Changing demographics and standards in the Army

[Tiki Tam Tam]

There is no good or bad unit.

There are only good or bad officers!

Napoleon said this, right?

 

[niaz]

Why did the standards drop after 1971? From what I understand the core of the army always came from Punjab and not East Pakistan.

We had lost 90.000 in East Pakistan. And army expanded rapidly to compensate. Quite a few cadets who had not yet completed the full course at the PMA were granted commision in a hurry. This definitely caused lowering of standard.

In my opinion there is an urgent need in all the Service to stress on quality rather than on quantity. Since we have an all volunteer force, there should be no need to compromise on standards, regardless of the ethnic origin of the soldier. To be politically correct may be contrary to what is good for the fighting forces.

 

[sparten]

Bullshit statictics. 0% Kashmiris and NA people in 2001? In Kargil the CGS was a Kashmiri, most of the troops were from NLI and the GOC 12 Div was a Baloch (Abdul Qadir). There are 60,000 plus Sindhis in the army.

 

[F.O.X]

for officers 2nd div (60%) was a must. this has been reduced to 40% marks. even in the PAF for GDP pilots the marks required were 60%, but now is 45%.

i might not agree with that .
First let me clear some points.
Right now the markes %age require is as follows:

long course = 50% for PA & 60% for PAF & navy

Graduate course = 2nd Div.(45% marks)

& the standerds were not droped bcoz govt want to promote Army they were bcoz some excellent minds who were not good in study but were good in leading were left behind.

=========

please dont get me wrong but the GoPak has compromised the standards.

May to a some extinct you are right the standards were compromised in past if you say me like this ok i may agree with you, but you say that right now then i may not, in my opining now to get commision in Army is most difficult then it was in past.

you cannot judge standards in the basis of number %age an excellent student might not be a excellent leader & vice versa. i have seen many Cadets who got around 50% marks doing well then those who obtained 70-80% marks.


Regards
Wilco

 

[fatman17]

i might not agree with that .
First let me clear some points.
Right now the markes %age require is as follows:

long course = 50% for PA & 60% for PAF & navy

Graduate course = 2nd Div.(45% marks)

& the standerds were not droped bcoz govt want to promote Army they were bcoz some excellent minds who were not good in study but were good in leading were left behind.

=========


May to a some extinct you are right the standards were compromised in past if you say me like this ok i may agree with you, but you say that right now then i may not, in my opining now to get commision in Army is most difficult then it was in past.

you cannot judge standards in the basis of number %age an excellent student might not be a excellent leader & vice versa. i have seen many Cadets who got around 50% marks doing well then those who obtained 70-80% marks.


Regards
Wilco

glad to see that the standards for qualification have been rationalised. there is a need to create a balance between intelligence and behavorial attributes like leadership. i hope the ISSB has also updated or upgraded to meet the current demands.

 

[Energon]

We had lost 90.000 in East Pakistan. And army expanded rapidly to compensate. Quite a few cadets who had not yet completed the full course at the PMA were granted commision in a hurry. This definitely caused lowering of standard.

In my opinion there is an urgent need in all the Service to stress on quality rather than on quantity. Since we have an all volunteer force, there should be no need to compromise on standards, regardless of the ethnic origin of the soldier. To be politically correct may be contrary to what is good for the fighting forces.

Thank you for that well thought out reply. This certainly seems very plausible

 

[F.O.X]

i hope the ISSB has also updated or upgraded to meet the current demands.

Yes it has,


Regards
Wilco

 

[Ababeel]

It's a very well step in integarion of Pakistani society and it will play a crucial role in removing the image of "Punjabi Military" well known throughout the world.

 

[Xeric]

i don't understand that why everything has to be sensationalized when it comes to the Army!

If and only if someone would like to make use of his upper chamber these kinds of concerns would never raise.

Pakistan Army is an open merit institution with no quota system at all. The Officers and men are taken in on merit, with the exception that the troops have a certain percentage of class composition in the units. That said, it means that a certain ‘type’ of men would constitute a certain unit. A Punjab regiment might have a certain percentage of Punjabis, Sindhis, Kashmiris etc etc, similarly a Sindh regiment might have the same kind of provincial representation.

Why it is done..well use your common sense. As for a hint-Armies takes their strength from its nation…..

