Can we trust the Americans?

[Kasrkin]

Kasrkin, you can do better than that.

I have seen the tendency in you to always question the person and not to address the contents of the post.

Its not about me damnit. Its about what I want to discuss here with you because I thought you are a serious member.

If that is what you are going to do, well good luck. No point in any more so called discussions.

And I can almost guess your response again.

LOL, and I suppose if I were to try and point out that you were the one who initiated the ‘belittling’ by implying that I am some “bravado” upstart and taking a degrading sarcastic tone in response to a light hearted joke I made…you would say I am contributing nothing to the thread and typing a lot hm? This is after all what you did last time too, when I pointed out that you were the one who initiated and prolonged that childish line of argument for which you had so conveniently put the blame me too.

I see you also choose to ‘conveniently’ completely ignore that entire bloody technical paragraph I posted to address your ridiculing of my observations, and instead claim I lack the ability to engage your posts in a mature and impersonal manner. Now what can I say to that other than given your self-confessed disability to grasp the content and nature of my posts, I’m not too surprised. Instead of trying to ‘guess’ my next posts, it would serve you well just to read the damn things properly.

So in conclusion, yes Pakistan can bloody well keep and use all of those jets even if we are not as cozy with the US as we might be at the moment. And also we can rely on Chinese technology and systems as a substitute to the US because Chinese technology is advancing, has already met many of our requirements and NO the Chinese do not bloody well rely on any American military assistance for their own military endeavors.

P.S. Very keen observation-ing darkstar.

 

[Vinod2070]

LOL, and I suppose if I were to try and point out that you were the one who initiated the ‘belittling’ by implying that I am some “bravado” upstart and taking a degrading sarcastic tone in response to a light hearted joke I made…you would say I am contributing nothing to the thread and typing a lot hm? This is after all what you did last time too, when I pointed out that you were the one who initiated and prolonged that childish line of argument for which you had so conveniently put the blame me too.

I see you also choose to ‘conveniently’ completely ignore that entire bloody technical paragraph I posted to address your ridiculing of my observations, and instead claim I lack the ability to engage your posts in a mature and impersonal manner. Now what can I say to that other than given your self-confessed disability to grasp the content and nature of my posts, I’m not too surprised. Instead of trying to ‘guess’ my next posts, it would serve you well just to read the damn things properly.

So in conclusion, yes Pakistan can bloody well keep and use all of those jets even if we are not as cozy with the US as we might be at the moment. And also we can rely on Chinese technology and systems as a substitute to the US because Chinese technology is advancing, has already met many of our requirements and NO the Chinese do not bloody well rely on any American military assistance for their own military endeavors.

P.S. Very keen observation-ing darkstar.

When I talked of bravado, it was the bravado of the post's contents and not of the person concerned.

And I did not ignore your technical comments, but the commentary surrounding both sides of that was completely unnecessary.

I think we are both accusing the other of the same thing. Let me assure you, I will not repeat this and expect the same from you going forward.

I think you are right that it makes sense for you to reduce your dependency on USA even though China's equipment may be 1/2 to 1 generation behind as its likely to be more consistently available and with fewer conditions.

But I don't agree about the 25 years part. The forces would need to start cannibalizing the planes much before that if you don't have an open pipeline for the spares and the missiles/ammo.

You just can't stockpile for 25 years (or even a decade). That would be locking good money that can be better utilized in times of cash crunch. Spares from other sources too would require a US nod and a wink at the very least.

So while seeing your point about this being an ideal scenario for Pakistan, it seems the dependence is not reducing any time soon. Especially as long as F-16s are your frontline planes.

 

[Kharian_Beast]

This is a silly question, that is the same as "Can we trust X Nationality?".

In politics, no one can be trusted.

I don't even trust Pakistani politicians.

 

[bellicose.mcbein]

I disagree with the premise that "America uses other countries and then leaves them to their fate". The US has always spent large sums of money on its friends. I am sure Pak gets billions of $ in grants, loans, aid, arms, etc.

