Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[ice bomb]

No bro. j-20 shaping is far superior in terms of stealth compare to PAK FA. Even Russian general admit PAF KA stealth is inferior to F-22, of cos Russian will stop short of calling their T-50 inferior to Chinese. If you think just having a superior engine will mean everything then why shall we called those thing 5th generation fighter?

There is no way you can know that. The only way to tell is through a radar. Not through naked eyes.
I see no reason to underestimate the Russian. I am sure their designers know that there is more to VLO fighters than a superior engines, or you think chinese designers are ahead of russians now? You dont really believe that, do you?

 

[Lure]

I will assume it is more a software issue than raw computerpower. You need to know what to put into the computers. After all both India and China got supercomputers. It cant be just about computerpower.

It's not about the supercomputers on the ground. It's about the amount of computational power that you can put inside a radar. Crunching the data comes from the radar signals is very straightforward. There is no magic algorithm that can solve the issue. If you want to detect a stealth plane you need to be able to distinguish the shape a bug from the shape of the plane. Yeah those planes has the RCS of a bug in the sky you heard it right. What you need is being able to process enormous amount of data. Think of this like taking a photo. If you want to identify very small objects on a photograph you need higher resolution (which means higher amount of data) than you run some bunch of Machine Learning algorithms which distinguishes a plane from another small objects that might be in the air with similar RCS. The implementation of Machine Learning algorithms are pretty straightforward. You can find tons of libraries online.

The main problem is (if you know discrete math) as your input data rises in quantity (remember the resolution analogy) your computational requirements for processing data increases depending on your algorithm. The effective Machine Learning algorithms that has very low probability of false positive or negative rate (i.e very good performance of confusion matrix) has exponential boundries. Which means that as your input increases the amount of computational power needed to process the data rises exponentially.

That's why you need to be able to put higher amount of processing power to radars. You do achieve it in two ways. You parallelize your system and put high amount of cores in it which has a certain pay off though. You can't exploit that too much. If you put too much cores and parallelize your system a lot you come to an equillibrium point where afterwards your processing capability gets decreased. Because process intercommunication dominates the computational time.

Second way is waiting for the Moore's law and hope that in the future you will be able to put enough transistors in a certain volume which will make your processors work on higher clock cycle and which means faster data processing.

Also there are minor architectural changes inside the cores which makes them more efficient but that has a minor effect.

 

[conworldus]

You stirred up a hornet nests of the Indians trolls, bro. If the Indians, including Mr Austerlitz, understand stealth, they wouldn't be buying T-50 from Russia in the first place. Every time India fails, Indians will blame their "corrupt" politician. Their real problem is the lack of quality human capital in the greater population, and that's reflected by the ignorance of Indian members here.

J-20 making great strides。

Barring any major setback，state “A” induction in 2015 almost a certainty。

Watch this space。



Even with canards，J-20's stealth is much better than your Russian junk the induction of which is a distant dream and after many more billions of dollars on top of what are already committed。

 

[ptldM3]

You stirred up a hornet nests of the Indians trolls, bro. If the Indians, including Mr Austerlitz, understand stealth, they wouldn't be buying T-50 from Russia in the first place. Every time India fails, Indians will blame their "corrupt" politician. Their real problem is the lack of quality human capital in the greater population, and that's reflected by the ignorance of Indian members here.

I wish the designers at Sukhoi and HAL were as smart and knowlagable as the people on this forum. It sure does seem that there is a lot of Chinese aerospace engineers and scientists that specialize in electro magnetic frequencies reduction and they all just seem to be members of pkd forum.

 

[Side-Winder]

T-50 may be good but ofcourse can't be as stealthy as raptor or J-20
somewhat comparable to F-35 -- talking of 'stealth'

 

[SQ8]

I wish the designers at Sukhoi and HAL were as smart and knowlagable as the people on this forum. It sure does seem that there is a lot of Chinese aerospace engineers and scientists that specialize in electro magnetic frequencies reduction and they all just seem to be members of pkd forum.

The question is not of one nationality but of all. You will go all out in defending Russian equipment even if it borders on the ridiculous as will those from India. Pakistanis will try to paint the JF-17 as the next best thing to happen after the Jet engine and the Chinese will try to defend their attempts to catch up to the world. But for those who actually love aviation.. and I mean aviation and not just loose babbles..they will see beyond these diatribes and focus on the facts.

Fact: Neither the T-50 nor the J-20 are ever going to match the F-22 for overall stealth simply because they lag behind in the field. Because of which both designs are looking to build their strengths in certain areas ahead of the F-22. The T-50 for eg is relying on being a better air combat fighter than the F-22 and try to get close enough to engage it. The J-20 is looking to simply scoot past the F-22 to get at the targets which are being defended.

Plausible Fact: There are ONLY 182 F-22s that are going to be out there and they cost a fortune to build, they also will not be used by anybody else other than the USAF. The exact costs of the T-50 and J-20 are still unknown but it is certain that there will be definitely more built of each than the F-22. They will however face a larger number of F-35s which rely on a balance of sensors and stealth; a balance that is superior to whatever the Russians or the Chinese will field. To this end the Chinese are ahead of the Russians in the hi-lo mix of 5th gen fighter programs but the Russians already have a proven platform in the Su-35 series to make life for the F-35 a little less easy.

