Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Deino]

I just simply google and found only this news left.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...ng-US-stealth-bomber-technology-to-China.html

At 1 time, most of those that believe in google as sauce but they acted like they can't google themselves. Other news probably removed due to old news, but there's still 1 left. So what's the big deal of China hiring foreign engineers? Face issue?

As @Globenim already noted, You seem to have a deep misunderstanding also, to call Google a source is more a joke than a fact.

So for the next time, please do your homework better, read and try to understand what's said in a certain source, mention this source so that we can decide on our own how reliable and if it is correct what you concluded, which in your case in fact is not too much left.

 

[Maxpane]

 

[Su33KUB]

You claimed China was "hiring" "engineers" (plural) "involved in B2 stealth bomber development" "for J20 development"

Your "news" article is about one Indian Northrop engineer who was accussed to share B2 related documents with more than a handful countries on the international market including Israel, Switzerland and Germany (countries we all know are struggling with technology and depend on Americans ) and accussed of somehow aiding China to design a nozzle for cruise missiles as a consultant by some Hawaiian U.S. cangaroo court, then left off with a minor sentence.

Even the accussations against China dont match up with your claims. Nevermind the lack of credibility giving the source of the accussations. But why would you bother to post it anyways? Saving face or just stubborn?

That's not how Google search works. And you are left with 0 not 1.

simplistic view, aircraft take years to be developed, on average a modern aircraft takes between 10 to 15 years of development, translate it to many, many research and development hours a year, it is not 3 or 4 hours of research and development, but 10000 to 30000 hours of research, aircraft are made with millions of parts, it is pretty expensive work that result in modern aircraft very limited production numbers just to give you an example a simple cessna type aircraft was built in 44000 aircraft, and it is a pretty difficult aircraft to build and design, nations like Venezuela or Colombia barely can design and build such types of Aircraft, Today in Europe 2 or 3 nations take several years to build aircraft like Typhoon, to give you a simple example Eurofighter started development in 1980s first flew as technology demonstrator in the form of EAP in 1986 and flew as prototype form in 1994 and entered service in the early 2000s, to be exact in 2003, and similar was Rafale, now if you think China that was building J-8II in 1986 and passed to build a Gripen type aircraft with Russian and Israeli help in the form of J-10 in 1997 and later went to build the J-20 in 2011 is because they did it by themselves let me laugh about, if you know have many suppliers or just how many kilometers of aircraft harnesses are in a modern aircraft, then you know China received help, do you think it looks like F-35 just by coincidence only a fool can think like that, just consider that Japan will take until 2030s to develop an aircraft slightly better than F-22 and they flew their tech demonstrator 16 to 20 years earlier, and same will be Europe, just remember WWII, the best chess player is always the one that divides and conquer, and the americans are master players, to give you a simple example China was during clinton a nation favoured and Nixon knew Ribbentrop molotov pact was made for false allies, Remember the Soviets also invaded Poland but England and France never declared the war to the Soviet Union, and remember the Nazis trained their paratroopers in the Soviet Union.

Remember F-35 has almost 2 decades in the making and the Chinese have a tendency to copy F-35 and several other american aircraft projects.

 

[Ultima Thule]

simplistic view, aircraft take years to be developed, on average a modern aircraft takes between 10 to 15 years of development, translate it to many, many research and development hours a year, it is not 3 or 4 hours of research and development, but 10000 to 30000 hours of research, aircraft are made with millions of parts, it is pretty expensive work that result in modern aircraft very limited production numbers just to give you and example a simple cessna type aircraft was built in 44000 aircraft, and it is a pretty difficult aircraft to build and design, nations like Venezuela or Colombia barely can design and build such types of Aircraft, Today in Europe 2 or 3 nations take several years to build aircraft like, to give you a simple example Eurofighter started development in 1980s first flew as technology demonstrator in the form of EAP in 1986 and flew as prototype form in 1994 and entered service in the early 2000s, to be exact in 2003, and similar was Rafale, now if you think China that was building J-8II in 1986 and passed to build a Gripen type aircraft with Russian and Israeli help in the form of J-10 in 1997 and later went to build the J-20 in 2011 is because they did it by themselves let me laugh about, if you know have many suppliers or just how many kilometers of aircraft harnesses are in a modern aircraft, then you know China received help, do you think it looks like F-35 just by coincidence only a fool can think like that, just consider that Japan will take until 2030s to develop an aircraft slightly better than F-22 and they flew their tech demonstrator 16 to 20 years earlier, and same will be Europe, just remember WWII, the best chess player is always the one that divides and conquer, and the americans are master players, to give you a simple example China was during clinton a nation favoured and Nixon knew Ribbentrop molotov pact was made to face to false allies, Remember the Soviets also invaded Poland but England and France never declared the war to the Soviet Union, and remember the Nazis trained their paratroopers in the Soviet Union.

