Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[razgriz19]

does anyone have a video of SD-10 being test fire???
thanx in advance!

 

[SBD-3]

does anyone have a video of SD-10 being test fire???
thanx in advance!

Eaglehannan did point to the fact that PAF tested the SD-10A but was not satisfied with it. While SD-10B is undergoing testing on FC-1 version in China

 

[monitor]

Eaglehannan did point to the fact that PAF tested the SD-10A but was not satisfied with it. While SD-10B is undergoing testing on FC-1 version in China

please post Any picture / video available of the test .thanks in advance

 

[SBD-3]

please post Any picture / video available of the test .thanks in advance

None have been leaked so far, they dont suppose to invite photographers on their missile testing facilities do they?

 

[Super Falcon]

the pic of JF 17 thunder i think it is not a J 10

 

[lamdafriend]

Look Sir, I hope You are not well aware of our Program, If You are not, Why would U bother speaking of it... If U need to Know more you may Come to Tejas Thread .... For Your Avatar, Go to user Cp(top left) then click edit avatar

thanks for the avatar,and further i know very much about the lca,and i can say that u can be proud of it
what i meant is that pak govt may be ready to sell its jet to some politically unstable nations too,whereas india's policies won,t allow itself to sell war machines to a nation that can be easily over powered by bands of thugs with kalanishkovs,or a gone wrong president.

further the jf 17 is cheaper and there are many pak friendly 3rd world nations

 

[SBD-3]

Anyways back to the topic, now the discussion is heating up for Block II and FC-20 and even some informed people are hinting about J-20 tech in JFT-II (MFD is the most prominent part)

 

[Mani2020]

Anyways back to the topic, now the discussion is heating up for Block II and FC-20 and even some informed people are hinting about J-20 tech in JFT-II (MFD is the most prominent part)

Hasnain ,it will be highly unlikely ,we will see some of the J-20 tech in FC-20 but in Jf-17 it seems highly unlikely as we know that JF-17 was basically designed as a medium tech and low cost fighter .incorporating 5th generation tech in it will kill the purpose and the price will shoot up as we know 5th generation tech is very costly also when we are incorporating the 5th generation tech in FC-20 which are meant to be high-end fighters then why would we go for the same J-20 tech in jf-17 ,it will result in lot of similarities in FC-20 and jf-17 then.

block 2 will not be much enhanced version as compared to block1 as it will just be added with some of the basic things which are currently lacking in current jf-17 like IFR, IRST etc .

Also large chuck of Block 1 is completed ,we have 21 jf-17's currently and 9 are in almost completion stage so by March 2011 we will already have 30 JF-17's and will left with 20 aircrafts from block 1 ,by going with same pace at the end of 2011 we will roughly have 45 fighters as the current figures state 25 aircrafts per year. In early 2012 we will be done with block when then it will come to block 2 ,so it will not be much time to incorporate such high class tech in block 2

We might see these advancements in block 3

 

[SBD-3]

Hasnain ,it will be highly unlikely ,we will see some of the J-20 tech in FC-20 but in Jf-17 it seems highly unlikely as we know that JF-17 was basically designed as a medium tech and low cost fighter .incorporating 5th generation tech in it will kill the purpose and the price will shoot up as we know 5th generation tech is very costly also when we are incorporating the 5th generation tech in FC-20 which are meant to be high-end fighters then why would we go for the same J-20 tech in jf-17 ,it will result in lot of similarities in FC-20 and jf-17 then.

block 2 will not be much enhanced version as compared to block1 as it will just be added with some of the basic things which are currently lacking in current jf-17 like IFR, IRST etc .