One thing though, there is no mention of RAW in the US press. So, this is the first I am reading it anywhere!

that is my impression too. i think the Indians have their own gripes about CIA involvement that favors the Pakistanis vis a vis Kashmir. but I defer to the Indians and Pakistanis about the details of this involvement because the scope of the GWoT has been inflated by american press to such an extent as to neglect any discussion about the minutia of individual fronts like Kashmir. OIF has simply been too big a distraction for the last 5 years to give Pak (or India) the time of day.

Some of us in America, including some working in intelligence, would terminate the CIA altogether. It has a terrible track record of patchwork and overextension to the point of creating conflict where there previously was none. i am holding out hope that a President obama would at least curtail cia meddling in the internal affairs of our allies because the black community in America harbors a robust suspicion of Big Brother that the white establishment does not appreciate. ever since COINTELPRO and the 60's black nationalist movement (think Black Panther Party) blacks have harbored an almost schizophrenic paranoia towards Big Brother. Conspiracy theories abound about the cia selling drugs to blacks in urban ghettos, abducting members of black political organizations, and even assassinating martin luther king, jr and other black leaders. it is difficult to tell what is true and what is simply paranoia; regardless, barack obama by virtue of just having roots in the black community is privy to the insidious effect that shady intelligence operations have on populations in country's where cia operations are conducted, at least more than white politicians. As a corollary to this, President Obama promises the added benefit of installing a measure of trust and patriotism in the whole of the black community, and strengthening the domestic integrity of our union by quelling some of those suspicions.

Re: America's neglect of Pakistan, that may change when Obama is president. Neither he nor Joe Biden is particularly dovish about killing terrorists, even though they enjoy near-unanimous electoral support from pacifist liberals. obama has pledged to refocus our efforts on afghanistan and deploy 10,000 additional troops as we draw down from Iraq over the course of 16 months. i suspect this timeline is shorter than what will play out, but a renewed commitment to Afghanistan is pending. i can only assume this will lift some of the brunt off Pak's shoulders.

 

[haviZsultan]

that is my impression too. i think the Indians have their own gripes about CIA involvement that favors the Pakistanis vis a vis Kashmir. but I defer to the Indians and Pakistanis about the details of this involvement because the scope of the GWoT has been inflated by american press to such an extent as to neglect any discussion about the minutia of individual fronts like Kashmir. OIF has simply been too big a distraction for the last 5 years to give Pak (or India) the time of day.

Some of us in America, including some working in intelligence, would terminate the CIA altogether. It has a terrible track record of patchwork and overextension to the point of creating conflict where there previously was none. i am holding out hope that a President obama would at least curtail cia meddling in the internal affairs of our allies because the black community in America harbors a robust suspicion of Big Brother that the white establishment does not appreciate. ever since COINTELPRO and the 60's black nationalist movement (think Black Panther Party) blacks have harbored an almost schizophrenic paranoia towards Big Brother. Conspiracy theories abound about the cia selling drugs to blacks in urban ghettos, abducting members of black political organizations, and even assassinating martin luther king, jr and other black leaders. it is difficult to tell what is true and what is simply paranoia; regardless, barack obama by virtue of just having roots in the black community is privy to the insidious effect that shady intelligence operations have on populations in country's where cia operations are conducted, at least more than white politicians. As a corollary to this, President Obama promises the added benefit of installing a measure of trust and patriotism in the whole of the black community, and strengthening the domestic integrity of our union by quelling some of those suspicions.

Re: America's neglect of Pakistan, that may change when Obama is president. Neither he nor Joe Biden is particularly dovish about killing terrorists, even though they enjoy near-unanimous electoral support from pacifist liberals. obama has pledged to refocus our efforts on afghanistan and deploy 10,000 additional troops as we draw down from Iraq over the course of 16 months. i suspect this timeline is shorter than what will play out, but a renewed commitment to Afghanistan is pending. i can only assume this will lift some of the brunt off Pak's shoulders.

We're just hoping the situation turns better mate.

But we're just very very annoyed with you guys. On one side is the taliban and on another are you guys constantly pushing us. We Pakistanis feel like a prostitute stuck right in between u guys. I've lived in ur country (manhattan newyork) and i am annoyed with ur governance not the people. Some real-time confidence building measures are necessary. To destroy the terroristic assholes it is necessary that we take each other in confidence and trust each other. This war cannot be won with the suspicion that exists on both sides pushed further because of discrimination to Pakistan by your country even though we are frontline anti terror state.

