Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[ChineseTiger1986]

No, these are clearly not WS-10; IMO these are even more clearly AL-31FN of some sort, even if I don't know how old are these images. But what puzzles me , it does not look like the factory in Russia.

Because these are a group of Chinese assembly workers working on the Chinese turbofan engines for the J-20.

This is the real AL-31F engine, clearly a different engine from the J-20 engine.

@UKBengali @pakistanipower

The Russian engines, no matter it is the ordinary AL-31 or the bulk up 117S, its nozzle is always bending down when being uninstalled from the aircraft.

While the J-20 engine is clearly not, and its nozzle only shows a slight similarity with the nozzle of the AL-31, that's all.

 

[Pepsi Cola]

Because these are a group of Chinese assembly workers working on the Chinese turbofan engines for the J-20.

This is the real AL-31F engine, clearly a different engine from the J-20 engine.

View attachment 362181


@UKBengali @pakistanipower

The Russian engines, no matter it is the ordinary AL-31 or the bulk up 117S, its nozzle is always bending down when being uninstalled from the aircraft.

While the J-20 engine is clearly not, and its nozzle only shows a slight similarity with the nozzle of the AL-31, that's all.

View attachment 362187

View attachment 362188

Now that you mentioned it, the ones behind are bent down, but the J-20 engine is clearly idling in a different manner. This is big.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Now that you mentioned it, the ones behind are bent down, but the J-20 engine is clearly idling in a different manner. This is big.

Just look at the PAK FA's engines, when it is turning off, its nozzle is also bending down.

While the J-20 engine's nozzle has never been bending down when it is turning off.

Only the early J-20 engines show more similarities with the AL-31, only most likely that China has implemented some technological input from the AL-31 on the earlier J-20 engines, but the later J-20 engines have showed less similarities with the AL-31.

The later J-20 engines is showing more similarities with the WS-10, because more input is from there. And I guess the final version of the WS-15 will barely show any resemblance from either AL-31 or WS-10.

 

[Asoka]

Mr @Asok J-20 may be using higher thrust versions WS-10X or AL-31FN3, Just like GE F-110 GE 129 with a thrust of 29,400 lbs upgraded to F-110 GE 132 with a thrust of 32,500 lbs, with a thrust of 35,000, 36,000 lbs from highly upgraded and higher thrust versions of WS-10X or AL-31FN3 J-20 can easily super-cruise without afterburner

Here is the latest information about the Thrust:

The rule of evidence apply to you too. Show me a combat loaded plane (J-11, J-15,J-16, Su-27, Su-30) which installed WS-10X or AL-31FN (with Max Thrust 120-140kN) can "easily" do Supersonic Cruise, then I can believe J-20 can also "easily" do supersonic Cruise with these older engines. Otherwise, the charge of writing "groundless" speculation will be leveled at you.

I am talking a combat loaded plane with a full tank of gas, not an empty plane with half tank of gas. We are not talking about just going to supersonic speed here. We are talking about a fully loaded plane cruising at Supersonic Speed near 1.5M for extended period of time, like 30 minutes or more. There are plenty of planes equiped with WS-10X or AL-31FN, but I have never heard of any Chinese plane can do supersonic cruise, except J-20.

"Supercruise is sustained supersonic flight of a supersonic aircraft with a useful cargo, passenger, or weapons load performed efficiently, which typically precludes the use of highly inefficient afterburners (reheat)." --Wikipedia

 

[Deino]

....
The Russian engines, no matter it is the ordinary AL-31 or the bulk up 117S, its nozzle is always bending down when being uninstalled from the aircraft.
...

No, the J-10's engine is not "bending" down simply since it is not a TVC-nozzle which is naturally "bending" down" when the oil-pressure is gone.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

No, the J-10's engine is not "bending" down simply since it is not a TVC-nozzle which is naturally "bending" down" when the oil-pressure is gone.

Again, the chance of the J-20 being powered by those ordinary AL-31 is practically null.

While the J-20 engine doesn't resemble any of those super members of the AL-31 family.

 

[j20blackdragon]

It's AL-31FN.

This is probably a maintenance, repair and overhaul facility for various engines. I see more than one type of engine in the picture.

Even India has the ability to overhaul the AL-31FP, producing the majority of the components locally.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...-hal-s-growing-capability-114102300636_1.html

HAL has also partially indigenised the Su-30MKI's giant AL-31FP engines, which are built in Koraput, Odisha. Fifty-three per cent of the engine by cost has been indigenised, with the remaining 47 per cent consisting of high-tech composites and special alloys - proprietary secrets that Russia will not part with. Even so, HAL builds 87.7 per cent of the engine's components in India.

