Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Sasquatch]

Last one ^^^^

 

[Martian2]

I have looked at the pictures and videos of all three T-50/Pak-Fa planes. All three still have exposed metal engine pods. These planes are not stealthy.

Those gigantic metal engine pods will provide a huge radar reflection for any emitting radar above or below the horizontal plane of the T-50/Pak-Fa.

I've waited two years to see major design changes on the T-50/Pak-Fa. To date, I haven't seen any. When the T-50/Pak-Fa is rolled out in 2015-2016, it will still be a non-stealthy plane.

The T-50/Pak-Fa has exposed non-stealthy metal engine pods like the Su-30.

----------

Third PAK FA Prototype Flies: key.Aero, Military Aviation

"Third PAK FA Prototype Flies
Dave Allport - 23-Nov-2011

The third prototype of the new Russian fifth-generation PAK FA fighter made its maiden flight from Komsomolsk-on-Amur on November 22.

The third prototype PAK FA takes off from Komsomolsk-on-Amur on November 22, 2011, for its maiden flight. (Credit: Sukhoi)

MAKING ITS maiden flight from Komsomolsk-on-Amur on November 22 was the third prototype of the Sukhoi T-50/PAK FA fifth-generation fighter. The aircraft, flown by test pilot Sergey Bogdan, was airborne for just over an hour before landing back at the KNAAPO factory airfield.

The flight was deemed a success, with all tests of stability and evaluation of engine performance proceeding as planned. The pilot reported reliable operation of all systems and components.

Maiden flight of the first prototype took place on January 29, 2010, also at Komsomolsk-on-Amur, followed by the second aircraft on March 3, 2011. Both prototypes made their public debut at the MAKS 2011 International Aviation and Space Salon in Zhukovsky, Moscow. The aircraft have now completed more than 100 test flights."

 

[Martian2]

Why is a J-20 larger than a F-22? Unique recallable thermonuclear strike capability.

The J-20 Mighty Dragon was most likely designed with thermonuclear strike capability as a cornerstone.

Why is the J-20 Mighty Dragon larger than a F-22 Raptor? The answer should be obvious. The smaller F-22 Raptor is designed strictly as an air-dominance fighter. The larger J-20 is designed as a multi-role air-dominance and strike fighter.

The F-22 has the simple job of gaining air-superiority over an airspace. The J-20 has a more versatile function. The J-20 is designed to challenge the F-22 for control of an airspace. In addition, I believe the J-20 serves the purpose of a stealthy air-to-surface strike fighter.

The J-20 provides the CCP with the unique capability of a stealthy recallable thermonuclear weapon platform. If the CCP chooses, it can send out stealthy J-20s with W-88 class thermonuclear warheads to eliminate all major enemy bases within its range.

The J-20 is a nightmare weapon for enemies of China. The J-20 is a piloted supercruising maneuverable stealth fighter capable of carrying two W-88 class thermonuclear warheads with 475 kilotons each.

The stealthy J-20 is a superb first-strike weapon. The J-20 greatly complicates the planning of any potential adversary of China. Large enemy military bases can be eliminated in the blink of an eye. The J-20 puts the pressure on the adversary to detect and defend against all J-20 fighters.

Missile defense systems are useless against a stealthy J-20 that literally drops a 475-kiloton thermonuclear warhead right on top of your base.

The argument that the J-20 was intentionally designed to be larger than the F-22 due to inferior engine technology never made any sense. China had planned to match F-22 engine performance in the future. It would not have mattered if the J-20 (with currently less-powerful engines) cruised at a slower speed or did not supercruise at all for now.

If it was intended to be an air-dominance fighter, the J-20 should have been roughly the size of a F-22. Future J-20 engine upgrades were part of the plan.

Instead, the J-20 was intentionally designed to be significantly larger than the F-22. The J-20 has subsumed the role of a Q-5A thermonuclear-capable aircraft. The Q-5A with a thermonuclear payload is not currently survivable in enemy airspace. However, the J-20 is designed specifically to penetrate enemy defenses and fulfill the role of a stealthy thermonuclear-armed Q-5A (see citation below).

----------

China's Q-5A attack aircraft dropped an one megaton thermonuclear warhead in 1972

A Nanchang Q-5A attack aircraft dropped a one megaton KB-1 thermonuclear warhead in 1972.

Chinese Nuclear Test "CHIC-12" - YouTube
"This is a short video of the 12th Chinese nuclear weapons test. This was a test of the [one megaton] KB-1 thermonuclear warhead dropped from a Qiang-5 attack aircraft."

----------

We have previously examined China's thermonuclear weapon delivery vehicles.

1. DF-31A ICBM from silos or a road-mobile TEL (transporter, erector, launcher)

2. JL-2 SLBM from Type 094 Jin-class nuclear ballistic missile submarine (SSBN)

3. CJ-10A nuclear-capable ALCM (air-launched cruise missile) with 2,000 to 2,200km range from a H-6K bomber, which can carry six CJ-10A ALCMs at a time.

4. A Nanchang Q-5A attack aircraft with a one megaton KB-1 thermonuclear payload. Using American criterion, a one megaton warhead is classified as a "city-buster."

