Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[qwerrty]

Still need radar information for missile and gun solutions.

the IRST would take care of that

 

[gambit]

Tears almost came to my eyes when I first saw this plane.

Mine came as well...From laughing...From looking at this missile rail contraption...

The foundation of radar detection is reflection and in radar detection, if the goal is about 'stealth', the multiple reflections are bad. Very very bad.

When a radar signal hit something like the above, there will be interference from multiple reflections: Constructive and Destructive.

Regarding 'stealth':

Destructive Interference = Good
Constructive Interference = Bad

Keyword search for you: Wave superposition. Destructive interference cancels colliding signals. Constructive interference amplifies and make coherent stronger signals.

So if we take a look at this...

Any approach angle will inevitably produces multiple reflections between the missile and the fuselage. How is this any better than an opened weapons bay? It is not.

 

[gambit]

the IRST would take care of that?

Best location for IR sensor is directly behind -- looking at exhaust. With radar, you get returns regardless of target aspect angle to you.

There is a weakness in IR detection that most are unaware of. It is called 'diurnal crossover' or 'diurnal equilibrium'. If you think I make up this stuff...

http://www.un.org/Depts/dha/mct/nee.txt

LIMITATIONS
11. As with any sensor system, there are limitations driven by the choice of the sensor. For the EO/IR systems, visual access to the mined areas from the airborne platforms is required. Solar loading is necessary for optimum performance to get temperature differentials that are detectable by the sensors. There will also be two distinct periods during the day when there is no temperature differential for the sensors to detect. These diurnal crossover points vary in time of day from one day to the next based on variations in weather conditions. Some sensors have a temporal limitation in that the longer a mine is buried, the less likely it is that you will be able to detect it.

Test Data Gallery

Low contrast is typically observed during two period of the diurnal cycle, typically at cross-over points. Those times depend primarily on the ambient temperature and solar loading profiles of a given day, along with parameters such as the thermal capacity and emissivity of the targets and backgrounds. A significant strength of polarimetery for target acquisition is that targets often remain visible during cross-over points.

Diurnal equilibrium is when there is too little contrast for the IR sensor to distinguish out anything. The condition is most noticeable against ground targets when the sun is at a certain angle in the sky twice a day. Low angles.

However, in an air-air engagement, if the fight is sufficiently low altitude and one combatant is looking 'down' at the other, his target may end up briefly in a position and condition that is similar to a low sun position that produces the effect of diurnal equilibrium, thereby throwing off the missile's IR sensor. No matter how briefly it may be.

 

[hurt]

Still need radar information for missile and gun solutions.

Dont forget Infra-red search and track

 

[zxmint]

Tears almost came to my eyes when I first saw this plane.

Not long ago the westerns were treating Chinese in such a bad manner, matter of fact they were treating all easterners like that. treating non western as if easterners are subhumans.
Now look at our Chinese Brothers and sisters, advancing at such a rate that the west doesn't know what to do.

As son long as Iran, china continue to grow, the west will be kicked out of the east.

There is an old saying in China that no one can stay at the peak forever. In human beings history, Anglo-Saxons have only been advanced for several hundreds of years. Compared to some great civilizations in history, they have nothing to be proud of and they've already been declining now and will be caught up by new rising countries very soon.

China is actually developing in an even faster speed than most people think, since its GDP has actually long been underestimated for the sake of the underestimated change rate of RMB. So the world people should ask WHY? How could a "dictatorship" socialism country be so successful on its development? China has the responsibility to share its successful experience with every country in the world, especially those developing countries and pull them out of the trap of the hypocritical "democracy" given by US.

 

[gambit]

There is an old saying in China that no one can stay at the peak forever. In human beings history, Anglo-Saxons have only been advanced for several hundreds of years. Compared to some great civilizations in history, they have nothing to be proud of and they've already been declining now and will be caught up by new rising countries very soon.

