Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[gambit]

I am making no judgments here, just saying that the J-20's RCS and the F-22's should be comparable, due to similar wing shaping and many of the same design features. Perhaps the J-20 has a larger RCS. Perhaps not.

This is what I have been trying to say all this time: Wait.

The J-20 is too early. If the aircraft turned out to be as 'stealthy' as the F-22 within a couple of percentage points, I have no problems calling it an F-22 equivalent. People should realize that the reason why the aviation world give US the latitude they did with the F-22 is because we have a record: F-117 and B-2.

China has no such record. Not even close. So if the aviation world, professional and lay, are skeptical of any claim by any fanboy, we have good cause to do so: No record.

I'm just going to throw out a wild guess at an upper bound. The J-20's RCS is smaller than a clean EF-2000. Both planes have canards and 2 engines, but the J-20 at the very least has radar absorbing paint. Since the J-20 has internal weapons bays, putting weapons in it won't make its RCS bigger than the EF-2000. Do you dispute this?

Upon what foundation did you make that guess?

 

[Martian2]

J-20 Mighty Dragon is a "genuine Very Low Observable design" except for round engine nozzles, which can be fixed.

The Chengdu J-20: Peace in Our Time?

"This study has therefore established through Physical Optics simulation across nine radio-frequency bands, that no fundamental obstacles exist in the shaping design of the J-20 prototype precluding its development into a genuine Very Low Observable design.

Above: L-band RCS, below X-band RCS head on, both in PCSR format (M.J. Pelosi).

Engineers and Scientists who work in ‘stealth’ (AKA ‘Low Observable&#8217 designs have a way for explaining it to lay people: ‘Stealth’ is achieved by Shaping, Shaping, Shaping and Materials (Denys Overholser).

The F-22A is clearly well shaped for low observability above about 500 MHz, and from all important aspects. The J-20 has observed the ‘Shaping, Shaping, Shaping’ imperative, except for the axisymmetric nozzles, and some curvature of the sides that smears a strong, but very narrow specular return into something of a more observable fan. The X-35 mostly observed the ‘Shaping, Shaping, Shaping’ rule, but since then, to quote a colleague, ‘hideous lumps, bumps, humps and warts’ have appeared on the JSF to disrupt the shaping imperative, forcing excessive reliance on materials, which are at the rear-end of the path to ‘Low Observability’.

While discussing ‘rear-ends’, both the F-35 and the J-20 have large signature contributions from their jet nozzles. However, the difference is much like the proverbial ‘Ham Omelette’: the F-35 Pig is committed, but the J-20 Chicken is a participant. If the Chinese decide that rear sector Low Observability is tactically and strategically important, they are at the design stage where they can copy the F-22A nozzle design for the production configuration of the J-20."

[Note: Thank you to HouShanghai and 蓝胖 for the picture.]

 

[gambit]

This study has therefore established through Physical Optics simulation across nine radio-frequency bands, that no fundamental obstacles exist in the shaping design of the J-20 prototype precluding its development into a genuine Very Low Observable design.

Flooding the discussion with debunked crap is not going to get you anywhere...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...craft-updates-discussions-21.html#post1929505
http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...craft-updates-discussions-23.html#post1934472
http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...craft-updates-discussions-24.html#post1937502
http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...craft-updates-discussions-26.html#post1942400
http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...craft-updates-discussions-27.html#post1945087

Things must be pretty dead over at your new playground.

 

[amalakas]

the CAC guy says it is radar absorbing paint, do you have any problem with that?

Yes I do, since you put it this way, for all you know I could be a CAC guy and he may be full of BS .. how do you know .

the internet is full of circumstantial evidence of things....

 

[Martian2]

Flooding the discussion with debunked crap is not going to get you anywhere...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...craft-updates-discussions-21.html#post1929505
http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...craft-updates-discussions-23.html#post1934472
http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...craft-updates-discussions-24.html#post1937502
http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...craft-updates-discussions-26.html#post1942400
http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...craft-updates-discussions-27.html#post1945087

Things must be pretty dead over at your new playground.

I would appreciate it if you would stop trash talking. You have made over ten posts in the last couple of days. I'm just trying to get a few posts to inform readers.

Why don't you go start your own anti-China J-20 thread? If not, I ask the moderators for permission to start my own J-20 Frequently Asked Questions thread that would specifically exclude Gambit, PtldM3, and Amalakas. I'm tired of these trolls.

Thank you for considering my request. I have a lot more calculations and diagrams to post, but it can't be done with the constant trash-talk that accompanies one of my posts.

The alternative is that I will stop posting in this thread soon and all of you can wait years until Gambit's "it's too soon to tell" approach yields absolutely zero analysis.

My approach is to provide readers with the best approximations possible. Whether you agree with Australia Air Power's nine radar frequency band simulation or not, I believe readers have the right to be made aware of the information and decide for themselves.

COMPLAINT: Gambit is flooding this thread with his trash talk and repetitive posts. Post #1278 is exactly identical to his post #1223 twelve hours ago at 10:33 AM TODAY!

That looks like trolling to me. Why is he making the exact same point within twelve hours? Also, look at the mountain of his posts in the last twelve hours. Gambit has made 20 posts in the last 24 hours in this thread! I just finished counting. He just mostly keeps trash talking without offering new insights. I can't get a word in here!

 

[gambit]

I would appreciate it if you would stop trash talking. You have made over ten posts in the last couple of days. I'm just trying to get a few posts to inform readers. Why don't you go start your own anti-China J-20 thread? If not, I ask the moderators for permission to start my own J-20 Frequently Asked Questions thread that would specifically exclude Gambit, PtldM3, and Amalakas. I'm tired of these trolls.