China has been overhauling AL-31 for a long time. News report from 2010.
http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2010/07/plaaf-factory-5719.html

WS-10 is in mass production and widely deployed.
http://en.people.cn/n3/2016/0707/c90000-9082920.html

If China wanted to, it can copy the AL-31FN easily. Mixing and matching various locally made components to increase engine life and thrust.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

@Deino @ChineseTiger1986

Friends,

Isn't the engine 'discussion' purely academic excercise now?

What is most fasicnating is the FACT that with J20 Chinese engineers and scientists have made a giant leap forward.

Truly amazing feat of engineering, planning and fabrication this J20.

The reality that the entire infrastructure of fabrication and supply chain went through nothing less than a revolution should be the point of dicussion.

China would have never shown the bird at the airshow had China not been 200% confident of about this bird. And now low rate production is kicking in and soon will move up a notch.

This is great news for Chinese aviation industry evolution. Think about it?

Making a J20 is totally different cattle of fish than producing other Chinese jets... state-of-the-art almost clinical production methods and techniques have been applied here.

So apart from every now and then passionate discussion on the engine theme... should we not be focusing on the theme of J20 and what it means to PLAAF and the Chinese military aviation industry?


Our @Deino is facts-and-verification man..it is Duits Gründlichkeit ....difficult for others to understand...but there is absolutely no harm or ill intention in it. It is just built in factual/rational DNA. Can appear difficult...but intention is truly positive.


Our @ChineseTiger1986 is great source of information and pictures...his passion and pride is very distinctly Chinese sense of Filial Peity (孝順)...which a Western will never be able to understand.


I admire and understand both side/worlds...wish that there be more constructive discussion on my Transformer..i.e J20.

All the best to all..keep bringing good stuff here.

 

[Asoka]

@Deino @ChineseTiger1986

Friends,

Isn't the engine 'discussion' purely academic excercise now?

What is most fasicnating is the FACT that with J20 Chinese engineers and scientists have made a giant leap forward.

Truly amazing feat of engineering, planning and fabrication this J20.

The reality that the entire infrastructure of fabrication and supply chain went through nothing less than a revolution should be the point of dicussion.

China would have never shown the bird at the airshow had China not been 200% confident of about this bird. And now low rate production is kicking in and soon will move up a notch.

This is great news for Chinese aviation industry evolution. Think about it?

Making a J20 is totally different cattle of fish than producing other Chinese jets... state-of-the-art almost clinical production methods and techniques have been applied here.

So apart from every now and then passionate discussion on the engine theme... should we not be focusing on the theme of J20 and what it means to PLAAF and the Chinese military aviation industry?


Our @Deino is facts-and-verification man..it is Duits Gründlichkeit ....difficult for others to understand...but there is absolutely no harm or ill intention in it. It is just built in factual/rational DNA. Can appear difficult...but intention is truly positive.


Our @ChineseTiger1986 is great source of information and pictures...his passion and pride is very distinctly Chinese sense of Filial Peity (孝順)...which a Western will never be able to understand.


I admire and understand both side/worlds...wish that there be more constructive discussion on my Transformer..i.e J20.

All the best to all..keep bringing good stuff here.

"So apart from every now and then passionate discussion on the engine theme... should we not be focusing on the theme of J20 and what it means to PLAAF and the Chinese military aviation industry?"

While J-20's first flight is nearly 20 years later than F-22, and one year later than T-50, the historical, political, diplomatic, stragetic and military implications is hard to over estimated. It marks the first time, in several hundred years, that China has fielded a conventional weapon that is on par with the best in the world.

The fact that there is nothing to stop China from producing 500+ J-20 in the next few years, boggles the minds of western imperialists. It's a dagger to the heart of their sense of deeply ingrained racial superiority.

No wonder instead of using J-20 to hype up the CHINA THREAT as they have done since 1990's and justify their military spending. They choose to knock it down, whenever they open their mouths, or even just ignored it like a big elephant in the room.

When 200+ J-20 is fully operational, the political/diplomatic attitude toward China will be very different.

Any Neocons/Neolibs talk of winning a conventional war with China at its door step or backward will be viewed with ridicules.

And when 800+ J-20 took to the sky, any western/japanese imperialists still want a war with China will be lock up in the mental asylum.

If Donald Trump or anybody else think US can win a war with China, he has missed his chance.

 

[Tiqiu]

via that video: http://www.bilibili.com/video/av4336546/index_4.html

via: http://bbs.meyet.com/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=321328&pid=3760143

... at around 21:40+++

Here is the youtube clips of the same documentary.

This documentary made in 2009 contains lots of archives and the first accounts of the Chinese jet planes and engines designers, so it is credible source.

At 9:54 on the first video, It was confirmed that China's jet engine development would follow the same "copying" path as did by the US and USSR, after the talks of 张健 (head of AVIC Shenyang Engine Design Institute 606) and 刘永泉(chief designer of WS10 at 606).