These set percentages have been there since the very very start. No one in the Pakistan Armed Forces (to include all the services) have ever stopped or hindered the induction process for the other ethnics in favor of Punjabis. It is only because that they(the Sindhis, Balochis etc etc) have never been interested to inducted in the military, rather they have been eyeing as an institution that was seen as a threat to them. The reason could be the a$$ kicking anti-dacoit operation in Sindh and the older operations in Balochistan. These were propagandized and people from these provinces were ‘afraid’ and unwilling to join the Army, moreover the demographic difference between any two men had also played a role in this. You and I know that Pushtoons are thick skinned and motivated but are emotional, Punjabis are not afraid of hard work but sometimes bunk on certain issues, Balochs are though and determined but need continued supervision, Sindhis are clever but don’t like hard tasks. When it comes to a profession like military many things are kept in mind before it takes in somebody. (please don’t mind if I have said something that opposes and Pakistani brother-as I am also a Proud Pakistani and not a Sindhi or Balochi or Punjabi)

Now this doesn’t mean that only a certain types of groups would be preferred for induction and the other left aside, but yes it odes mean that if anyone would not come up to the standards that are required by the military would be rejected!

ISSB centers are there in every province so how can one complain that a certain group was not being preferred? Nobody stopped them to fill in the registration form which indeed is free of cost!
I have seen waraichs as sweepers and waraichs as Brigs, Kiyanis as Lance Niaks and Kiyanis as Supreme Commanders, Jatois as Niab Subedars and Jatois as GOCs, Kakar as Cooks and Kakars as commanding Corps, SO the thing is merit, if a Rao can be a Platoon Commander in PMA, he can also be simple, telephone operator in one of the cadet colleges!

Now, coming towards the topic, Army has always welcomed anyone who can take on the challenge and face it well. May it be Sindhi or Balochi or Punjabi. The thing was open to all but if someone is not interested in joining a particular profession what can you exactly do.

Pathans are holding all the transport business in Karachi, so would you blame them that they don’t allow Punjabis to join it, or if the Memons are rich due to some particular stuff or Marris or Bugtis are strong somewhere would you blame the other caste or sect for it?

The class composition thing that I mentioned earlier was even being maintained when Balochis and Sindhis were joing the military in less numbers, but what the military did now was that it wanted more representation of these people so that these areas should also have a definite say in its ‘National Army’ and so that the poor people of these areas who either take up plundering, theft and car snatching (Sindhis in interior Sindh) and sabotage activities(Balochs) are given an alternative profession.

For this certain measures were taken, everybody knew that a Sindhi residing in Karachi or Hyderabad and a Baloch from Islamabad can easily take on a Punjabi, but a dude from interior Sindh and a person from Khuzdar can’t do it! So there was a need to do something special.

The certain steps that were taken are:
Relaxation of standards (though I personally don’t believe in it)
Providing awareness to the backward areas of the two provinces
Provision of pre-induction training (especially pre-ISSB training) to youngsters who are willing to join the army.

Now a lot of man are being recruited from these areas, nit because the Army is providing them with some special package but because they are more aware now.

A simple example that I can give is that, the area in Karachi where I belong only had one officer in the Army before I joined in. I and a friend of mine was a second batch that joined the Army, since there on, the number of people willing to join the military has increased many fold-the reason: when I joined many of my friends became interested (as I was already famous for my guud grades and people were surprised why am I joining the military). Everybody on the town was knowing that these two guys have cleared the ISSB and are going to join the Army, so more youngsters got motivated, took us as role models (though I am not one) and though that if these two ‘guud graders’ can join the military why cant we. So what was the end result: Before us (me and that friend of mine) no one ever thought of appearing in the ISSB after college, but now whether they want to join or not majority of them atleast for once try to appear in the ISSB after they finish their college, well it is just because a certain kind of a tradition has been setup, and now if you see the graph the number of inductees it has gone straight up in a few years.

So this is what is happening in Sindh and Balochistan. A dude when sees that a colleague of his comes back as an officer and he is a changed man now, what would stop him from wishing that he should also have joined the military!

Well the last words: I mentioned above about the Pre-ISSB classes, I know many of you would be stunned at it, but the fact remains that the Army prefers to bring other ‘upto ‘ to its standard rather then bringing its standards down to the level of inductees. These classes were conducted as an experiment and they were a huge success, so probably they will continue atleast in Balochistan. The Army don’t tell theme everything , but just give them a line to work on, ofcousre how can chap from Mach can compete with a guy from Lahore? So the aim is only to refine and give a direction to the boy so that he can prepare on those lines and display better results.