Also large chuck of Block 1 is completed ,we have 21 jf-17's currently and 9 are in almost completion stage so by March 2011 we will already have 30 JF-17's and will left with 20 aircrafts from block 1 ,by going with same pace at the end of 2011 we will roughly have 45 fighters as the current figures state 25 aircrafts per year. In early 2012 we will be done with block when then it will come to block 2 ,so it will not be much time to incorporate such high class tech in block 2

We might see these advancements in block 3

what i have posted was not my personal view but mostly sorted from the posts of senior posters (Munir and Pshamim). And it may make sense as well.
1-JFT is not a medium tech fighter. looking at its expected service horizon, it cant afford to be. You dont expect to be flying a medium tech plane in 2020+. it was posted by nabil a while ago that even block 1 was at par with Grippen C/D models of 2002 and 2003.
2-How much cost will add up if J-20/FC-20's system are incorporated? 30 million?, at max 40 Million?(almost 4 times the current cost) still very decent considering 60Million Falcon or Grippen. Having said that, I have kept my estimated very biased upwards as PAF may or will only incorporate certain subsystems, not the whole structure of J-20 which could be a costly thing.
3-firstly, they were talking about the improved KLJ-7 (ver II?) for JFT II (block II) and AESA for JFT UB (Ultimate Block III) but now munir sb is speculating AESA for block II. There must have been some developments, otherwise, I dont find him posting this like a fanboy

 

[farhan_9909]

Hasnain ,it will be highly unlikely ,we will see some of the J-20 tech in FC-20 but in Jf-17 it seems highly unlikely as we know that JF-17 was basically designed as a medium tech and low cost fighter .incorporating 5th generation tech in it will kill the purpose and the price will shoot up as we know 5th generation tech is very costly also when we are incorporating the 5th generation tech in FC-20 which are meant to be high-end fighters then why would we go for the same J-20 tech in jf-17 ,it will result in lot of similarities in FC-20 and jf-17 then.

block 2 will not be much enhanced version as compared to block1 as it will just be added with some of the basic things which are currently lacking in current jf-17 like IFR, IRST etc .

Also large chuck of Block 1 is completed ,we have 21 jf-17's currently and 9 are in almost completion stage so by March 2011 we will already have 30 JF-17's and will left with 20 aircrafts from block 1 ,by going with same pace at the end of 2011 we will roughly have 45 fighters as the current figures state 25 aircrafts per year. In early 2012 we will be done with block when then it will come to block 2 ,so it will not be much time to incorporate such high class tech in block 2

We might see these advancements in block 3

When i knew that JFT II will have a little improved Klj-7 this statement embrassed me infront of indians.

I used to say that JFT II will be on par with f-16 block 60 with AESA

2nd thing JfT at present dnt have full fly by wire,no HMD,No IRST,NO IFR,payload is nt 3.6ton bt it is 2 ton(empty weight 6400kg and loaded weight 9500KG),

with this modification.i dnt think JFT will be a good A2A fighter.

about cost if cost was the issue then PAF would nt have chosen the thales for the avionics/missile

just for 50 JFT pak was ready for paying 1.6Bn USD.32 million per each JFT.

including 12-15 million JFT cost.

So we can add some medium range AESA if option is available.

italy is ready to provide us their vixen..we should demand a little better and they can do this for us in 2 years

 

[Mani2020]

When i knew that JFT II will have a little improved Klj-7 this statement embrassed me infront of indians.

I used to say that JFT II will be on par with f-16 block 60 with AESA

2nd thing JfT at present dnt have full fly by wire,no HMD,No IRST,NO IFR,payload is nt 3.6ton bt it is 2 ton(empty weight 6400kg and loaded weight 9500KG),

with this modification.i dnt think JFT will be a good A2A fighter.

about cost if cost was the issue then PAF would nt have chosen the thales for the avionics/missile

just for 50 JFT pak was ready for paying 1.6Bn USD.32 million per each JFT.

including 12-15 million JFT cost.

So we can add some medium range AESA if option is available.

italy is ready to provide us their vixen..we should demand a little better and they can do this for us in 2 years

No, it was costing less then 32million as you also have to exclude the price of current avionics which were to be replaced by french from this 15 million price tag.

Secondly the current klj-7 is on par with the french radar being offered as mentioned earlier .

The max take of weight is low because JFT is light weight fighter where as f-16's are medium weight fighters and Jf-17 is smaller in size when compared to others

Chinese origin radar is also preferred in block-2 because of the integration of local missiles like RAAD and H2/h4,

We will see AESA radar but my point was AESA radar will not be available so early so we might see them in block-3 rather then block-2

And you can't expect everything from a new platform as it takes time, improvement will be done step by step , even the high-end fighters in light of Rafale .Gripen and EF-2000 don't have AESA radar.