China is actually developing in an even faster speed than most people think, since its GDP has actually long been underestimated for the sake of the underestimated change rate of RMB. So the world people should ask WHY? How could a "dictatorship" socialism country be so successful on its development? China has the responsibility to share its successful experience with every country in the world, especially those developing countries and pull them out of the trap of the hypocritical "democracy" given by US.

Because it does it with the assistance of others, especially the ones that are supposedly in decline. When China was a Marxist dictatorship, did China go anywhere? Nope. China had to abandon Marxism and its failed economic model, embrace capitalism, and use the consumerism of other capitalist countries to bootstrap China out of the poverty that the idiotic communists got China into. So stop deluding yourself that somehow the economic success in China was because of some social/political breakthrough that no one else could have done.

 

[hk299792458]

Please come back on the topic of this thread.

Henri K.

 

[zxmint]

Because it does it with the assistance of others, especially the ones that are supposedly in decline. When China was a Marxist dictatorship, did China go anywhere? Nope. China had to abandon Marxism and its failed economic model, embrace capitalism, and use the consumerism of other capitalist countries to bootstrap China out of the poverty that the idiotic communists got China into. So stop deluding yourself that somehow the economic success in China was because of some social/political breakthrough that no one else could have done.

At least it has nothing to do with western "democracy". Too many examples could prove that compared to "democracy" countries, so called "dictatorship" countries are more effective to develop economics. Look at South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore(which is also an one-party ruled country). So it is time for westerners to stop criticize China's regime which show nothing but your fears and weakness.

 

[Lure]

Because it does it with the assistance of others, especially the ones that are supposedly in decline. When China was a Marxist dictatorship, did China go anywhere? Nope. China had to abandon Marxism and its failed economic model, embrace capitalism, and use the consumerism of other capitalist countries to bootstrap China out of the poverty that the idiotic communists got China into. So stop deluding yourself that somehow the economic success in China was because of some social/political breakthrough that no one else could have done.

Gambit,

I read some of your messages and you seem really confused. On one hand you think that China has the worse system of all times, they don't innovate anything and steal technology of others, and even they can't manage to steal and they simply produce poor quality equipments. Even if China does something new it's impossible to convince you that it's new and even if you believe it's something new than you simply think it is a useless innovation. Therefore either you have strong racist position which you think as a race Chinese people can't do anything good or you simply have a great prejudice about Chinese system. In either case you lose your ability of makin rational judgements.

However you think their system sucks or they suck and you are pretty sure about it, but you can't stop yourself for coming here and making comments about what they make, which you don't have any concrete data in your hand. People in here just get bits of information from everywhere and their accuracy is highly speculative. Than why you do it, why spend so much time to demonize it if you're sure they won't be able to produce anything that is not even comparable to it's American counterpart?

Besides Gambit, I don't know what your major is or what is your current occupation right now, but you're not the Mcgyver of the science you know. On one hand you make comments about aerodynamics very confidently, on another hand you make very confident remarks about materials science and on another you make comments about radars! I mean what are you? Not even a single human being can have knowledge about everything. In Turkish we have a saying "If anyone talks too much that person is lying", because usually we observed that people who really know something are less eager to talk. They rather think too much before talking.

 

[Luftwaffe]

I don't know what your major is or what is your current occupation right now, but you're not the Mcgyver of the science you know. I mean what are you?

He was a Technician.

 

[Genesis]

Because it does it with the assistance of others, especially the ones that are supposedly in decline. When China was a Marxist dictatorship, did China go anywhere? Nope. China had to abandon Marxism and its failed economic model, embrace capitalism, and use the consumerism of other capitalist countries to bootstrap China out of the poverty that the idiotic communists got China into. So stop deluding yourself that somehow the economic success in China was because of some social/political breakthrough that no one else could have done.

Look back into Chinese history if you want, but around the same time of western capitalism started, China was also starting it in Ming dynasty. Around the same time guns were becoming more important, China was using cannons, and guns like the west.