Remember F-35 has almost 2 decades in the making and the Chinese have a tendency to copy F-35 and several other american aircraft projects.

You (Japan/USA) have no Proof that China copy tech of F-35, its just a blame/dirty game by USA and copy cat era in military tech is lover for China, J-20 could be Inspired by more then Mig-1.44 with Stealth (Innovation/inventions) then F-35 @Su33KUB

 

[gambit]

...if you know have many suppliers or just how many kilometers of aircraft harnesses are in a modern aircraft, then you know China received help, do you think it looks like F-35 just by coincidence only a fool can think like that,...

Very good, sir...

I will add some more controversy to the debate...

Here is the C-17, a cargo or 'trash hauler' design...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_C-17_Globemaster_III

Here the F-104, an interceptor or 'go fast' design...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_F-104_Starfighter

These two jets are like east and west, and ne'er the twain shall meet.

In the middle between the C-17 and the F-104 are literally millions of conceptions, plans, prototypes, and deployed designs for every mission type. Here is what people do not understand: conceptions outnumber plans, plans outnumber prototypes, and prototypes outnumber deployed designs. What it means is that by the time the manufacturer and customer agreed upon a design, we are looking at several discarded conceptions, plans, and prototypes before said agreement. Then money exchanged hands and production begins.

Most people believes the F-15 came from the MIG-25. In fact, most Internet forum takes exceptional glee in pointing out how the Americans 'copied' from the MIG-25. In truth, the F-15 and the MIG-25 came from the A-5. The deployed A-5 design have a single vertical stabilizer, but the original readied to be deployed final design had twin vertical stabilizers, which the US Navy deemed too radical, so North American modified the design to have a single vertical stabilizer.

Using the A-5/F-15/MIG-25 example, the evidence for 'help' is clear. If you see someone flying a novel design, already at least 1/4 if not 1/3 of the hard work is completed for you. The assistance is indirect. There is no doubt of the genetic tie between the American F-16 and the Japanese F-2. Same for the older F-18 Hornet and the newer and larger F-18 Super Hornet.

When I transitioned from the F-111 to the F-16, I learned that when the F-16 debuted, its bubble canopy with its clarity and toughness practically shocked air forces worldwide. There have been canopies have been sort of bubble-like designs in the past, even as far back as WW II. What made the F-16's canopy exceptional was its curvature from front to rear. Past bubble-like canopies were partial with a planar section in front for HUD distortion free. The F-16's true bubble canopy was curved all around and still distortion free for the HUD camera view. Knowing this is possible with the F-16, aircraft makers worked to incorporate new transparent materials and manufacturing techniques for their designs. Knowing what a competitor can do is already 1/2 of the assistance. The other half is up to you.

When you said suppliers and kilometers of wiring, that is exceptional perception of logistics, sir.

In the US military, each service branch have its own version of 'foreign technology exploitation' office. Inside this office is the intelligence section where they tries to glean as much information as possible about any adversary hardware. Anything from who supplies the paint to the oil to the electronics. Have no doubt the PLA have the same intent and operations to extract information from any source.

When Lockheed was building the SR-71, if it was known that it was Lockheed who was buying titanium, that would have triggered an investigation by the Soviets, so a front company was created to buy titanium and even bought from the Soviets.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smit...lackbird-epitome-cold-war-spycraft-180953402/

...the SR-71 almost entirely out of titanium, a metal that is heat resistant and relatively lightweight but difficult to work with. In the early 1960s, it was also hard to find. One of the best sources was the Soviet Union, so the CIA, which also oversaw development of Blackbird’s predecessor, the A-12 Oxcart, set up shell companies abroad to purchase the metal from the very nation it was spying on.

Right now, any US company that is working on artificial intelligence is being closely watched by China's intelligence services. The idea that future versions of the F-22 and F-35 with AI as co-pilot is as great a threat as a new missile design.

