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Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

As far as I am concerned, the matter is TECHNICALLY relevant and related. But you and the PDF Chinese can relax because the Chinese mod, in the interest of protecting his fellow Chinese, are going to delete my posts anyway.

Honestly but here you Are wrong - especially since i am the one who gets the most bashing of bring anti-chinese only since i am not a blinded fan- boy ( just read my post a bit further above) - and it is not a matter of protecting chinese feelings. This discussion has long become much too much off- Topic and some arguments from bith sides are even more plain wrong ...

Anyway ... Everything more off-topic will be deleted.

Deino
 
In aerodynamics, shaping is visible and its effects are immediate and equally visible. So when I argued that the J-20's shape is inspired or referenced by the MIG 1.44, there are technical legitimacy to that argument.

When you tried to refute that argument by using a feature that have no real effects whatsoever on the object, what else can you be but -- WRONG ? When we talk of engine 'performance' we mean core burn efficiency, thrust, fuel consumption rate, all the things that helps an engine move an aircraft. Noise is not a part of that. All airliners have been flying for decades without that aeroacoustics features. Jet engine technology have been progressing without that feature.

So no, GE cannot use the external features of the engine pod/housing on an RR engine as reference or inspiration, but Chengdu certainly can use the external features of the MIG 1.44 to design the J-20.

No real effects? I'm sure those companies won't put those chevrons on if there's really "No real effects". What's your source that people don't consider noise as part of "performance".

"In fixed-wing aircraft driven by one or more jet engines, certain aspects of performance such as thrust relate directly to the safe operation of the aircraft whereas other aspects of the engine operation such as noise and engine emissions affect the environment." (Jet engine performance From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) According to this, noise is simply one of many aspects of performance. Simply because the engine have been progressing without that feature doesn't mean you can exclude it as part of the argument. The last time I checked stealth fighters have also "been progressing without that feature".

And don't give me that "inspire or reference" the two words aren't the same, and they are not interchangeable. Here's definition of reference, "use of a source of information in order to ascertain something." Here's definition of inspire "give rise to." It's a subtle difference, but it shouldn't be too hard for you to understand. Right??
 
No real effects? I'm sure those companies won't put those chevrons on if there's really "No real effects". What's your source that people don't consider noise as part of "performance".

"In fixed-wing aircraft driven by one or more jet engines, certain aspects of performance such as thrust relate directly to the safe operation of the aircraft whereas other aspects of the engine operation such as noise and engine emissions affect the environment." (Jet engine performance From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) According to this, noise is simply one of many aspects of performance. Simply because the engine have been progressing without that feature doesn't mean you can exclude it as part of the argument. The last time I checked stealth fighters have also "been progressing without that feature".

And don't give me that "inspire or reference" the two words aren't the same, and they are not interchangeable. Here's definition of reference, "use of a source of information in order to ascertain something." Here's definition of inspire "give rise to." It's a subtle difference, but it shouldn't be too hard for you to understand. Right??
no he is right you are wrong noise is minor "performance" part of jet engine
 
@gambit

Hello, Sir. Hope everything's well with you. I was wondering if you could answer a small question. How are these new clipped stabilizers of J-20 and J-31 more stealthier than their predecessors? This alteration is unique to Chinese designs. US did something similar with F-22 but limited to wings only, not applied to the vertical stabilizers.

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Shenyang-J-31-Gyrfalcon-Stealth-Fighter.jpg

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@gambit

Hello, Sir. Hope everything's well with you. I was wondering if you could answer a small question. How are these new clipped stabilizers of J-20 and J-31 more stealthier than their predecessors? This alteration is unique to Chinese designs. US did something similar with F-22 but limited to wings only, not applied to the vertical stabilizers.
Let us return to the basic rules in designing with intent to low radar observability.

Control of:

- Quantity of radiators
- Array of radiators
- Modes of radiation

The question you asked is not small. In fact, it is tactically significant and if done incorrectly, the 'low' part of 'low radar observability' will increase.

squares_cropped_zpsskjwncqr.jpg


In the simple example above, square 1 have four sides and four tips for a total of 8 edge diffraction radiators. Square 2 have five sides and five tips for a total of 10 edge diffraction radiators.

The initial impression would be that S-2 sort of 'violated' rule 1 (control of quantity of radiators ), but if these radiators are positioned in such a way that any edge diffraction signals are redirected away from source direction, where the radar signals came from, then S-2 is in compliance of rule 2 (control of array of radiators) despite having a higher number of radiators. The modes of radiation, edge diffraction, is the same for both squares.

