Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Asoka]

I believe the engine used on J-20 currently is hybrid of WS-10 tech and AL-31F with much superior metallurgy. The reason for not disclosing the engine and data might be due to IP right of AL-31F or antagonised the Russian again with IP issue again since there is a Sino Russo alliance going on.

Remember the video I posted abt AVIC chairman talking about WS-10 Taihang engine has a massive issue which the engineer that time believe 下马. Is the only solution for Taihang engine. Surely only design problem will warrant a cease production call.

Lin Zuoming did not disclose much how he overcome the taihang problem. I believe his solution is not fully RE AL-31F but by borrowing some of the proven design of it and implement on Taihang engine to make it work or success. That is why China don't want to talk too much about this new hybrid engine.

"I believe the engine used on J-20 currently is hybrid of WS-10 tech and AL-31F with much superior metallurgy. "
I agreed. The J-20 engine has WS-10 and AL-31FN technology, but the engine core is WS-15. This is an important point to be emphasized.

When the maximum power (>200kN, IMO) of WS-15 is finally revealed, it will be very shocking. F-22's 160kN engine will be completely outclassed by WS-15.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

"I believe the engine used on J-20 currently is hybrid of WS-10 tech and AL-31F with much superior metallurgy. "
I agreed. The J-20 engine has WS-10 and AL-31FN technology, but the engine core is WS-15. This is an important point to be emphasized.

When the maximum power (>200kN, IMO) of WS-15 is finally revealed, it will be very shocking. F-22's 160kN engine will be completely outclassed by WS-15.

Then this does explain why some J-20 engine does look like the AL-31F, but it is much more powerful.

And the current J-20 engine doesn't show any outer characteristics of the AL-31F.

 

[Beast]

Totally agreed. But some still do not want to accept it.

If you meant to say that some of us will not want to accept your final verdict that J-20 is powered by AL-31FN based on your digital graphic analyst skills on the images of the engines used by J-20 sourced only from the Chinese internet sites, then surly you can count me as some of them.

It seemed you don't see the flaws in your methods, your analysis is solely based on the images and translations supplied by the Chinese internet posters, which can be misleading and inconclusive, since all images are on the net because they are approved by the authorities to be there, and many times the time of publishing on the net does not necessarily mean the time of taken of those images. Plus you have a weak point of not mastering the Chinese language. Without the ability to read all publishing,news coverage etc about a subject matter, how can you be so confident in forming your final conclusion?
View attachment 357845

Fully agree with your logic. They are simply too many goodies from Chinese articles and video that can let you understand more of Chinese military development than mere photo and pictures. And no Chinese translator will bother to do full translation for you or the whole article of the video. You cannot fully understand the real in depth of what's happening in those projects. Especially those article and video are from chief designers and high position personnel like AVIC Vice President or chairman. Don't tell me those people are not credible or they don't know what are they talking. And then start to tell me you know better than chief designer that kind of BS.

 

[kuge]

Totally agreed. But some still do not want to accept it.



After the J-20 debut demo flight, no western analyst dare to claim that J-20 is fully relied on the Russian engines any more as they usually did before. Now instead of emphasizing that engine is the wake point for the Chinese jets, the changed to other lines such as espionage, lack of stealth, lack of sensor&network integration capabilities and so on. Why weren't they using your simple a-picture-is-worth-than-a-thusand-word methods in their analyzing? Were they too ignorant?

I think you need to consider to brief these guys who commented about J-20 on main western publishing in wake of the recent J-20 demo flight. For instance, guys like Greg Waldron, Asia Managing Editor of FlightGlobal, who claimed:"
'I think we learned very little. We learned it is very loud. But we can't tell what type of engine it has, or very much about the mobility". Or this guy Justin Bronk, a Research Fellow specializing in combat airpower at the Royal United Services Institute, who pointed out that the aircraft most likely flew with underpowered engines, and not the engines that would fly on the final version. “Engine performance is a key function of any aircraft. China and Russia continue to lag behind because of the really top end manufacturing processes you need” to create and tune high quality aircraft engines".