The forum's Chinese members, and their supporters, takes great offense at any mention that Chinese 'stealth' designs may have foreign assistance of any type. But you are on the correct path.

 

[kungfugymnast]

As @Globenim already noted, You seem to have a deep misunderstanding also, to call Google a source is more a joke than a fact.

So for the next time, please do your homework better, read and try to understand what's said in a certain source, mention this source so that we can decide on our own how reliable and if it is correct what you concluded, which in your case in fact is not too much left.

Only idiots would call google and website links as source. A news posted on printed magazines and books with renowned publisher is more genuine as they have rules to follow. However, the best source is from the manufacturer and military involved. None of these have links at all. So based on your mentality, source = website link?

If person like gambit served in US air force, he explained how to operate TWS, how to use the RWR perform evasive maneuver, etc that can't be found on google & no website link, are you going to label his facts as lies? The AESA incorporated RWR is never revealed on website where some claimed it could pinpoint incoming missile from the front angle. So if gambit explains this based on F15C with AESA radar is to be labelled as fake too?

You claimed China was "hiring" "engineers" (plural) "involved in B2 stealth bomber development" "for J20 development"

Your "news" article is about one Indian Northrop engineer who was accussed to share B2 related documents with more than a handful countries on the international market including Israel, Switzerland and Germany (countries we all know are struggling with technology and depend on Americans ) and accussed of somehow aiding China to design a nozzle for cruise missiles as a consultant by some Hawaiian U.S. cangaroo court, then left off with a minor sentence.

Even the accussations against China dont match up with your claims. Nevermind the lack of credibility giving the source of the accussations. But why would you bother to post it anyways? Saving face or just stubborn?

That's not how Google search works. And you are left with 0 not 1.

Do you know how to read? I said most of the news can't be found and only left 1 that still mentioned J20 and northrop. When US no longer buys fighter jets like it did back in 70's, 80's, 90's where most contracts awarded to politically favored Lockheed, several companies began merger, downsized or closed down. Numbers of engineers left and China began fishing for these experts. It came up hot in the news throughout newspapers, magazines at that time. So what's your issue if these news are true?

 

[Globenim]

simplistic view

Yeah, thanks for the wall of irrelevant trivia and usless opinions, that never once explained how a single Indian who never had longerterm or regular contact with China suddenly turned into multiple hired B2 engineers and how a cruise missle nozzle (allegedly) designed with some Indian subcontractors aid turned into a J20 stealth fighter co-engineered by those hired foreigners and his (allegedly) multiple (allegedly) military (alleged) sources turned into a single unrelated generic yellow press article the second people made those pesky demands to substantiate his claims with proof, to not broaden my "simplistic view" at all.

Do you know how to read? I said most of the news can't be found and only left 1

Not the most genius reply to put right after the sentence calling bullshit on what you "said". And as said and explained you are left with zero not 1.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Do you know how to read? I said most of the news can't be found and only left 1 that still mentioned J20 and northrop. When US no longer buys fighter jets like it did back in 70's, 80's, 90's where most contracts awarded to politically favored Lockheed, several companies began merger, downsized or closed down. Numbers of engineers left and China began fishing for these experts. It came up hot in the news throughout newspapers, magazines at that time. So what's your issue if these news are true?

And this only Propaganda of west/US with no solid proofs and those newspaper/magazines are unreliable/propaganda machines of US/EU govts against China, in Past there it is true Russian and Ukrainian aerospace engineers/scientists cames to China after dissolution of Soviet Union @kungfugymnast

 

[Su33KUB]

Yeah, thanks for the wall of irrelevant trivia and usless opinions, that never once explained how a single Indian who never had longerterm or regular contact with China suddenly turned into multiple hired B2 engineers and how a cruise missle nozzle (allegedly) designed with some Indian subcontractors aid turned into a J20 stealth fighter co-engineered by those hired foreigners and his (allegedly) multiple (allegedly) military (alleged) sources turned into a single unrelated generic yellow press article the second people made those pesky demands to substantiate his claims with proof, to not broaden my "simplistic view" at all.


Not the most genius reply to put right after the sentence calling bullshit on what you "said". And as said and explained you are left with zero not 1.