At 1:58 on the second video, the footage of an arguably AL-31F used while the narratives were talking about the Chinese WS-6 my suggest that WS-6 adopted lots of AL-31F component, which is not unacceptable practice in reverse engineering or copying. At early 2000, 刘大响(the head chief designer of WS-15 at 624) was reportedly stating that he will consider and combine the best parts of other engines into his design.

The WS-6, cancelled after 20 years development staring from 1964 due to the cancelled project of J-9, hes led the development of WS-10 immediately. So it will be no big surprise to see both WS-6 and WS-10 have a black nozzle similar to AL-31F's.

 

[Han Patriot]

It's AL-31FN.

View attachment 362234
View attachment 362235

This is probably a maintenance, repair and overhaul facility for various engines. I see more than one type of engine in the picture.

Even India has the ability to overhaul the AL-31FP, producing the majority of the components locally.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...-hal-s-growing-capability-114102300636_1.html

HAL has also partially indigenised the Su-30MKI's giant AL-31FP engines, which are built in Koraput, Odisha. Fifty-three per cent of the engine by cost has been indigenised, with the remaining 47 per cent consisting of high-tech composites and special alloys - proprietary secrets that Russia will not part with. Even so, HAL builds 87.7 per cent of the engine's components in India.

China has been overhauling AL-31 for a long time. News report from 2010.
http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2010/07/plaaf-factory-5719.html

WS-10 is in mass production and widely deployed.
http://en.people.cn/n3/2016/0707/c90000-9082920.html

If China wanted to, it can copy the AL-31FN easily. Mixing and matching various locally made components to increase engine life and thrust.

Well, can we leave the Indies out, they claim to be indigenous all the time. I guess they can make the casing and some simple components, but the blades? the HP compressor?

Btw, stop speculating what engine J-20 is using, let's assume we are behind and wait for the official news to come out.

You and I know we Chinese are stubborn people. The more you despise us and say we can't do it, the more we will prove you wrong. We have the money, experience and manpower now, only time is the constraint.

 

[Asoka]

The Astonishing Supersonic Maneuverability Difference Between 4th and 5th Generation Fighters.

I have again and again emphasized the importance of Supersonic Cruise and Supersonic Maneuverability to 5th Gen. fighter. Without ability to do Supersonic Cruise, there could be no Supersonic Maneuverability.

Here is the picture that illustrate the astonishing difference between Supersonic Maneuverability of F-15, F-35 and F-22. Supersonic Maneuverability is a measure of how agile of a plane is in Supersonic Speed at various height. Because the air density at different height, the Maneuverability will be greatly affected.

Here is the 5G Maneuver Envelope. The Maximum Speed of a plane able to maneuver at 5G at various height.

As we can see, F-15, one of the most agile 4th gen. fighter in the world, could only pull a 5G Maneuver at Mach 0.8 at sea level, and at 32,000 ft, only Mach 0.7. No Supersonic Maneuverability at 5G over Mach 0.8. Basically, it could only fly pretty much in a straight line with a huge turn radius at higher speed.

Whereas, F-22 could pull 5G at nearly Mach 2 at the Maximum altitude of 65,000ft. At sea level, it could still able to reach Mach 1.3 while pulling a 5G turn.

Basically, sustained Supersonic Maneuverability is determined by Aerodynamics of the airframe, Power of the engine and structural strength of the airframe.

If you don't have outstanding Aerodynamics design, your air speed will quickly drop below supersonic during high G maneuvers. If you don't have a powerful engine in the first place, you can't do Supersonic Cruise without afterburner. If you turn on your afterburner in order to go supersonic, you will quickly run out of fuel. If your airframe isn't strong enough, your plane will fall apart at high G during Supersonic Maneuvering. If you have a very tough airframe, but a weak engine, you will be overweighted. And if you have a very powerful engine, but overweighted and have a lousy aerodynamics design, you will end up being clubbed like baby seals like F-35.

As if we can see, even the mightily powerful F-15 don't have much Supersonic Maneuverability, it is useless to talk about that for 4th Generation fighters, instead they concentrate on subsonic maneuverability. But Supersonic Maneuverability is such an awesome ability. F-15 and F-16 pilots said whenever F-22 goes into Supersonic, the fight is over. They can't follow it into those Supersonic speed without turning on the afterburner, and if they did, they would run out of fuel in minutes.

The result: The F-15 and F-16 can't out run and can't fight the F-22. They always lost.

So without Supersonic Cruise, there is no way for J-20 to determine its vitally important Supersonic Maneuverability flight envelope at various height and speed.

And you said that's no problem, that could always be determined, later, after WS-15 is ready, and in the mean time, lets put J-20 into LRIP and even mass production?

Lockeed Martin started the production of F-35 way before all tests were done. Ask them how they are doing with F-35.