Then something terrible happened, due to the costly war with Japan in Korean the Ming dynasty's economy completely collapsed and in came the Manchu hordes, they were technologically inferior and pretty much inferior in every way except their unity, but then at that time Guns were important, but not a difference maker and Calvary can still make their impact felt.

China went into decline under the Qing in terms of innovation, technology and amongst other things.

Check out the weapons used during the Japanese invasion of Toyotomi.

I understand the western skepticism, I don't like it and I hate it but I understand it. When the west started the opium wars, the Chinese still didn't understand the new technology and the power it gave the west. The Chinese disregarded these technology as tricks and thus stupid and shouldn't be copied. The Chinese were hanging on the dream of being the best when that bubble burst long ago.

They didn't want to look at the truth, much like the West don't like to now. I don't blame them, because who would want to admit their power is slipping away.

Today China just restarted Capitalism, not started. If you really think about it, the world except for a few moments in history are always capitalist. Communism in it's true form is unnatural.

BTW Marx is German, you screwed China only fair that you help it back up.

 

[mahatir]

Ignore him , China will continue developing and catching up while other burn out of jealousy .

 

[sword1947]

what we believe is that right choice lead to right result.

 

[gambit]

Gambit,

I read some of your messages and you seem really confused.

I am more clear about this than you are.

On one hand you think that China has the worse system of all times, they don't innovate anything and steal technology of others,...

When there is an urgent need to advance, you do not reinvent the wheel, as the Chinese members here often said and they have no problems with industrial espionage and emulation of current technology and methods.

For example...

Who is the world's premier naval aviation power? China? Or is it US? So when you look at the new Chinese aircraft carrier, look at how similar their crew are to ours in terms of deck ops and appearance. Why? Because we did all the guesswork, explored the risks, shed blood, lost lives, refined what works, and continue the process all over again. So why should the PLAN look at anyone else? The PLAN may alter some deck ops a bit because of the differences between its carrier and the American versions, but the core of each deck operation remains the same because we proved it worked over the decades.

Ever marshal an aircraft?

Aircraft marshalling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Aircraft marshalling is visual signalling between ground personnel and pilots on an airport, aircraft carrier or helipad. Marshalling is one-on-one visual communication and a part of aircraft ground handling.

Where was the PLAAF when this method of silent but visual communication between pilot and ground crew was developed? More like the PLAAF did not exist. That is not a criticism but a statement of fact. So when the PLAAF came to be, why should it changed what worked across the decades and countries?

Bottom line is this...China IS copying and/or stealing technology, adapting methods and accepting foreign ideas in order to advance.

...and even they can't manage to steal and they simply produce poor quality equipments.

Simply is too harsh. But there is no denying that in the process of copying from others, one's own products will inevitably suffer Quality Assurance issues.

I work for a major NAND FLASH manufacturer. We buy often from the 'gray market' and disassembled what we bought to investigate who is masquerading as us, as in selling crap under our company name, in order to assure new customers and reassure nervous current ones, that when they buy from us, they are buying the real products. Not crap repackaged by unscrupulous so-called 'manufacturers' from mainland China.

My competitors in South Korea, Japan, and Europe does the same.

I do not have the chance to examine a purely Chinese manufactured aircraft but am wiling to bet renmibi to rice cakes that based on my 10yrs in the USAF I will find plenty that are subpar to our MIL standards. Done it to the Soviet MIGs.

Even if China does something new it's impossible to convince you that it's new and even if you believe it's something new than you simply think it is a useless innovation.

If you are talking about this contraption for the J-20, then explain what problem(s) is it trying to solve?

Therefore either you have strong racist position which you think as a race Chinese people can't do anything good or you simply have a great prejudice about Chinese system. In either case you lose your ability of makin rational judgements.

Direct this racist charge at the Chinese members here. They have established themselves a long time ago as to how they really feel about the 'inferior' Asiatics, of which includes me. They do not like to be challenged, no matter how politely and impersonally and even how well supported by credible sources, and when they found out I was a Viet, their insults got even more personal and vile.

No need to address the rest of your post.

 

[Sasquatch]

Please get back on topic now.