The state of the Chinese aviation industry is quite complex, J-20 reflexes more or less the state of their aviation, for a nation to go from one generation into another is not easy as real scientific and engineering goes, certainly China has a developed industry, but when you see the C-919 foreign suppliers you can guess what can they do, aircraft are not models but a composite of different technologies that require very large budgets and a very long process to absorb technologies, in the 2000s China was barely coping Su-27 and receiving an F-16 type aircraft in very small numbers to give you an example China has never produced as many J-10s as the USA has made F-16s, that tell you how difficult for them is to build aircraft, J-20, despite undoubtedly is build on the basis of immature design reflects concepts copied from the West which took to the Americans many years of development so basically they are riding on foreign knowledge, how they got their knowledge well it is a matter of debate but the americans said the F-35 technology was passed illegally to China, but in reality, F-35 is a F-105 type aircraft and China has copied an aircraft not an ideal fighter despite they tried to make it more advanced they cobbled ideas already proven in Russia and the USA, the aircraft is impressive no doubt, but still lack originality and it is obvious they are riding the american school of aeronautics

 

[Ultima Thule]

The state of the Chinese aviation industry is quite complex, J-20 reflexes more or less the state of their aviation, for a nation to go from one generation into another is not easy as real scientific and engineering goes, certainly China has a developed industry, but when you see the C-919 foreign suppliers you can guess what can they do, aircraft are not models but a composite of different technologies that require very large budgets and a very long process to absorb technologies, in the 2000s China was barely coping Su-27 and receiving an F-16 type aircraft in very small numbers to give you an example China has never produced as many J-10s as the USA has made F-16s, that tell you how difficult for them is to build aircraft, J-20, despite undoubtedly is build on the basis of immature design reflects concepts copied from the West which took to the Americans many years of development so basically they are riding on foreign knowledge, how they got their knowledge well it is a matter of debate but the americans said the F-35 technology was passed illegally to China, but in reality, F-35 is a F-105 type aircraft and China has copied an aircraft not an ideal fighter despite they tried to make it more advanced they cobbled ideas already proven in Russia and the USA, the aircraft is impressive no doubt, but still lack originality and it is obvious they are riding the american school of aeronautics

You have no Proof that J-20 copied tech from F-35 but inspired more Russian/Soviet tech of MIG-1.44 then F-35, are you talking about China don't have research/development facilities to conduct latest aerodynamics research, and last China is relatively new for designing jets from scratch and as for C-919 same goes to Boeing 787 avionics/body parts from Japan/EU, Russia/USA had lots of experience to design jets from scratch since ww2, China achieved that capability much later 80/90s @Su33KUB

 

[serenity]

God these people are so stupid. Learn some science please. So because I never done algebra before I learn it, therefore I can never understand it and go beyond the topic. So too, China never developed 5th generation fighter, therefore any 5th generation fighter China builds must be given or stolen in parts or entirely. That is laughable. They must convince themselves J-20 is either 1 of many possibilities. That 1. It is copied. 2. It is done by foreign engineers and as long as there is even one mention of spying or an engineer passing any document, it must mean J-20 is done completely through this spying or the pieces of paper sold by that engineer. NEvermind the evidence and don't examine it. 3. It is only a shell fighter and really has zero ability and Indian radar of Su-30mki can easily detect J-20 in stealth mode at more than 100km away.

The reality is China took very close look at F-22 and F-35 certainly. And CAC engineers asked themselves why F-35 and F-22 use this and use that. Examine, develop, test, re-do. Until J-20 is reached and lessons are learned. It is actually possible to learn and develop on your own. Believe me J-20 is just what is visible. Aerodynamics is too easy to China now. Difficult parts are material, engines, and software for controlling the flight of such complicated aerodynamics and software for information processing. These are much harder than modelling shapes that can achieve certain stealth or flight performance purposes. So many great wind tunnels and supercomputers to process models and data to speed up the whole process. There are some crazy designs that are not shown but whatever in some years some will be leaked and they are testing now. For a hint, PLAAF has J-20 drone wingman in testing with quite a new shape. Help yourself sleep better by believing Chinese are too stupid and can only steal. On one hand you tell the world that and on other hand you worry and you make us the villain of the story.