View attachment 357845

how come western analysts know those are not russian engines in the absence of public info on j-20 engines?

 

[samsara]

how come western analysts know those are not russian engines in the absence of public info on j-20 engines?

IF readers here do agree that the precise engine to be used is indeed treated as a tightly guarded CLASSIFIED matter, in the absence of the public/official disclosure of what kind of engine used, then don't all think better to stop speculating which engine is being used since there won't be any official info to prop whatsoever speculation? I mean it will remain a guess or speculation at best. And since China won't export J-20 they have no need to reveal anything they intend to keep in close door

Or, does anyone here instead expect a genuine leak slipping out regarding this engine matter?

~~~~~
"Observe calmly; secure our position; cope with affairs calmly; hide our capacities and bide our time; be good at maintaining a low profile; and never claim leadership." - Deng Xiaoping (1904 - 1997)

 

[Beast]

If readers here do agree that the precise engine to be used is indeed treated as a tightly guarded CLASSIFIED matter, in the absence of the public/official disclosure of what kind of engine used, then don't all think better to stop speculating which machine is being used since there won't be any official info to prop whatsoever speculation?

Or, does anyone here instead expect a genuine leak slipping out regarding this engine matter?

I expected they will make an announcement when WS-15 is officially install on it but it will not be soon. They are simply too many fact to deduct the engine used on J-20 during demo at zhuhai 2016 is not
AL-31F. From chief designer speech to the whole flight performance without using a single afterburners.

I guess after the WS-10 saga during the 2009 when they are forced to retract their statement of domestic engine install on J-11b fighter. They will be more caution of such announcement until the engine is fully stable and proven over a long usage of hours.

 

[Asoka]

IF readers here do agree that the precise engine to be used is indeed treated as a tightly guarded CLASSIFIED matter, in the absence of the public/official disclosure of what kind of engine used, then don't all think better to stop speculating which engine is being used since there won't be any official info to prop whatsoever speculation? I mean it will remain a guess or speculation at best. And since China won't export J-20 they have no need to reveal anything they intend to keep in close door

Or, does anyone here instead expect a genuine leak slipping out regarding this engine matter?

~~~~~
"Observe calmly; secure our position; cope with affairs calmly; hide our capacities and bide our time; be good at maintaining a low profile; and never claim leadership." - Deng Xiaoping (1904 - 1997)

China is running a masterful deception campaign regarding J-20 and WS-10. Deception is primarily used to deceive or mislead enemies into taking the wrong action AND delay them from taking the right action or corrective action. US is already mislead into cancel F-22 and made a massive bet on F-35.

The current phase of the campaign is keeping US and its allies from taking the right action -- that is cancel F-35 and restart F-22 production or update F-22. The longer the delay, the more costly is the corrective action, or the most costly is the mistake.

There are many official/public announcements, but they are deliberately ambiguous/unclear. They don't tell the whole truths. There are also many genuine leaks. AND many fake leaks design to confuse and mislead foreign intelligences.

There were 100,000 persons worked with F-22 and over 200,000 persons working with F-35. So there will similar number of people working on J-20. There are bound to be genuine leaks. The way to cancel the effect of those leaks is to use massive amount of fake leaks and disinformations deliberately encouraged by some websites and TV shows.

There are genuine informations to based on your speculations. You just need to read all the available informations in Chinese, and determine the source's creditability by looks at its track record and use your own logic.

China is a Master of Deception. So I am not surprised that the westerners are thoroughly confused and paralyzed. They are repeating many lies to themselves.

China will not have a stealth fighter before 2020. . . China copied this . . . stolen that. . . China can't innovate. . . China can only copy US technologies. . .Chinese hacker stolen 4 Terabytes of F-35 data. . . China's technology is junk. . . J-20 is underpowered. . .J-20 is using Russian engine AL-31. . . J-20 is using WS-10X . . .J-20 is not a dog fighter because it's huge. . .China can't produce high Thrust and high TWR engine . . . Canard is not stealthy . . . J-20 is a interceptor/striker. . . J-20's stealth is not as good as F-22. . . F-22's avionics is better than J-20 (LOL). . .J-20 don't have full networking/sensor fusion capability. . . J-20 is based on F-117. . . J-20 is based on Mig1.44. . .and absolutely no mention of the many anti-stealth radars that both China and Russia possess.