 

[帅的一匹]

this is gonna be fun

 

[Ultima Thule]

I am talking a combat loaded plane with a full tank of gas, not an empty plane with half tank of gas. We are not talking about just going to supersonic speed here. We are talking about a fully loaded plane cruising at Supersonic Speed near 1.5M for extended period of time, like 30 minutes or more. There are plenty of planes equiped with WS-10X or AL-31FN, but I have never heard of any Chinese plane can do supersonic cruise, except J-20.

In realty Mr Asok no fighter jets can fly with a full tank of gas and with a full combat load, thrust to weight ratio of that particular jet is too low to fly but it can run on the tarmac, at best in war situation fighter jets fuels 3/4th of there gas tanks
and as for fully combat load there not such thing fully combat loaded jet, they armed for specific mission, for example F-15 and Su-27 might carry 10 air to air missiles but restricted to carry 8 air to air missiles for aerodynamic and thrust to weight restrictions
From your above post J-20 can easily super-cruise with your stated 35,000 lbs WS-10G

 

[Tiqiu]

The Astonishing Supersonic Maneuverability Difference Between 4th and 5th Generation Fighters.

I have again and again emphasized the importance of Supersonic Cruise and Supersonic Maneuverability to 5th Gen. fighter. Without ability to do Supersonic Cruise, there could be no Supersonic Maneuverability.

Here is the picture that illustrate the astonishing difference between Supersonic Maneuverability of F-15, F-35 and F-22. Supersonic Maneuverability is a measure of how agile of a plane is in Supersonic Speed at various height. Because the air density at different height, the Maneuverability will be greatly affected.

Here is the 5G Maneuver Envelope. The Maximum Speed of a plane able to maneuver at 5G at various height.

As we can see, F-15, one of the most agile 4th gen. fighter in the world, could only pull a 5G Maneuver at Mach 0.8 at sea level, and at 32,000 ft, only Mach 0.7. No Supersonic Maneuverability at 5G over Mach 0.8. Basically, it could only fly pretty much in a straight line with a huge turn radius at higher speed.

Whereas, F-22 could pull 5G at nearly Mach 2 at the Maximum altitude of 65,000ft. At sea level, it could still able to reach Mach 1.3 while pulling a 5G turn.

Basically, sustained Supersonic Maneuverability is determined by Aerodynamics of the airframe, Power of the engine and structural strength of the airframe.

If you don't have outstanding Aerodynamics design, your air speed will quickly drop below supersonic during high G maneuvers. If you don't have a powerful engine in the first place, you can't do Supersonic Cruise without afterburner. If you turn on your afterburner in order to go supersonic, you will quickly run out of fuel. If your airframe isn't strong enough, your plane will fall apart at high G during Supersonic Maneuvering. If you have a very tough airframe, but a weak engine, you will be overweighted. And if you have a very powerful engine, but overweighted and have a lousy aerodynamics design, you will end up being clubbed like baby seals like F-35.

As if we can see, even the mightily powerful F-15 don't have much Supersonic Maneuverability, it is useless to talk about that for 4th Generation fighters, instead they concentrate on subsonic maneuverability. But Supersonic Maneuverability is such an awesome ability. F-15 and F-16 pilots said whenever F-22 goes into Supersonic, the fight is over. They can't follow it into those Supersonic speed without turning on the afterburner, and if they did, they would run out of fuel in minutes.

The result: The F-15 and F-16 can't out run and can't fight the F-22. They always lost.

So without Supersonic Cruise, there is no way for J-20 to determine its vitally important Supersonic Maneuverability flight envelope at various height and speed.

And you said that's no problem, that could always be determined, later, after WS-15 is ready, and in the mean time, lets put J-20 into LRIP and even mass production?

Lockeed Martin started the production of F-35 way before all tests were done. Ask them how they are doing with F-35.

Well said.

I want to add one more point to the benefit of the 4th generation jets' supercruise ability . When air-to-air missile is launched from the 4th generation jets at supercruise speed, it will have a initial supercrusise speed as well, which makes the non-4th generation targets impossible to escape.

In relation to registering all flight maneuver envelope of the J-20, the use of WS-10B/G at prototype testing stage first and changing to WS-15 at LRIP later on may not cause too much problem as along as the thrust gap is not too large. I think the incremental maneuver envelope resulting from the use of more powerful engine can be added to the envelope of the former's without the need of going it over again from scratch. In fact F22 first used YF119-PW-100L/N Prototype engine rated for 30,000 lbf thrust and later changed to F119-PW-100 Production engine with larger fan and increased bypass ratio (BPR) rated for 35,000 lbf thrust.

Compared to the F-35's more than 7 millions lines of flight control codes in C++, it is said J-20 has 5 millions mainy in Ada plus some C++. Any clues about the pros and cons of the two?