Believe me we working on J-20 for a LONG LONG time as well. The model changed several times and incorporated some US design ideas like how we position weapon bays, canopy piece and design for radar reflection and energy absorption by material type. In that way there are certainly many ways we copy US origin ideas like Soviets and Russians and Japanese, and Koreans, and Turkish now copy. Why do you think KFX, TFX, and Japanese 5th generation concept drawings and models all look more like F-22/F-35 than J-20? Even Su-57 look more closer to F-22 because of its layout. J-20 is a product of 2000s Chinese abilities. When in few years you see leaks of "new" Chinese UAV and fighter/ bomber, everyone will again say wow it took them no time to do this and all of a sudden they appear. Must be stolen or photocopied. Reality is these things started developing 20 years ago and we didn't email everyone our progress. They are testing now and many are ready. We spy on others, others spy on us and they already know a lot for sure. But I'm certain US black projects are the same and they already have many finished products not shown to world.

Back then, F-22 and F-35 images certainly were used to give ideas like Gambit said. There is 99.99% of work to be done left not like some say at that stage. If half the work is already done, let's see one other country outside of China and Russia that can produce a working fighter that even looks like F-22/F-35 let alone one that can fight with some substance.

 

[Dai Toruko]

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/soc...hina-talks-sale-jet-engine-technology-germany

What happened to German engineering?

 

[yantong1980]

Well, not to interfere, guys, this thread need some 'positive' progress, so my suggestion just leave some poster with their delusion, whatever their 'sources', which I believe it's non-Chinese sources made by foreign reporters with their 'mysterious' unknown 'experts'. Debating this peoples lead to nowhere IMHO.

 

[kungfugymnast]

Yeah, thanks for the wall of irrelevant trivia and usless opinions, that never once explained how a single Indian who never had longerterm or regular contact with China suddenly turned into multiple hired B2 engineers and how a cruise missle nozzle (allegedly) designed with some Indian subcontractors aid turned into a J20 stealth fighter co-engineered by those hired foreigners and his (allegedly) multiple (allegedly) military (alleged) sources turned into a single unrelated generic yellow press article the second people made those pesky demands to substantiate his claims with proof, to not broaden my "simplistic view" at all.


Not the most genius reply to put right after the sentence calling bullshit on what you "said". And as said and explained you are left with zero not 1.

If you're so smart and to you, any content listed on websites only considered facts, care to explain how to operate J10C, J20, J16, J11D radar to scan for target and track detected target? How do you switch air to air or air to ground mode? Do they have optronic pod and if yes, do they come with camera view and how do you designate target? If there's incoming missile, how do you use the RWR? I'll wait for your reply, if you failed to provide the details, it proves you're source website is useless nothing more than just general news.

Gambit could explain to me on the fighters he flown back then yet no link to any website being provided.

 

[Globenim]

If you're so smart and to you, any content listed on websites only considered facts, care to explain how to operate J10C, J20, J16, J11D radar to scan for target and track detected target? How do you switch air to air or air to ground mode? Do they have optronic pod and if yes, do they come with camera view and how do you designate target? If there's incoming missile, how do you use the RWR? I'll wait for your reply, if you failed to provide the details, it proves you're source website is useless nothing more than just general news.

Gambit could explain to me on the fighters he flown back then yet no link to any website being provided.

First, get off you imaginary high horse and stop projecting your smartass attitude every time you trolls get caught talking condensed bullshit, that can rarely even pass an undergrad tier reasoning check. Now, once again care to explain what your second completely irrelevant tantrum and circlejerking has to do with the posts you are replying to? What do you even mean with "you are source website is useless". I am on the team asking for a source. You are on the team not providing it. I can't tell if its just bad English or absolute nonsense you are posting. Or are you already back to the usual deflecting routine?

Your troll buddy made the claims. Your troll buddy stumbled over his lies when asked for evidence. Your troll buddy got called out trying to pass off a completely unrelated story to back up his claims Your troll buddy is the one struggling with lame excuses that his dog ate his homework and all sources and all references to his sources happen to be deleted. You got caught guzzling just loads of irrelevant bullshit just for the sake of talking back and trying to wiggle away from a lost case.

You absolute nobodies with zero credence are not in any position to demand people to proof themself to you either way, no matter how much you fellate each other. Talk crap and you get called out. Thats all you get for for your new load of bullshit. Don't get all flustered when people cant be bothered to play along with your farce.

Back to square one. Where is the proof for his J20 engineer claims? As long as your circlejerk fails to provide any details everyone can safely assume you guys were just talking from your asses to construe a false but convenient "big picture" again.

I'll wait.