Would they have committed suicide otherwise? The answer is no. China has a tighter control on security and soceity. That can be good and bad. One of the good things is the benefit of weeding out these dangerous organizations.
Yah lets just take the CCP's word on it.
Should they have gone as far? Probably not, but this is a difference in perspective. You can't seriously think outlawing an organization that bans medicine, conducts self immolation, and all types of other financial scams is all bad.
A) Bans medicine? I think not: Ownby regards this as the basis for Falun Gong's apparent "opposition to practitioners' taking
medicine when ill; they are missing an opportunity to work off karma by allowing an illness to run its course (suffering depletes karma) or to fight the
illness through cultivation." Penny shares this interpretation. Since Li believes that "karma is the primary factor that causes sickness in people", Penny asks: "if disease comes from karma and karma can be eradicated through cultivation of
xinxing, then what good will medicine do?"
[18] Li himself states that he is not forbidding practitioners from taking medicine, maintaining that "What I'm doing is telling people the relationship between practicing cultivation and medicine-taking". Li also states that "An everyday person needs to take medicine when he gets sick."
[49] Schechter quotes a Falun Gong student who says "It is always an individual choice whether one should take medicine or not."
[26]
B) Self-Immolation. The Falungong say the CCP staged it, and western observers say so too. Again we should take the CCP's word on it when they had a real motive to gain traction among commoners that FalunGong were some self burning cult?
A turning point in the propaganda campaign came on the eve of
Chinese New Year on 23 January 2001, when
five people attempted to set themselves ablaze on Tiananmen Square. The official Chinese press agency,
Xinhua News Agency, and other state media asserted that the
self-immolators were practitioners, though the Falun Dafa Information Center disputed this,
[201] on the grounds that the movement's teachings explicitly forbid suicide and killing,
[202] further alleging that the event was "a cruel (but clever) piece of stunt-work."
[203] The incident received international news coverage, and video footage of the burnings were broadcast later inside China by
China Central Television (CCTV). Images of a 12-year-old girl, Liu Siying, burning and interviews with the other participants in which they stated their belief that self-immolation would lead them to paradise were shown.
[201][204] But one of the CNN producers on the scene did not even see a child there.
[205] Falun Gong sources and other commentators pointed out that the main participants' account of the incident and other aspects of the participants' behavior were inconsistent with the teachings of Falun Dafa.
[206] Media Channel and the International Education Development (IED) agree that the supposed self-immolation incident was staged by CCP to "prove" that Falun Gong brainwashes its followers to commit suicide and has therefore to be banned as a threat to the nation. IED's statement at the 53rd UN session describes China's violent assault on Falun Gong practitioners as state terrorism and that the self-immolation "was staged by the government."
[205]Washington Post journalist Phillip Pan wrote that the two self-immolators who died were not actually Falun Gong practitioners.
[207] On March 21, 2001, Liu Siying suddenly died after appearing very lively and being deemed ready to leave the hospital to go home.
[205]Time reported that prior to the self-immolation incident, many Chinese had felt that Falun Gong posed no real threat, and that the state's crackdown had gone too far. After the event, however, the mainland Chinese media campaign against Falun Gong gained significant traction.
[208] As public sympathy for Falun Gong declined, the government began sanctioning "systematic use of violence" against the group.
[209]
C) Financial scams? They would pale in the context of the massive financial scams the CCP is involved in. Better ban them too.
Where is anything about religious prosecution or censorship in Chinese constitution. Yet they do it. There's a lot of proof Falun Gong is a cult.
As you said this is a huge cult, people know about them, hence the belief.
India has these gurus, none of them calls themselves cults, yet educated Indians knows what's up. We live there, very hard to not know about the truth of it.
Nazis were welcomed at first, so were CCP, but they did bad things and now they must face up to them. Mao was for democracy at the beginning, demanding it, but as he started winning, he changed. People change.
So what exactly changed about the Falun Gong that we can gleam from non-CCP sources?
They did this in Tiananmen square. You know how many people saw this. If you been to China, there have been a lot of stories they make up and people don't believe, but nobody doubts this one.
Anyways I only brought this up because you mentioned the conspiracy theory. Having read the article, you think I wouldn't have noticed.
OK so something becomes a conspiracy theory when its not CCP-approved. Gotcha. So the whole world outside of China believes in the conspiracy theory I suppose?
I have a family member that's in this cult. She keep telling the family to quit the party or party affiliated groups. Everyone hates her. Believe me, there would be no shortage of hate for her.