So am I. What are you afraid of? Reality?

 

[gambit]

My approach is to provide readers with the best approximation possible. Whether you agree with Australia Air Power's nine radar frequency band simulation or not, I believe readers have the right to be made aware of the information and decide for themselves.

And my approach is to provide the readers with counterpoints, and using APA's own weaknesses to boot.

The alternative is that I will stop posting in this thread soon and all of you can wait years until Gambit's "it's too soon to tell" approach yields absolutely zero analysis.

You made that threat before and retreated to your new playground. It must be pretty dead with only the racist threads being active and turned the place into a Chinese version of stormfront so you returned here.

COMPLAINT: Gambit is flooding this thread with his trash talk and repetitive posts. Post #1278 is exactly identical to his post #1233 twelve hours ago. That looks like trolling to me. Why is he making the exact same point within twelve hours. Also, look at the mountain of his posts in the last twelve hours. He just mostly keeps trash talking without offering new insights. I can't get a word in here!

And your reposting of APA's debunked crap is what...???

 

[marshall]

Yes I do, since you put it this way, for all you know I could be a CAC guy and he may be full of BS .. how do you know .

the internet is full of circumstantial evidence of things....

Most of those predictions from so called CAC big wigs are BSers. I've lost count at the number of failed predictions announced as breaking news from the same small handful of so-called China nationalists. The best sources are almost always from regular military analysts from the general public who are simply able to put 2 and 2 together logically.

 

[Pfpilot]

@Gambit

How come the Russians and Chinese, as well as the f-35 have no stealthy nozzles for a lack of a better term? Shouldn't the exposed nozzles be a big detriment to any low observability aircraft? It doesn't make sense to my uninformed mind to go through the trouble of building expensive aircraft for the sole purpose to go undetected and leave engine nozzle unattended...are there any positives to leaving them unmasked?

 

[gambit]

@Gambit

How come the Russians and Chinese, as well as the f-35 have no stealthy nozzles for a lack of a better term? Shouldn't the exposed nozzles be a big detriment to any low observability aircraft? It doesn't make sense to my uninformed mind to go through the trouble of building expensive aircraft for the sole purpose to go undetected and leave engine nozzle unattended...are there any positives to leaving them unmasked?

Try these...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...craft-updates-discussions-71.html#post2392632
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/20908-rcs-different-fighters-8.html#post2111258

 

[gambit]

@Gambit

How come the Russians and Chinese, as well as the f-35 have no stealthy nozzles for a lack of a better term? Shouldn't the exposed nozzles be a big detriment to any low observability aircraft? It doesn't make sense to my uninformed mind to go through the trouble of building expensive aircraft for the sole purpose to go undetected and leave engine nozzle unattended...are there any positives to leaving them unmasked?

Even for the F-22, if the seeking radar is looking straight up his @$$, nothing than active cancellation can hide the engines.

 

[gambit]

Pooooooop!

Quick...!!! Some Chinese member 'Thank' him for this 'useful' post...

 

[marshall]

Why don't you go start your own anti-China J-20 thread? If not, I ask the moderators for permission to start my own J-20 Frequently Asked Questions thread that would specifically exclude Gambit, PtldM3, and Amalakas. I'm tired of these trolls.

In defense of PtldM3 and Amalakas, I do not agree that they are trolls and actually agree with the majority of what they say.

That looks like trolling to me. Why is he making the exact same point within twelve hours? Also, look at the mountain of his posts in the last twelve hours. He just mostly keeps trash talking without offering new insights. I can't get a word in here!

I'm sure everybody here realized a long time ago that Gambit has a chip on his shoulder and a major bone to pick with everything China related. Not long ago, he carried on in a debate with me on various subjects he couldn't definitively back up and all he did was repeat the same things over and over while repeatedly trying to derail the context of the original debate with red herrings and other semi-related nonsense. This carried on and on until our debate stretched into over 20 PAGES per message.
What does that tell you???

Consider this along with the fact that this guy admitted to hanging out at STORMFRONT, stated 1 of the fundamental strategies of Stormfront, something that few people know of other than those who are more than curious browsers of Stormfront and who then went on to quote links from AMREN, a known white supremacist website similar to Stormfront as proof of some of his debates, on multiple occasions. To make this even more galling, the guy has the nerve to accuse the 1.4 billion Chinese of racism when individual Internet morons, who claim they are Chinese, say things that can be construed as prejudiced. I mean really, get a grip. This is a debate forum and as long as somebody isn't blatantly breaking the rules, which he is not, then he has every right to pursue his agenda just as you have the right to pursue yours.

 

[rcrmj]

Yes I do, since you put it this way, for all you know I could be a CAC guy and he may be full of BS .. how do you know .

the internet is full of circumstantial evidence of things....

first you have next to zero knowledge of Chinese language, second you have zero knowledge of of which sources we chinese get we consider it as reliable, thirdly Chinese anuual '科研表彰大会' wont give out money and prize for nothing kid.

one lead egnieer were given a heavy prize for developing stealth coating, but so far no big prizes given out for turbofan engine (wws-15) yet, so thats why on all Chinese defense and aviation tech forums there are still big debates on ws-15 but no one doubts the coating. but ignorant and stereotyped people like you will always have those 'fake' moon landing conspiracies

 

[gambit]

I'm sure everybody here realized a long time ago that Gambit has a chip on his shoulder...

I give the chip only when it is earned. As for the rest, especially AMREN, it was to show everyone that racists recognize each other, regardless of skin color.