The current Shaping on the J-20 or rather the stealth efforts are different to the T-50. The T-50 looks more to be a compromise for a low rcs in the front 200 sphere while the J-20 will probably present a lower frontal RCS than the T-50. In air combat, if high boresight missiles are taken out of the mix, both the T-50 and F-22 will eat the J-20 for lunch. However, the J-20 may have a high instantaneous turn rate courtesy of the delta and huge canards which will allow it to take its pot shots at either fighter should they face an encounter. Moreover, the J-20's recent reveal of the WVR aam missile bays seems to suggest a philosophy of relying on the missiles IR seeker knowing that it will not be able to get a radar lock on a stealth system. Which is why I further support the idea that the J-20 is not looking to engage either fighter in WVR unless it really has to. That doesn't mean it cant hold its own against a 4th gen aircraft like the F-16 and perhaps even match the F-35.. but essentially against the two purposefully designed air dominance fighters it will most likely lose if not for high boresight weapons.

Which brings us to sensors and electronics on the J-20 which re an unknown but with its huge nose it is likely it could hold an excellent long range and powerful AESA package(provided the reliability and sophistication of Chinese electronics manufacturing matches it) that would allow it to engage at fairly long ranges and(if the Chinese crack the LPI equation) be able to target and kill High Value assets like AWACS and ELINT assets without their escorts having time to react.

A lot of this game is about sensor and electronics sophistication; a field where as much as pride and nationalism hurts.. the Americans are far ahead.

 

[Lure]

The question is not of one nationality but of all. You will go all out in defending Russian equipment even if it borders on the ridiculous as will those from India. Pakistanis will try to paint the JF-17 as the next best thing to happen after the Jet engine and the Chinese will try to defend their attempts to catch up to the world. But for those who actually love aviation.. and I mean aviation and not just loose babbles..they will see beyond these diatribes and focus on the facts.

Nationalism is a disease that makes you distort the facts.

Fact: Neither the T-50 nor the J-20 are ever going to match the F-22 for overall stealth simply because they lag behind in the field. Because of which both designs are looking to build their strengths in certain areas ahead of the F-22. The T-50 for eg is relying on being a better air combat fighter than the F-22 and try to get close enough to engage it. The J-20 is looking to simply scoot past the F-22 to get at the targets which are being defended.

But prejudice also is..

 

[SQ8]

Nationalism is a disease that makes you distort the facts.

But prejudice also is..

Which is why one must be very very objective in making the analysis. And not cheer based on underdog puppy syndrome.

 

[Lure]

Which is why one must be very very objective in making the analysis. And not cheer based on underdog puppy syndrome.

And also one needs to be patient enough to see the final work before making a judgement. Speculation is not a data.

 

[Lure]

I wish the designers at Sukhoi and HAL were as smart and knowlagable as the people on this forum. It sure does seem that there is a lot of Chinese aerospace engineers and scientists that specialize in electro magnetic frequencies reduction and they all just seem to be members of pkd forum.

Don't mind him. He is not mature enough to see who is his nation's real competitor is. I can't understand why some Chinese members doesn't respect their alliance with Russians. China-Russia partnership is very very important in today's international politics. And this partnership should advance, not go backwards because of selfish pride.

 

[Snowden]

The question is not of one nationality but of all. You will go all out in defending Russian equipment even if it borders on the ridiculous as will those from India. Pakistanis will try to paint the JF-17 as the next best thing to happen after the Jet engine and the Chinese will try to defend their attempts to catch up to the world. But for those who actually love aviation.. and I mean aviation and not just loose babbles..they will see beyond these diatribes and focus on the facts.

Fact: Neither the T-50 nor the J-20 are ever going to match the F-22 for overall stealth simply because they lag behind in the field. Because of which both designs are looking to build their strengths in certain areas ahead of the F-22. The T-50 for eg is relying on being a better air combat fighter than the F-22 and try to get close enough to engage it. The J-20 is looking to simply scoot past the F-22 to get at the targets which are being defended.

Plausible Fact: There are ONLY 182 F-22s that are going to be out there and they cost a fortune to build, they also will not be used by anybody else other than the USAF. The exact costs of the T-50 and J-20 are still unknown but it is certain that there will be definitely more built of each than the F-22. They will however face a larger number of F-35s which rely on a balance of sensors and stealth; a balance that is superior to whatever the Russians or the Chinese will field. To this end the Chinese are ahead of the Russians in the hi-lo mix of 5th gen fighter programs but the Russians already have a proven platform in the Su-35 series to make life for the F-35 a little less easy.