There doesn't need to be a portrayal. Chinese knows Falun Gong members, one of the downsides of living there.
She speaks venom on China every chance she gets, you'll forgive me if I don't take too kindly to that. We are having an argument on India's financial well being in the other thread and that's no where as bad as what she's been saying.
So they are supposed to be in love with the CCP after the major hostilities CCP unilaterally initiated against them (for whatever reason)? Its human nature to be reactive like that....doesn't mean they would have been like this anyway if CCP was not such a control freak. CCP just made another enemy and now has to keep investing to keep them down. In the long term you can only juggle so many plates, no matter how big or powerful you are.
It isn't, that particular part is my disbelief that your entire problem with China is CCP.
Its one problem. I have many other problems, some totally nothing to do with the CCP. I also have much respect and admiration for many things related to China. Same goes for every major country in the world, including mine.
I dont ever talk in absolutes like you are trying to here.
However it goes into religious prosecution, genocide, and more.
Do you also find many supporters of those claims in India. Is it also "well above majority."
In India there exists a free and open atmosphere to talk about it and even campaign about it politically. We do not put such a high premium on enforcing absolute social stability with an iron fist....because we know such a system will eventually fail spectacularly in India. If it works for China, good for you.
But comparing is apples and oranges to a large degree. We fundamentally think quite differently from you....and have a much different political history during our civilisation. I know personally these fundamental overall differences because I have been to China and grew up a large part in Hong Kong.
You can believe what you want, but believe this, India elected Congress with 60 years of fail policies. CCP has catapulted China into what it is today. You really think they are that unstable.
How stable or unstable they are in reality does not matter. What matters is their own perception of their stability and in their own way not wanting to take a chance to "stir the pot" in some way they feel they can't accurately foresee the consequences.
So for the most part CCP is like a benevolent elder brother to its people...but it is also a control freak....that has a low opinion of their own people managing basic liberties. Hopefully that will fundamentally change with time, because otherwise China is eventually in for a world of hurt as its demography and society changes even more.
The 60 years of Congress rule in India were not absolute failure, but a relative one to the perfect situation with 20/20 hindsight. They also accomplished some successes that we take for granted....because we dont even contemplate what some of the alternatives might have looked like.
Most authoritarians need their own to support them, up to this point around 300,000 men and women within the CCP have been jailed, executed, warned or stripped of all positions. The CCP is quite stable, name me another state that can do this that is unstable. The KMT failed to do this, because of their instability right up to their ousting in 1950. ( North Korea, unfortunately is also quite stable believe it or not. )
China considers these people to be threats to the public. If you actually read their material(some they like to bury, but that huge presence in China prior to 1999 means it's widely available) it's insane and dangerous. In a formerly backwards country do you really need another group supporting lies.
It may have been harsh and taken too far, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.
I see your point. I have never said the CCP is an absolutely bad decision. The opportunity cost of their decisions of course are very fuzzy given the size of China. But if we look at say the development and system that Taiwan has today...I personally think there are many things the CCP are just too paranoid about....even accounting for the much larger size of China.
"It certainly knows the consequences of actions and factors them into decision making." This is ultimately what this is about. You feel Chinese actions with Pakistan, 1962 and other Indian ocean interests are interfering with India. If China had been an ally would you still feel the need to make these comments.
Its a very interesting question that I have asked myself many times before. If China and India were allies somehow, either by way of KMT defeating CCP (And then allying with India in some way)...or CCP and India were able to truly create the PanchSheel in reality (say India was communist and/or everything regarding 1962 was negotiated)...however it was done hypothetically....I of course naturally would have fewer issues with the CCP overall.
However I would still criticize them in many aspects, just like I would criticize Modi administration/BJP (who are my favourite party in the sense they are the least bad option).
It would have definitely been a very interesting dynamic in Asia if USSR/China/India were a massive bloc of united friendly countries during the cold war. But very complex to model hypothetically I think as many things would have turned out quite differently and they would have many unforeseeable effects today.
It cannot be just the CCP, because obviously nobody outside of China really, other than real human right advocates.
Its relative levels though. I guess I would have to live within China for an extended period of time to get a much better personal idea. I accept I have inherent biases. Everyone does to some extent.
The reason I'm pointing these out is because this is a forum to discuss issues, if every rebuttal to an argument against China is CCP. It's not as fun, so let's push that aside and just focus on the present and the future. Get to the real stuff.
We circled thousands of words to be right back to where the problem actually is.
I have no problem with media and government stance, because that's their job.
OK. Lets agree to disagree on some issues and points and move on.