If you go to MSM websites and look at the comments, and you will know what I mean. They had dumb themselves down by repeating their own lies and propaganda to themselves.

The result is the end of the Western Air-Superiority/Dominance in 10-20 years.

This J-20 engine is clearly Chinese, I was talking the earlier one on the yellow skinned J-20, not the current one we have now.

The current ones with grey camouflage WAS the yellow skin ones.

 

[Deino]

Guys .. it's indeed only funny ! Not sure how much one can be obsessed (maybe in the same way like in me in the opposite) ... but anyway I will surely again receive my bashings as being anti-China in a few minutes!

One point however I beg to consider ...
In general I agree with You and I always admire all who can read and understand Chinese and I know that for me it's probably my biggest weak-point. However that does not mean that our/my conclusions are wrong per se or must be wrong since they lack a general understanding.
If You just look here at the PDF where a few guys repeatedly bash others - including myself - for this lack of language understanding get deeply stuck in these mish-mash of rumours, reports, theories and contra-theories.

Again, I admit that I lack certain information and esp. what might be written between the lines, however the true important facts will surface one day or another and if they are really major news, they won't hide that long. Just look at the new PL-XX, the latest J-20 images or FC-31.V2; even if I don't get them as early as others, they don't get lost.

So we probably don't get all information at once, but we also do not have to sort out the worst BS, since this does not remain on topic for long. Just remember how many fakes or psed images are sometimes floating all over certain forums ... so I do not even take care of them. And with the reminder of information I'm sure a reasonable conclusion is sometimes not that more far off that some strange theories that were otherwise discussed ... esp. like here.

The point is simply: If the J-20 is indeed using such a super-secret already operational WS-15 "that only looks like a AL-31 or WS-10" or "it uses a WS-10-AL-31-hybrid developed by Chinese made by the WS-10's core mated with the AL-31FN's nozzle to hide it's real identity", and they are a well-known and accepted FACT in the Chinese community, why are these theories only discussed here ?? I'm sure at least a few honourable Chinese members, who are also lurking around at English-speaking forums will teach, explain and in the end persuade all others from this fact. In reality, these strange theories remain here and will never ever be discussed elsewhere ... or is this another a masterful deception campaign and a secret agreement to keep this secret only discussed here !??

Deino

 

[nang2]

Guys .. it's indeed only funny ! Not sure how much one can be obsessed (maybe in the same way like in me in the opposite) ... but anyway I will surely again receive my bashings as being anti-China in a few minutes!

One point however I beg to consider ...
In general I agree with You and I always admire all who can read and understand Chinese and I know that for me it's probably my biggest weak-point. However that does not mean that our/my conclusions are wrong per se or must be wrong since they lack a general understanding.
If You just look here at the PDF where a few guys repeatedly bash others - including myself - for this lack of language understanding get deeply stuck in these mish-mash of rumours, reports, theories and contra-theories.

Again, I admit that I lack certain information and esp. what might be written between the lines, however the true important facts will surface one day or another and if they are really major news, they won't hide that long. Just look at the new PL-XX, the latest J-20 images or FC-31.V2; even if I don't get them as early as others, they don't get lost.

So we probably don't get all information at once, but we also do not have to sort out the worst BS, since this does not remain on topic for long. Just remember how many fakes or psed images are sometimes floating all over certain forums ... so I do not even take care of them. And with the reminder of information I'm sure a reasonable conclusion is sometimes not that more far off that some strange theories that were otherwise discussed ... esp. like here.

The point is simply: If the J-20 is indeed using such a super-secret already operational WS-15 "that only looks like a AL-31 or WS-10" or "it uses a WS-10-AL-31-hybrid developed by Chinese made by the WS-10's core mated with the AL-31FN's nozzle to hide it's real identity", and they are a well-known and accepted FACT in the Chinese community, why are these theories only discussed here ?? I'm sure at least a few honourable Chinese members, who are also lurking around at English-speaking forums will teach, explain and in the end persuade all others from this fact. In reality, these strange theories remain here and will never ever be discussed elsewhere ... or is this another a masterful deception campaign and a secret agreement to keep this secret only discussed here !??