 

[alimobin memon]

When i knew that JFT II will have a little improved Klj-7 this statement embrassed me infront of indians.

I used to say that JFT II will be on par with f-16 block 60 with AESA

2nd thing JfT at present dnt have full fly by wire,no HMD,No IRST,NO IFR,payload is nt 3.6ton bt it is 2 ton(empty weight 6400kg and loaded weight 9500KG),

with this modification.i dnt think JFT will be a good A2A fighter.

about cost if cost was the issue then PAF would nt have chosen the thales for the avionics/missile

just for 50 JFT pak was ready for paying 1.6Bn USD.32 million per each JFT.

including 12-15 million JFT cost.

So we can add some medium range AESA if option is available.

italy is ready to provide us their vixen..we should demand a little better and they can do this for us in 2 years

jf17 has fly by wire!!

 

[araz]

what i have posted was not my personal view but mostly sorted from the posts of senior posters (Munir and Pshamim). And it may make sense as well.
1-JFT is not a medium tech fighter. looking at its expected service horizon, it cant afford to be. You dont expect to be flying a medium tech plane in 2020+. it was posted by nabil a while ago that even block 1 was at par with Grippen C/D models of 2002 and 2003.
2-How much cost will add up if J-20/FC-20's system are incorporated? 30 million?, at max 40 Million?(almost 4 times the current cost) still very decent considering 60Million Falcon or Grippen. Having said that, I have kept my estimated very biased upwards as PAF may or will only incorporate certain subsystems, not the whole structure of J-20 which could be a costly thing.
3-firstly, they were talking about the improved KLJ-7 (ver II?) for JFT II (block II) and AESA for JFT UB (Ultimate Block III) but now munir sb is speculating AESA for block II. There must have been some developments, otherwise, I dont find him posting this like a fanboy

If I may add a few points here. PAF, as we all know is not only cash strapped but its capability to bring about major changes to the JFT are limited. It therefore has to rely on chinese help if not totally then at least partially. We have 250 fighters which are already obsolete or facing obsolescence .As such our situation demands quick incorporation of 4th generation capabilities at the smartest price that we can manage.
Given the size of JFT, we can only incorporate few changes as making too many changes may require a newer engine and redesign which has financial implications. Whether we can get a higher thrust engine from a reliable source is something that needs to be seen. But if we want higher technological advantage why not buy J10, in the 2015-2020corridor to make up that deficiency.It makes a lot more sense as the chinese impetus would remain in favour of J10 rather than JFT.
As we have seen with other planes like M3/5 rose and PGs PAF has incorporated tech, like better radars and only minor changes to airframe to enhance the capabilites of these planes. I think this is what we will do. incorporate changes borrowed from J10 into JFTwhich are relatively cheaper to do so with minor downsizing, but avoid any major redesign which delays things and makes a good plane unreliable. People need to understand that all the tech that we need is in JFT at the moment. The price is what makes it such an attractive buy for all the nations, who cannot afford heavy expenditure on their defence. If tech comes along which improves the plane profile and is worth making the changes , we will do so ,but these will be few and minor ones.
One also needs to understand these changes from a purely financial aspect also. Irrespective of how many changes you make, your plane has a ceiling beyond which it will not improve. Going against a heavier plane like Su or Mig29/35 it will always be at a disadvantage. You can circumvent this disadvantage by a better BVR,WVR and better training, but you will llose a certain number of planes in a combat. In a defensive posture you will need a 1:3 ratio. Now even a 2:3 loss of JFT VS a SU at its current price of 15 million vs40 million is a viable option(30:120 million). But add another 15 million of gadgets and you wont change this equation any more in your favour . So all that will happen is your price to take down a SU goes up to 60 million, but you dont change this ratio.
The only way to change this ratio is to buy a plane that would improve your ratio to 1:3 or better and PAF is banking on FC20 to do this. In this perspective see why PAF has objected to the price of 40 million and wants to drive down the cost to around 25-30million.
This analysis is purely mine and people can add or take away from it but it seems that at some stage everything comes down to money. In this perspective see Indian decision not to take up the offer of F22/35 and instead rely on F50 in which it will have individual rights to manufacture which would drive the cost down and keep IAF sanction free.
Regards
Araz