Here’s a link to a small news that these efforts made. If anyone require more info or pics of the event let me know:
Pre-ISSB Classes for Balochis
Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - Special ISSB classes continue for induction of Balochis in armed forces (Pakistan Defence Forum - Pak Army hai tu Pakistan hai - Welfare, Uplifts, Sacrifices and Guuds done to Pakistan)

Special ISSB classes continue for induction of Balochis in armed forces PDF Print E-mail

QUETTA, Jan 29 (APP)- In line to induct youth from Balochistan in the country’s armed forces special Pre-Inter Services Selection Board (ISSB) classes are being organised in the provincial capital Quetta.

The latest such programme for four weeks, started on Januray 12 this year, is successfully completing its stages whereby imparting skills and training to the Balochi youth drawn from all parts of the province especially those hailing from remote areas are participating.

In the last few years, special measures have been adopted for induction of Baloch youth in armed forces, which includes establishment of ISSB Centre and commencement of Pre-ISSB Training Classes at Quetta. These positive measures increased the induction of Baloch youth in Armed Forces.

Candidates from interior Balochistan are being provided with boarding and lodging facilities at the ISSB centre Quetta during training courses.

 

[Sambha]

It simply means more and more Pushtuns are going to die fighting Pakistan's enemies. Smart move by the Punjabi core, because this time it will be real bloody.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It simply means more and more Pushtuns are going to die fighting Pakistan's enemies. Smart move by the Punjabi core, because this time it will be real bloody.

So are you saying you are opposed to diversity in the demographic composition of the PA?

I like the way people like you think - originally the complaint was that the PA was entirely Punjabi dominated and by virtue of its clout ensured that Punjabis ruled Pakistan (leave alone how many non-Punjabi Presidents, Prime Ministers, generals and COAS Pakistan has had).

Now, with the PA diversifying even further, the complaint is that the Punjabis are going to use the Pashtun as cannon fodder.

You people really have no limit in your hatred for Pakistan do you? Distort and twist whatever you can.

Please troll elsewhere and goodbye.

 

[Omar1984]

Good move. Pakistan army is the most strongest, well-organized, and most respected institution in Pakistan. The army belongs to all ethnic groups of Pakistan.

 

[qsaark]

Whether PA of pre-1971 was professionally any better than the post-71 is debatable. In fact in the first ten or so years, officers were promoted like crazy. General Ayub became a Major General (1948) from a Major (1943) in about 6 years. The overall performance of the PA officers has not been impressive during the three major conflicts.

Special concessions have been made regarding the minimum height requirements for the East Pakistanis in order to encourage the fellows from the East Pakistan to join Army. In my opinion, it was a good move in the right directions. Height is obviously important but not that much, else the Vietnamese and before them the Japanese would have never made any victories in the battlefield.

I am not fully aware of other concessions, such as easing up the ISSB tests etc. If these concessions were made, that was a wrong move.

Bulk of PA (NCOs and JCOs) comes from the Potohar region, and it will remain like this. There is simply no need to change that based on the demographic reasons. Potoharis make good soldiers, are dedicated and have a tradition of joining PA.

Even for the officers, there is no need lowering the standards just to encourage people from so called ‘neglected’ provinces such as Sindh and Balochistan. I am from Balochistan, and I have witnessed a disaster in all the Government Departments/ Institutions simply because of the so called ‘quota’ system. The quota system does no good neither in short nor in long terms, it’s only a recipe of ultimate destruction of the system.

PA can establish more cadet colleges or even schools in these provinces. Simply improve the overall educational standard of the kids. That is what is needed to be done, instead of lowering the standard of the Army’s selection criteria.

Another thing that can be done is to give some kind of an equal representation to the different ethnic groups at the Corp Commanders level.

But honestly, this whole ethnic thing in the context of Pakistan Military is absurd. I don’t like to see this kind of thing creeping into our military. I am not a Punjabi, but I am more than willing to let Punjabis and Pathans run the armed forces if they are better at it than I am.

 

[blain2]

Whether PA of pre-1971 was professionally any better than the post-71 is debatable. In fact in the first ten or so years, officers were promoted like crazy. General Ayub became a Major General (1948) from a Major (1943) in about 6 years. The overall performance of the PA officers has not been impressive during the three major conflicts.

Qsaark,

I think the PA of today is in much better shape in terms of the maturity of its officers (specially senior commanders) than in any other time in the past. Ayub Khan's promotion is an anomaly as well as an aberration (primarily due to circumstances). What Ayub Khan managed to do in 20 years (promoted from a 2nd Lt to Maj Gen) takes officers of today's Army almost 35 years if not more. By the time most have made to Lt Gen, they have given close to 40 years of their lives to the Army. They have seen a lot of the Army and if you put aside some of the undeserving promotions, most when they get to the rank of Lt Gen etc. can see through a lot of BS and can command troops well having commanded formations, done staff jobs, senior officers courses at NDU (graduate level education and potentially PhD level courses - NDU offers both). So all in all "Giraen baazi" goes only so far (it does happen even now but if you look at the Pakistani society, it is a little better meshed than before even though ethnic issues have remained but Army, thank God, has kept itself insulated from these issues...a tribute to this institutions truely Pakistani character in my opinion).