And question why should India be eligible for a nuclear deal that Pakistan is not even though Pakistan needs it more and why should it be accepted as a regional power and keeper of peace in the region. These double standards by you guys are the things we particularly despise.

Also make sure you watch the movie "Body of lies" mate of Leonardo de Caprio...

It describes the situation clearly. Not only the CIA intelligence does not take us into confidence but also the American army. You guys have to understand how to deal with different people and build trust. If you cant do that then we aren't fighting the same war. You cannot go everywhere and use your influence to gain what you want and treat every other place as your "**** dada ki jageer".

Fighting terrorists and killing every one of them is very important but you guys seriously need to consider your policies that may be hurting not only Pakistanis in many cases the muslims as well.

For example even though Irans neighbor Pakistan has nukes Israel has nukes, US has nukes (used em twice in nagasaki and hiroshima) and is present right across the border in Afghanistan and Iraq so why is Iran being singled out. I have no love for Iran exept Pakistan faced sanctions on the same basis in 1998 even though our 7 times bigger and 10 times more populous neighbor had em too and was right there threatening to use em?

Can you say clearly that there is no bias here?

And then the innocent Pakistanis who suffer. I agree that every terrorist you find should be fucked upside down because they have caused great damage to the peace of the entire world but why are innocent Pakistanis like Afia Siddiqui being arrested and thrown into your jails? There are some innocent Pakistanis in Guantanamo. All these things that I have mentioned cause strains between us and our relationship.

And do watch the movie body of lies. There's no sex queen like angelina jolie like wanted b8 yaa its a good movie... wanted was good 2....

And also read The Reluctant Fundamentalist by Mohsin Hamid. Its fiction but it may describe how many Pakistanis and third world countries generally feel about USA. Point is it does'nt come to how religious or what religion a person follows. It comes down to how we feel colonized and bullied by u guys.

 

[haviZsultan]

I disagree with the premise that "America uses other countries and then leaves them to their fate". The US has always spent large sums of money on its friends. I am sure Pak gets billions of $ in grants, loans, aid, arms, etc.

One thing though, there is no mention of RAW in the US press. So, this is the first I am reading it anywhere!

I dont. If its so true why was Afghanistan abandoned after the Afghan-Soviet war was over? Pakistan is getting billions in grants loans and aid but will it last? We were getting the same aid as a sort of "bribe" during the Soviet-Afghan war. The aid ended after the war.

RAW is Indian intelligence and its mention is in the Pakistan press. Try reading anything other than the US press. Reading from one nations source leaves you unable to understand the feelings, views and opinions of other people.

CNN and Fox News are generally seen as rubbish by a very large number of Pakistanis. Try news channels like dawn news and al jazeera. You might c how people other than the Americans see the world.

RAW is supporting the Taliban in Pakistan. This is an article detailing their involvement and the proof is the militants who have admitted to it themselves:

Arrested militants name RAW, Afghan agency for funding

Wednesday October 22, 2008

LAHORE: The three arrested members of a militants’ gang especially deputed by Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan have disclosed that RAW has been funding suicide bomb attacks in Pakistan and that the Indian agency has funnelled Rs 680 million through its links with the Afghan secret agency.

The gang of three persons have brazenly admitted that they belong to the group of persons who had been deputed to ‘destabilise democratic Pakistan’ with the sole purpose of ‘enforcement of Shariah’ in the country.

Operators of an intelligence agency, working beyond the call of their duty, came into contact with a source ready for a tip-off against a reward and led to the arrest of Khurram Ishtiaq, Ghulam Mustafa and Shamim. The persons had been working under Qari Hussain, second-in-command to Baitullah Mehsud. All the three had been arrested on Aug 13 this year while they were on the prowl for a target. The militants had been arrested ‘red-handed’ as they possessed complete suicide kits, including two jackets and 70kg of explosives and detonators.

The accused were hardened militants and took a lot of time to break in and make confessions. They revealed that Qari Hussain had been working to help three adjutants—Farukh Usman alias Shahjee, Tayyab alias Baba; Ustad, the trainer to destabilise democratic government.