The current Shaping on the J-20 or rather the stealth efforts are different to the T-50. The T-50 looks more to be a compromise for a low rcs in the front 200 sphere while the J-20 will probably present a lower frontal RCS than the T-50. In air combat, if high boresight missiles are taken out of the mix, both the T-50 and F-22 will eat the J-20 for lunch. However, the J-20 may have a high instantaneous turn rate courtesy of the delta and huge canards which will allow it to take its pot shots at either fighter should they face an encounter. Moreover, the J-20's recent reveal of the WVR aam missile bays seems to suggest a philosophy of relying on the missiles IR seeker knowing that it will not be able to get a radar lock on a stealth system. Which is why I further support the idea that the J-20 is not looking to engage either fighter in WVR unless it really has to. That doesn't mean it cant hold its own against a 4th gen aircraft like the F-16 and perhaps even match the F-35.. but essentially against the two purposefully designed air dominance fighters it will most likely lose if not for high boresight weapons.

Which brings us to sensors and electronics on the J-20 which re an unknown but with its huge nose it is likely it could hold an excellent long range and powerful AESA package(provided the reliability and sophistication of Chinese electronics manufacturing matches it) that would allow it to engage at fairly long ranges and(if the Chinese crack the LPI equation) be able to target and kill High Value assets like AWACS and ELINT assets without their escorts having time to react.

A lot of this game is about sensor and electronics sophistication; a field where as much as pride and nationalism hurts.. the Americans are far ahead.

The F-22 is just as unproven as the J-20. Has it ever seen actual combat against a opposition fighter with a very good pilot? No.
The F-22 is more like an American propaganda campaign than actual capability.

You and the Indians have bought into superb American propaganda about how great the F-22 is. If it is as great as they say it is, prove it.

I'm skeptical how YOU know the difference in capability between US, Russia and China.
How do you know what the J-20 has?

Which is why one must be very very objective in making the analysis. And not cheer based on underdog puppy syndrome.

I agree, the sad thing is you are doing the same thing in reverse.

 

[SQ8]

The F-22 is just as unproven as the J-20. Has it ever seen actual combat against a opposition fighter with a very good pilot? No.
The F-22 is more like an American propaganda campaign than actual capability.

You and the Indians have bought into superb American propaganda about how great the F-22 is. If it is as great as they say it is, prove it.

I'm skeptical how YOU know the difference in capability between US, Russia and China.
How do you know what the J-20 has?



I agree, the sad thing is you are doing the same thing in reverse.

Reactionaries. You are only shooting tangents without actually putting up relevant questions.
By your logic, the J-11, the J-10 , the FC-1, the JH-7 are all unproven aircraft that may also be running on propaganda. .. by contrast the Su-27 must be a super fighter since it has at least seen combat in ethopia back in the 90s.
Learn to debate on logical points instead of shooting tangents on what I know and dont know. Only a fool tries to argue by discrediting the other person because they have NOTHING to argue with. The Americans play their own psychological warfare with the world but reactionary folks like you fall into the worse trap of overconfidence.
Either focus on the post and rebut that through points, or ill make sure you leave the thread.

 

[SQ8]

And also one needs to be patient enough to see the final work before making a judgement. Speculation is not a data.

Then half of the worlds intelligence agencies would not pass on intelligence at all. After all, the F-15 was built to counter something that wasnt even close to what it was thought to be. Please read my post again and focus on the way it is written. Focus on giving me a counter argument on the "judgement" instead of grammar.

 

[Obambam]

Reactionaries. You are only shooting tangents without actually putting up relevant questions.
By your logic, the J-11, the J-10 , the FC-1, the JH-7 are all unproven aircraft that may also be running on propaganda. .. by contrast the Su-27 must be a super fighter since it has at least seen combat in ethopia back in the 90s.
Learn to debate on logical points instead of shooting tangents on what I know and dont know. Only a fool tries to argue by discrediting the other person because they have NOTHING to argue with. The Americans play their own psychological warfare with the world but reactionary folks like you fall into the worse trap of overconfidence.
Either focus on the post and rebut that through points, or ill make sure you leave the thread.

I actually prefer the Northrop's YF-23 over Lockheed's F-22.

It was 'allegedly' faster and stealthier but the later was chosen because it was more agile. China on the other hand went for canards to give its version of stealth plane added maneuverability.

To me, this suggests that they are not as stealthy as they could have been. Both designs have compromised their stealth for added agility or maneuverability would you not agree?

 

[Snowden]

Reactionaries. You are only shooting tangents without actually putting up relevant questions.
By your logic, the J-11, the J-10 , the FC-1, the JH-7 are all unproven aircraft that may also be running on propaganda. .. by contrast the Su-27 must be a super fighter since it has at least seen combat in ethopia back in the 90s.
Learn to debate on logical points instead of shooting tangents on what I know and dont know. Only a fool tries to argue by discrediting the other person because they have NOTHING to argue with. The Americans play their own psychological warfare with the world but reactionary folks like you fall into the worse trap of overconfidence.
Either focus on the post and rebut that through points, or ill make sure you leave the thread.

Provide proof showing what sensors and electronics the J-20 has. You know the J-20 more than anybody in China so I would like to know. Because we Chinese want to learn from experts like yourself about what capability the J-20 has.

Can you give me a list of what the sensors and electronics the F-22 has that our inferior J-20 don't have?
Just for comparison.

No need to threaten me because I asked a couple of tough questions. I want to learn from anyone that has seen the sensors and electronics of the J-20.