I used the word 'violated' quite loosely here. It is not so much a violation of any rule but rather more or less compliant to them. A sphere have no edge diffraction radiation because it has no edges and tips. A sphere have specular and surface waves modes of radiation. Put absorbers on the sphere to control those modes of radiation and we might just have the ideal 'stealth' body.

So now take a look at the F-117 cockpit region...

f-117_canopy.jpg


We see edge diffraction signals all over that body because of all those sharp ridges. This body seemingly is not very compliant with rule 1: Control of QUANTITY of radiators.

But this body is very compliant to rule 2: ARRAY of radiators.

That compliance, or obedience, to rule 2 is so good that the F-117's RCS remain secret to this day. Array of radiators is where we see those famous serrated features, large and small, at the edges of the flight control surfaces, fuselage, and engine nozzles.

The rules mean that if we FIRST control the quantity of radiators, we would worry less and less about how to array what we have, and less about what kind of radiation that comes from what we have.

The opposite is true that the more quantity of radiators we have, the more complex the problem of how to array (position) them, and what modes of radiation there might be, so less signals will return to the seeking radar.

Why do one J-20 have modified vertical stabs but another does not ? I would dare guess that some tests on these structures indicated that there are 'stealthy' benefits to those modifications without adversely affecting aerodynamics and controllability issues.

The 3 basic rules on designing a 'low radar observability' body must be taken at the same time and when there is a major item like a flight control structure that protrudes into space, therefore fully exposed to incoming radar signals, even cropping a corner requires close study. Whether the American design needs this modification or not is based upon the same three rules.

I know my answer is long but it cannot be otherwise.
 
EACH winged aircraft can trace its lineage back the Wright Flyer. That is no exaggeration. Go back one more step and you will touch the bird, of whom the Wright Brothers studied how birds flexes their wings to maneuver in flight.

Aerodynamics is the study of flow around shapes. So if you are an aerodynamicist, you would have a pretty good guess of an airframe based upon its shapes, from body to wings. It also mean that if you see two SIMILAR shapes, meaning not IDENTICAL, from the same knowledge, you would also have a pretty good guess as to their performance. You cannot in good professional conscience argue that the behaviors of a canard-ed aircraft is the same as a conventionally tailed aircraft. All of this came from observation.

Since the canard is ahead of the wing, shaping and positioning the canard is even more crucial than for a conventional tailplane assembly. Do it inefficiently and you will negative affect lift over the main wing. Do it wrong and your design will crash.

So when you see this...

j-9_mig-144_j-20_zpsjsfjgkuf.jpg


j-9_mig-144_j-20_front_zpsjuvjwoah.jpg


It unlikely that you, as an aerodynamicist, will guess that the J-20 came from the older J-9. The shaping of the J-20's canards are too similar to the MIG's. The canards' dihedral (upsweep angle) exists on the MIG and J-20, but not on the J-9. Why do you think there is a canard dihedral on one design but not the other ? What about the quantity of flight control surfaces ? Which has more and why ?

When I transferred from the F-111 to the F-16, I do not need to know the aerodynamics of the F-16 to know that its flight characteristics will be different from the F-111. And I was correct based upon appearance alone. YOU would, not merely could, make the same correct guess.

In rotary winged aircrafts, aka 'helicopter', just from noting the number of blades in the main rotor assembly, one can guess the performance of that helo to a high degree of accuracy. The more the number of blades, the more stable the flight but the less maneuverability. Which explains why the Cobra have only two blades because as an attack aircraft, it needs maneuverability to make quick aspect changes to deal with threats to self and to ground forces. On the other hand, the Apache, while also designed as an attack helo, it was also designed to carry more ordnance and other non-weapons related systems for other combat roles, hence four blades.

The point here is that while there are limits to appearances, noting similarities and differences can tell us much, even to origin of design.

A lot of words to state a very simple concept, that form determines function, no? If the J-20 and the Mig 1.44 were designed to serve similar functions, wouldn't it make sense that they would have similar form? Why does the J-20 have to originate from the Mig 1.44 instead of simply convergent evolution? Did the bat come from the bird because they both fly with wings? Did the whale come from the shark because they both swim by flapping their tails?