 

[SBD-3]

If I may add a few points here. PAF, as we all know is not only cash strapped but its capability to bring about major changes to the JFT are limited. It therefore has to rely on chinese help if not totally then at least partially. We have 250 fighters which are already obsolete or facing obsolescence .As such our situation demands quick incorporation of 4th generation capabilities at the smartest price that we can manage.
Given the size of JFT, we can only incorporate few changes as making too many changes may require a newer engine and redesign which has financial implications. Whether we can get a higher thrust engine from a reliable source is something that needs to be seen. But if we want higher technological advantage why not buy J10, in the 2015-2020corridor to make up that deficiency.It makes a lot more sense as the chinese impetus would remain in favour of J10 rather than JFT.
As we have seen with other planes like M3/5 rose and PGs PAF has incorporated tech, like better radars and only minor changes to airframe to enhance the capabilities of these planes. I think this is what we will do. incorporate changes borrowed from J10 into JFTwhich are relatively cheaper to do so with minor downsizing, but avoid any major redesign which delays things and makes a good plane unreliable. People need to understand that all the tech that we need is in JFT at the moment. The price is what makes it such an attractive buy for all the nations, who cannot afford heavy expenditure on their defence. If tech comes along which improves the plane profile and is worth making the changes , we will do so ,but these will be few and minor ones.
One also needs to understand these changes from a purely financial aspect also. Irrespective of how many changes you make, your plane has a ceiling beyond which it will not improve. Going against a heavier plane like Su or Mig29/35 it will always be at a disadvantage. You can circumvent this disadvantage by a better BVR,WVR and better training, but you will llose a certain number of planes in a combat. In a defensive posture you will need a 1:3 ratio. Now even a 2:3 loss of JFT VS a SU at its current price of 15 million vs40 million is a viable option(30:120 million). But add another 15 million of gadgets and you wont change this equation any more in your favour . So all that will happen is your price to take down a SU goes up to 60 million, but you dont change this ratio.
The only way to change this ratio is to buy a plane that would improve your ratio to 1:3 or better and PAF is banking on FC20 to do this. In this perspective see why PAF has objected to the price of 40 million and wants to drive down the cost to around 25-30million.
This analysis is purely mine and people can add or take away from it but it seems that at some stage everything comes down to money. In this perspective see Indian decision not to take up the offer of F22/35 and instead rely on F50 in which it will have individual rights to manufacture which would drive the cost down and keep IAF sanction free.
Regards
Araz

Agreed, as per Eagle Hannan,
1-PAF has no intentions for redesigning the bird as the current configuration is optimized for flight performance
A) Hard point deficiency is being met by using dual racks
B) There is only limited room kept in current structure (that too for only electronic and pod integration)so at current PAF has no plans for major redesigning (possibly not even JFT UB).
2- PAF is not integrating WS-13 into JFT as the time of WS-13 integration as per PAF, has already passed. Secondly, PAF is very impressed with RD-93/RD-33MK so it will stick with Russian engine (Chinese Version may use WS-13)
3- Munir Sahib also hinted towards the avionic part this also affirms hannan's post
4- 25-30 Million, IMHO would not be the price for PAF (though it might be the offer price for PLAAF since they funded J-10) considering the expected systems (PAF official did indicate that Bl-52 may not be the most advanced bird in PAF inventory in years to come) 25-30 Mio is too low. Hannan did mention that PAF is getting a very generous deal (may be Full ToT, Soft loan or as you said reduced price) but has not explained it.
5-I agree that there is a limit for up gradation but JFT,-in its current configuration- can afford a lot better, I am not talking about the airframe but putting up some more advanced systems in it, upgradation should be the way as its no rocket science that 1 high tech aircraft can deal with its adversary much better than 3 low tech/low capability aircrafts so a minor investment on JFT for incorporating better systems and weapons would be much better than adding up another weak thunder.

 

[localoca]

its this a FC-20 or an early prototype of a J-10?..