Deino

Don't beat yourself too much. I can read and understand Chinese. I couldn't get to the same conclusion about the mysterious new engine, either. Among many other Chinese, especially those in China and active in Chinese defense forums in China, it is still a speculation.

 

[UKBengali]

Then this does explain why some J-20 engine does look like the AL-31F, but it is much more powerful.

And the current J-20 engine doesn't show any outer characteristics of the AL-31F.

My opinion is that the J-20 is either using a WS-10X, which delivers significantly more thrust than the WS-10A(at the expense of shorter engine life), or is already using an early model WS-15.

As pointed out by another poster, there is no way that ANY current Russian engine will have allowed the J-20 to do the kind of maneuvers at Zhuai 2016 without using afterburners.

Those that keep repeating AL-31 is being used on the J-20 are not being logical at all.

 

[Tiqiu]

If You just look here at the PDF where a few guys repeatedly bash others - including myself - for this lack of language understanding get deeply stuck in these mish-mash of rumours, reports, theories and contra-theories.

Please don't feel that way, personally I think you did a good job in many things.

I'm sure at least a few honourable Chinese members, who are also lurking around at English-speaking forums will teach, explain and in the end persuade all others from this fact.

That is not gonna happen because of the PLA Secrecy Regulations

保密守则
1、不该说的秘密不说。
2、不该问的秘密不问。
3、不该看的秘密不看。
4、不该带的秘密不带。
5、不该传的秘密不传。
6、不该记的秘密不记。
7、不该存的秘密不存。
8、不在非保密场所阅办、谈论秘密。
9、不私自复制、保存和销毁秘密。
10、不带秘密载体探亲、访友、旅游。

The Secrecy Protocol
1, do not say the secret that should not be said.
2, do not ask the secret that should not be asked.
3, do not look at the secret that should not be looked at.
4, do not take the secret that should not be taken.
5, do not pass the secret that should not passed.
6, do not remember the secret should not be remembered.
7, do not keep the secret that should not be kept.
8, do not read,talk and process the secret in non-secured places.
9, do not copy, save and destroy the secret without permissions.
10,do no carry secret carriers when traveling and visiting relatives and friends.

Fully agree with your logic. They are simply too many goodies from Chinese articles and video that can let you understand more of Chinese military development than mere photo and pictures. And no Chinese translator will bother to do full translation for you or the whole article of the video. You cannot fully understand the real in depth of what's happening in those projects. Especially those article and video are from chief designers and high position personnel like AVIC Vice President or chairman. Don't tell me those people are not credible or they don't know what are they talking. And then start to tell me you know better than chief designer that kind of BS.

以事实粉碎抹黑中国发动机的谣言 太行改进型发动机
2016-11-28 · 兵工科技
http://dy.163.com/v2/article/detail/C6V08H2H051598RQ.html

或将采用矢量发动机技术

　　除了“太行”样机展品，在“太行”展台展板上还以特写照片的形式展示了工作状态下的尾喷口的细节。虽然从照片上无法直接看出该发动机是否工作在矢量推力的状态。但是我们可以从发动机控制系统模型展台上的一些小的部件看出一定的端倪，并根据这些变化推断，展板上出现的尾喷口的局部照片，实际是非常低调的展示了装配了矢量喷口的发动机在矢量模式下工作的情况。从背后的展板上的图中可以看出，该型发动机的全向矢量喷口的转动角度为10度，应该属于小角度矢量发动机。

　　大家不要小看小角度矢量发动机技术，它是更高水平矢量发动机技术的基础，相信，随着未来的小角度矢量发动机的逐步列装和使用，会逐步积累数据，放开限制。基本达到类似117S那样的大角度偏转的矢量发动机的技术水平也是指日可待的。

 

[grey boy 2]

New helmet used on J-20 during flight test (J20试飞员戴的新的轻型头盔编号是TK-31)

 

[Asoka]

Guys .. it's indeed only funny ! Not sure how much one can be obsessed (maybe in the same way like in me in the opposite) ... but anyway I will surely again receive my bashings as being anti-China in a few minutes!