For clearly a well educated engineer like you, I'd expect more nuanced answer than essentially the two share similar forms and thus one must be evolution of another.
 
A lot of words to state a very simple concept, that form determines function, no? If the J-20 and the Mig 1.44 were designed to serve similar functions, wouldn't it make sense that they would have similar form? Why does the J-20 have to originate from the Mig 1.44 instead of simply convergent evolution? Did the bat come from the bird because they both fly with wings? Did the whale come from the shark because they both swim by flapping their tails?

For clearly a well educated engineer like you, I'd expect more nuanced answer than essentially the two share similar forms and thus one must be evolution of another.
leave him Mr @dingyibys, he don't understand your words
 
A lot of words to state a very simple concept, that form determines function, no? If the J-20 and the Mig 1.44 were designed to serve similar functions, wouldn't it make sense that they would have similar form? Why does the J-20 have to originate from the Mig 1.44 instead of simply convergent evolution? Did the bat come from the bird because they both fly with wings? Did the whale come from the shark because they both swim by flapping their tails?

For clearly a well educated engineer like you, I'd expect more nuanced answer than essentially the two share similar forms and thus one must be evolution of another.
Sorry. I cannot dumb it down any further. But I fully expected that post to go 'Whoooosh' over your head.
 
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How can j20 more stealther than f22 ...we need optical stealth...We want to see the plasma stealth...We want completely disappear...
So the research in China started long long long ago..

First of all...Five years ago, the development of smart skin...According to the radar absorb radar frequency automatically adjust itself...Some related technical papers is aboveboard ...

And then...About stealth research is not a single subject...More collaborative research in the field of system ...Wide application is the intention ...SO...Who said the j20 on the stealth technology can't use warships stealth tec. and in fact j 20 has a lot of stealth technique which is derived from Marine scientific research...

And finally...For the controversy about the super long wave and S wave, the problem of l-band stealth......Since dear friends all can think...why the reachers of speical Chinese experts can not?..
The research work...
Plans...Is all started more than 20 years ago...


隐身性能怎么才能和22娘一个档次。。。不行。。。偶们要看光学隐身。。。我们要看等离子隐身。。。我们要看彻底隐身。。。
于是科研兔掀桌中。。。
嗯。。。坑爹的楼楼稍微解毒下。。。
首先。。。5年前兔子就完成了智能蒙皮的研发。。。根据雷达波自动调节自身吸收雷达的频率。。。而相关的一些技术论文更是光明正大的溜达粗来了。。。有兔友会问这会不会让鹰酱也受到启发呀。。。嘛。。。那得5年后的事了。。
接着。。。关于隐身性研究并不是一个单一的课题。。。多系统全领域的合作研究。。。广泛应用化才是兔子的本意。。。SO。。。谁特么说20姬的隐身技术不能用到战舰上的偶和谁急。。。因为20姬的隐身技术很多来源于船舶科技研究。。。
最后。。。对于兔友们广泛争议的关于超长波还有S、L波段隐身的难题。。。嘛。。。既然亲们都想到了。。。那些成天吃饱撑着没事干开脑洞的科研兔们怎么会没想到呢。。。
研究工作。。。
相关计划。。。是20多年前了。。。
 
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隐身性能怎么才能和22娘一个档次。。。不行。。。偶们要看光学隐身。。。我们要看等离子隐身。。。我们要看彻底隐身。。。
于是科研兔掀桌中。。。
嗯。。。坑爹的楼楼稍微解毒下。。。
首先。。。5年前兔子就完成了智能蒙皮的研发。。。根据雷达波自动调节自身吸收雷达的频率。。。而相关的一些技术论文更是光明正大的溜达粗来了。。。有兔友会问这会不会让鹰酱也受到启发呀。。。嘛。。。那得5年后的事了。。
接着。。。关于隐身性研究并不是一个单一的课题。。。多系统全领域的合作研究。。。广泛应用化才是兔子的本意。。。SO。。。谁特么说20姬的隐身技术不能用到战舰上的偶和谁急。。。因为20姬的隐身技术很多来源于船舶科技研究。。。
最后。。。对于兔友们广泛争议的关于超长波还有S、L波段隐身的难题。。。嘛。。。既然亲们都想到了。。。那些成天吃饱撑着没事干开脑洞的科研兔们怎么会没想到呢。。。
研究工作。。。
相关计划。。。是20多年前了。。。

A detailed or bit of insight would be appreciated, Translation please.
 

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