for-non-Chinese science again (and again).

Supercuise is nothing new and thereof to be proud, there do have many aircraft are capable of it.

British achieved supercruise 60 years ago with BAC Lightning, the engine it used is R-R Avon which is a turbojet only.
This engine has other applications as Hawker hunter, Saab 35 Draken without supercruise ability.

Not surprised, your theory is sick.

Anyone with science education will agree: it's the low aerodynamic drag not engine (though it at least must be a jet engine) supercruise an aircraft.

F-22 will lose supercuise with external loading, F-15 will not supercruise even with two F-119.
I predict F-22 will maintain supercruise even with F-100.

Do remember any satellite is super-super-super-cruising at no less than M23 in outerspace with or without a toy size engine for there have almost zero drag there.

 

[jhungary]

I'm not surprised at all: you're trying to invent an only-for-non-Chinese science again (and again).

Supercuise is nothing new and thereof to be proud, there do have many aircraft are capable of it.

British achieved supercruise 60 years ago with BAC Lightning, the engine it used is R-R Avon which is a turbojet only.
This engine has other applications as Hawker hunter, Saab 35 Draken without supercruise ability.

Not surprised, your theory is sick.

Anyone with science education will agree: it's the low aerodynamic drag not engine (though it at least must be a jet engine) supercruise an aircraft.

F-22 will lose supercuise with external loading, F-15 will not supercruise even with two F-119.
I predict F-22 will maintain supercruise even with F-100.

Do remember any satellite is super-super-super-cruising at no less than M23 in outerspace with or without a toy size engine for there have almost zero drag there.

low drag will affect speed, but the effect is parabolic, which mean regardless of engine put, the speed will decrease due to drag and at a lower altitudes, the speed will drop slower as air is denser.

However , supercruise is the ability to stay above MACH without the use of afterburner. You can go above MACH regardless of w/d ratio as the speed provide (The forward momentum) would always greater than the Drag, thus, will always accelerate

However, the drag of a planes are always constant as the shape of the plane wont change, but if the engine efficiency is high enough to Pull the plane, that plane, regardless of drag would achieve supercruise, given the engine output or the efficiency stayed above the drag

Hence, you are wrong