Special concessions have been made regarding the minimum height requirements for the East Pakistanis in order to encourage the fellows from the East Pakistan to join Army. In my opinion, it was a good move in the right directions. Height is obviously important but not that much, else the Vietnamese and before them the Japanese would have never made any victories in the battlefield.

Height requirements can be adjusted. There is no hard and fast rule. Even in Western militaries, such adjustments are being made simply because the work is becoming more technical and can accommodate
such adjustments.

I am not fully aware of other concessions, such as easing up the ISSB tests etc. If these concessions were made, that was a wrong move.

I do not think ISSB requirements have changed. What has changed in the past is that the minimum educational requirements (percentage/grades in secondary and higher education have been relaxed in order to allow rural candidates to be able to apply. The other problem has been the downward spiral in the educational institutes since Zia's ill conceived and stupid decision to switch all the schools to urdu medium (a populist move that hurt the Pakistani educational system really badly). So now a bigger pool is able to apply, ISSB standards remain albeit English language standards have been lowered.

Bulk of PA (NCOs and JCOs) comes from the Potohar region, and it will remain like this. There is simply no need to change that based on the demographic reasons. Potoharis make good soldiers, are dedicated and have a tradition of joining PA.

This is fine, however as I have mentioned above, the nature of the work is also changing. Simply having good soldiers is not enough, now you need good, technically competent soldiers who can understand and employ new technology well. This means that maybe the recruitment needs to look beyond the usual martial areas. No doubt that potoharis make good soldiers, however relaxations in certain fields would be beneficial.

Even for the officers, there is no need lowering the standards just to encourage people from so called ‘neglected’ provinces such as Sindh and Balochistan. I am from Balochistan, and I have witnessed a disaster in all the Government Departments/ Institutions simply because of the so called ‘quota’ system. The quota system does no good neither in short nor in long terms, it’s only a recipe of ultimate destruction of the system.

Agreed quota system does not do any good, however in order to get rid of the quota system, you need to provide a level playing field to all. Be they in Punjab, Sind, NWFP or Balochistan. Unfortunately what is available to most of us in Punjab/Sind in terms of schools etc., is not the case for most in Balochistan, interior of Sind and many remote areas of NWFP.

PA can establish more cadet colleges or even schools in these provinces. Simply improve the overall educational standard of the kids. That is what is needed to be done, instead of lowering the standard of the Army’s selection criteria.

Good point. However this is the responsibility of the GoP to do this at a scale much larger than setting up Cadet colleges or Army Public Schools. The level playing field has to be available from primary school time. Universal education is the only way this can be resolved in Pakistan. However given that GoP has washed its hands off such things, I suspect we will continue to have this problem of under representation.

Another thing that can be done is to give some kind of an equal representation to the different ethnic groups at the Corp Commanders level.

I am sure some consideration is given to having a well representative body of higher commanders, however many other factors also play a part..mostly professional and some political.

But honestly, this whole ethnic thing in the context of Pakistan Military is absurd. I don’t like to see this kind of thing creeping into our military. I am not a Punjabi, but I am more than willing to let Punjabis and Pathans run the armed forces if they are better at it than I am.

I think its the right approach, however steps should be taken to provide others a shot beyond those from Punjab, Urban Sind, and settled NWFP.

 

[fatman17]

Another thing that can be done is to give some kind of an equal representation to the different ethnic groups at the Corp Commanders level.

check the history if you have the time - officers of punjabi, pathan, baluch, mohajir, memon/gujrati have all made it to general staff positions. its about merit mostly but when one gets to the rank of Brig, then the "networking" starts and generals are very loyal to their sub-ordinates and vice-versa.

musa - baluch
mitha - memon/gujrati
musharraf - urdu speaking
aslam beg - urdu speaking
sahibzada yaqoob ali khan - urdu speaking to name a few


yes, a majority of generals were/are either punjabi or pathan but this is also reflective of the traditional "recruitment base" of the army.

the talk about pathan "cannon fodder" is complete BS. army units engaged in FATA have punjabi, pathan, baloch, jawans and officers fighting side-by-side!