One point however I beg to consider ...
In general I agree with You and I always admire all who can read and understand Chinese and I know that for me it's probably my biggest weak-point. However that does not mean that our/my conclusions are wrong per se or must be wrong since they lack a general understanding.
If You just look here at the PDF where a few guys repeatedly bash others - including myself - for this lack of language understanding get deeply stuck in these mish-mash of rumours, reports, theories and contra-theories.

Again, I admit that I lack certain information and esp. what might be written between the lines, however the true important facts will surface one day or another and if they are really major news, they won't hide that long. Just look at the new PL-XX, the latest J-20 images or FC-31.V2; even if I don't get them as early as others, they don't get lost.

So we probably don't get all information at once, but we also do not have to sort out the worst BS, since this does not remain on topic for long. Just remember how many fakes or psed images are sometimes floating all over certain forums ... so I do not even take care of them. And with the reminder of information I'm sure a reasonable conclusion is sometimes not that more far off that some strange theories that were otherwise discussed ... esp. like here.

The point is simply: If the J-20 is indeed using such a super-secret already operational WS-15 "that only looks like a AL-31 or WS-10" or "it uses a WS-10-AL-31-hybrid developed by Chinese made by the WS-10's core mated with the AL-31FN's nozzle to hide it's real identity", and they are a well-known and accepted FACT in the Chinese community, why are these theories only discussed here ?? I'm sure at least a few honourable Chinese members, who are also lurking around at English-speaking forums will teach, explain and in the end persuade all others from this fact. In reality, these strange theories remain here and will never ever be discussed elsewhere ... or is this another a masterful deception campaign and a secret agreement to keep this secret only discussed here !??

Deino

"WS-10-AL-31-hybrid developed by Chinese made by the WS-10's core mated with the AL-31FN's nozzle to hide it's real identity"
I got this from a Chinese forum. It is common engineering practice to wrap new technology with proven mature technology for rapid prototyping and testing. So to believe existing WS-10 and AF-31 technology is used to wrap around WS-15 core engine to deliver an early prototype for testing makes sense to me. That way J-20 could have an engine that meet most of the performance requirements and begin testing. And the Engine Engineering have more time to perfect the production model of the WS-15. This explains the WS-15 have similar petals but much more powerful Thrust. And call it WS-10X informally, to confuse the foreigners is even better idea. An unintended PLUS, probably. Win-Win-Win situation here.

Can China produce an engine that is much more powerful than the F119-PW-100 (Max Thrust 160kN) used by F-22?

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

My opinion is that the J-20 is either using a WS-10X, which delivers significantly more thrust than the WS-10A(at the expense of shorter engine life), or is already using an early model WS-15.

As pointed out by another poster, there is no way that ANY current Russian engine will have allowed the J-20 to do the kind of maneuvers at Zhuai 2016 without using afterburners.

Those that keep repeating AL-31 is being used on the J-20 are not being logical at all.

The current J-20 engine could likely be a hybrid between the WS-15 and WS-10, and it can already produce a thrust much higher than the F119.

The "pure blood" WS-15 could likely exceed 200kN in the afterburner thrust as China can currently produce the titanium alloy that withstands against 2.2K Celsius as the engine blade.

 

[Tiqiu]

It is confirmed: The new Chinese PL15 long-range air-to -air missile with marh6 speed and 500km range will be fitted onto the J-20.

On the CCTV4 《中国舆论场》20161204 program, when asked by the pilots from the PLA Aviation School whether the PL15 will be fitted on to the J-20, the PLA General Yinzhuo replied yes repeatedly. He said the PL-15 is aimed to take out high value targets like surveillance/aerial refueling/bomber.

Watch from 46:50

Also from 20:08, the air force personal Mr. Du Wenlong said: the numbers of the J-20 to be deployed by the PLA will be much more than the numbers of 42 of F-35 for Japan.