5. DH-10 nuclear-capable LACM (land-attack cruise missile) with over 4,000km range

DH-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"According to Jane's, the DH-10 is a second-generation land-attack cruise missile (LACM), integrated inertial navigation system, GPS, terrain contour mapping system, and digital scene-matching terminal-homing system.[3] The missile is estimated to have a circular error probable (CEP) of 10 meters. In 2008, a Pentagon report estimated the range of the DH-10 as over 4,000 km and that from 50 to 250 missiles had been deployed.[1]
...
Some sources predicted that the first operational deployment of Chinese indigenous LACM took place in 2004~2005. The PLA Second Artillery Corps (Strategic Missile Force) has formed a Cruise Missile Brigade based at Jianshui, Yunnan Province in southern China."

DH-10 nuclear-capable LACM with over 4,000km range

 

[marshall]

I have looked at the pictures and videos of all three T-50/Pak-Fa planes. All three still have exposed metal engine pods. These planes are not stealthy.

Those gigantic metal engine pods will provide a huge radar reflection for any emitting radar above or below the horizontal plane of the T-50/Pak-Fa.

The compressor blades are still exposed the same way? Not good for the RCS and I doubt Russia has some as yet unknown super stealthy radar absorbent material/paint/whatever.

 

[marshall]

Why is a J-20 larger than a F-22? Unique recallable thermonuclear strike capability.

The J-20 Mighty Dragon was most likely designed with thermonuclear strike capability as a cornerstone.

Why is the J-20 Mighty Dragon larger than a F-22 Raptor? The answer should be obvious. The smaller F-22 Raptor is designed strictly as an air-dominance fighter. The larger J-20 is designed as a multi-role air-dominance and strike fighter.

3. CJ-10A nuclear-capable ALCM (air-launched cruise missile) with 2,000 to 2,200km range from a H-6K bomber, which can carry six CJ-10A ALCMs at a time.

5. DH-10 nuclear-capable LACM (land-attack cruise missile) with over 4,000km range

I think these cruise missiles are too big to fit in the internal bays of the J-20 and I don't think they are stealthy either. If China were to ever need to retaliate against an unprovoked American nuclear 1st strike with these missiles, they would have to sling under a bomber.

Now, if you're talking about the T-50, it is possible if Sukhoi had a customized weapon bay where the bays between the engines were combined into a single super long weapon bay. Then you could even fit a long-range anti-ship missile in there.

 

[pakje]

I think these cruise missiles are too big to fit in the internal bays of the J-20 and I don't think they are stealthy either. If China were to ever need to retaliate against an unprovoked American nuclear 1st strike with these missiles, they would have to sling under a bomber.

Now, if you're talking about the T-50, it is possible if Sukhoi had a customized weapon bay where the bays between the engines were combined into a single super long weapon bay. Then you could even fit a long-range anti-ship missile in there.

I don't think he meant placing cruising missiles in the weapon bays, just the warhead itself.

 

[amalakas]

The compressor blades are still exposed the same way? Not good for the RCS and I doubt Russia has some as yet unknown super stealthy radar absorbent material/paint/whatever.

Read the ITAE paper on RAM.Stealthy Sukhois

 

[Martian2]

My annual review of T-50/Pak-Fa progress or lack thereof

Two years have passed since the January 2010 unveiling of the T-50/Pak-Fa. Let's look at the stealth design issues that remain.

----------

By the way, none of the Russian T-50/Pak-Fa problems exists on the Chinese J-20 Mighty Dragon stealth fighter.

Terrific J-20 Mighty Dragon close-up photographs

J-20 taxiing

Another day of tests

[Note: Thank you to Hu Songshan and J-20 Mighty Dragon Continue Flight Testing in February 2012 ~ Chinese Military Review]

 

[ptldM3]

I have looked at the pictures and videos of all three T-50/Pak-Fa planes. All three still have exposed metal engine pods. These planes are not stealthy.

Those gigantic metal engine pods will provide a huge radar reflection for any emitting radar above or below the horizontal plane of the T-50/Pak-Fa.

I've waited two years to see major design changes on the T-50/Pak-Fa. To date, I haven't seen any. When the T-50/Pak-Fa is rolled out in 2015-2016, it will still be a non-stealthy plane.

The T-50/Pak-Fa has exposed non-stealthy metal engine pods like the Su-30.

----------

Third PAK FA Prototype Flies: key.Aero, Military Aviation

"Third PAK FA Prototype Flies
Dave Allport - 23-Nov-2011

The third prototype of the new Russian fifth-generation PAK FA fighter made its maiden flight from Komsomolsk-on-Amur on November 22.

The third prototype PAK FA takes off from Komsomolsk-on-Amur on November 22, 2011, for its maiden flight. (Credit: Sukhoi)

MAKING ITS maiden flight from Komsomolsk-on-Amur on November 22 was the third prototype of the Sukhoi T-50/PAK FA fifth-generation fighter. The aircraft, flown by test pilot Sergey Bogdan, was airborne for just over an hour before landing back at the KNAAPO factory airfield.

The flight was deemed a success, with all tests of stability and evaluation of engine performance proceeding as planned. The pilot reported reliable operation of all systems and components.

Maiden flight of the first prototype took place on January 29, 2010, also at Komsomolsk-on-Amur, followed by the second aircraft on March 3, 2011. Both prototypes made their public debut at the MAKS 2011 International Aviation and Space Salon in Zhukovsky, Moscow. The aircraft have now completed more than 100 test flights."

The thread was going well and on topic and out of the blue i come stumble upon this crap and ironically you are the same guy that has, on multiple occasions, occused me, Gambit, and amalakas of trolling. It’s very clear that you have some deeply rooted sociological issues and an unhealthy obsession with the pak-fa, who else devotes as much time as you in posting pages upon pages of nonsense in multiple forums. I can imagine you in your parent’s basement with dark circles under your eyes.

I am also curious as to why the ‘gaps’ between the pak-fa’s intake and fuselage are ‘poor for stealth’ when the F-22 has the same ‘gaps’ both are angled down and outwards. Ironically you claimed this not to be a problem for the F-22.

Ladies and gentlemen this is also the guys that claimed that the Chinese made WZ-10 was stealthy even though it had a vertical stab, pylons, a large spherical FLIR, gun, and countless protrusions.

The amount of bias and double standards from you is rediculous. You can't even remeber what you have stated in the past and often times it comes back to bite you. Chinese aircraft are special they can have vertical stabs and fixed landing gear and still be stealthy but the pak-fa is none stealthy crap.

 

[j20blackdragon]

I am also curious as to why the ‘gaps’ between the pak-fa’s intake and fuselage are ‘poor for stealth’ when the F-22 has the same ‘gaps’ both are angled down and outwards. Ironically you claimed this not to be a problem for the F-22.

The gaps divert boundary layer air.

DSI fixes that problem.

 

[marshall]

I don't think he meant placing cruising missiles in the weapon bays, just the warhead itself.

I just assumed the warheads would be mounted on missiles within the internal weapon bays due to the required range to reach distant targets. There is some speculation that the J-20 can take the role of a small stealth bomber but if that is in the works, I highly doubt its primary purpose is as a nuclear delivery platform. It would make more sense to use it to penetrate heavy defenses to attack high value targets from standoff range like AWACs, aircraft carriers, Aegis equipped ships, runways, etc. Not sure if China has any anti-ship missiles small enough to fit in those internal weapon bays and still retain a half decent range but this would make alot more sense.

 

[marshall]

Read the ITAE paper on RAM.Stealthy Sukhois

An effective RAM for the compressor blades is the last thing that I expected could solve this problem. I just assumed it would have to be either some sort of as yet non-existent RAM composite, but definitely not simply a RAM paint, especially on compressor blades with the stresses. Has there been any further news on the required maintenance of this RAM coating?

Concerning the metallic canopy, I was pretty sure they have plans to eventually coat it between polycarbonate. This is one of the easier things to do but the fact that they still haven't incorporated it leads me to believe they are behind schedule. When the T-50 had first flight, most people assumed the traditional metal frame + rivets were to speed up development and testing. It took them almost a full year before the 2nd test flight and it's now into the 3rd prototype with no significant changes to the airframe build. Unless the RAM that ITAE is talking about can simply be applied to an airframe to witness F-22 like LO stealth performance, they are not going to be ready by 2015.

 

[Martian2]

Russian Embassy in India official website states 0.5m2 RCS for T-50/Pak-Fa

India, Russia close to pact on next generation fighter

 

[marshall]

Russian Embassy in India official website states 0.5m2 RCS for T-50/Pak-Fa

I'd be skeptical of this 0.5sq/m2 claim until the official's credentials were verified. There's no way the Russians will not evolve the T-50 to a true LO stealth aircraft unless they really are going to do nothing about the blades.

 

[amalakas]

An effective RAM for the compressor blades is the last thing that I expected could solve this problem. I just assumed it would have to be either some sort of as yet non-existent RAM composite, but definitely not simply a RAM paint, especially on compressor blades with the stresses. Has there been any further news on the required maintenance of this RAM coating?

Concerning the metallic canopy, I was pretty sure they have plans to eventually coat it between polycarbonate. This is one of the easier things to do but the fact that they still haven't incorporated it leads me to believe they are behind schedule. When the T-50 had first flight, most people assumed the traditional metal frame + rivets were to speed up development and testing. It took them almost a full year before the 2nd test flight and it's now into the 3rd prototype with no significant changes to the airframe build. Unless the RAM that ITAE is talking about can simply be applied to an airframe to witness F-22 like LO stealth performance, they are not going to be ready by 2015.

It just goes to show that there are more solutions to a problem than the ones that we have in mind.

I am not claiming that this RAM coating (and not paint) is the panacea for the RCS reduction problem. All I am saying is that sometimes people will take different roots to an equally valid solution.

I too am concerned about some aspects of the T-50. As an example the framed canopy doesn't concern me in terms of RCS, it concerns me in terms of visibility. A hunter killer should have excellent view and not obstructions.