Qari Hussain, the leader, prepares suicide bombers and dispatches them throughout Pakistan. He also manages funds for the splinter groups from RAW which works in collusion with the Afghan intelligence agency RAM.

Farukh Usman works as Qari’s deputy and runs the sub-setup to carry out attacks in Lahore in particular and Punjab in general. He was the mastermind of suicide attacks on FIA building, Naval War College, Model Town, Lahore High Court and PAF bus in Sargodha, the investigation has revealed.

Tayyab alias Baba mainly deals with Rawalpindi/Islamabad. He was the man behind blasts at Aabpara Market and Marriott Hotel. The third person known only as Ustad is an expert of making bombs. He is said to be of Indian origin and he ‘works with a vengeance’. He is the man who leads suicide bombers to the marked site of the blast.

The investigation revealed that there are two sub-teams: three persons of one team work under Ustad. Two of the arrested persons—Shahmim Alam alias Sohail alias Kashif alias Uncle and Khurram Ishtiaq alias Ibrahim—have been active members of the TTP and worked under direct guidance of Ustad.

Shamim was the facilitator. His task was to distribute funds to suicide bombers at the behest of Qari Hussain and Tayyab@Baba. Being educated and a well-dressed civilian-look-alike, he was assigned another important job of providing ‘reconnaissance of the target area’.

He possesses the canny ability of mixing up with urbanites. Khurram Ishtiaq alias Ibrahim is a well-trained militant. His job is to harbour suicide bombers at a secret venue till they are led to the area of operation to carry out the job. The third person of this setup, Sajid, is a resident of Ali Khel, Waziristan. It is not certain whether his services were ‘utilized’ or made his escape good.

Another team which works under Farrukh Usman alias Shahjee includes Bablu, Rehan, Ghulam Mustafa @Asif (the third arrested person) and Abdul Rahim. Bablu’s assignment is to provide explosives at the nick of time when the suicide bombers have been finally prepared to perform the ‘sacred feat’.

Ghulam Mustafa and Abdul Rahim, a diehard Jehadi serve as guards and take care that none of perpetrators shows his back and become a deserter. In that case, there is only one choice left and that too leads one to heavens.

Former boss of the intelligence agency, Tariq Lodhi, had recommended a reward and commendation for the team who apprehended the culprits but they say their new boss Shoaib Suddle turned it down on the grounds that agency operators just did their job and no reward should be given for performing duty.

The team members disclosed that they had arrested two prime targets during Pervaiz Musharraf regime and they both had a head money of $5 million each but the reward money was shared by the two premier agencies instead passing it on to the individuals who had arrested them on their own initiative.

The team has long been working on the intelligence of militants but they got the culprits apprehended through a middleman who is ready to divulge more but “only if he is rewarded for the catch.”

The team claims that it could reach out to Qari Hussain and his gang and thus eliminate the danger of suicide blasts in Pakistan by 90 percent. Talking to our sources on the condition of not divulging their names, they said, “We neither have free hand nor enough resources to break the hornet’s nest.”

End.

We hope you Americans look into it rather than believing the Indian claims all the time. If we are your allies why is Indias word more than ours? They would naturally want Pakistan to be destroyed and the Taliban to suceed in their bloodthirsty murder, torture and terrorism.

Indians clearly back terrorism in balochistan, FATA, NWFP and Sindh and many areas of Pakistan and try to create division and now they are supporting murderous killers like talibani terrorists to drain Pakistani blood and destroy investor confidence in Pakistan

Also make sure you read "India doctrine" by Docter Munshi about how India is involved in terrorist activities across the world blaming innocents for them and also about how India is destabilising Pakistan Bangladesh Sri Lanka Nepal and even China.

Read articles by brillian writers like Isha Khan and some great peaceful Indian authors like Kruthi And Shweta who detail Indias involvement in terrorism and murder of innocent Pakistanis through buying the proverty stricken and weak people within pakistani population to start an insurgency.

Looking into these claims is very important. Indians are even involved in framing innocent civilians and booking them as terrorists.

 

[muse]

"trust" is no way to formulate and execute policy and Pakistan ought not indulge in these non-ultility. US is pursuing what it thinks are it's interests, Pakistan ought to pursue it's interests, cleaverly, resolutely.

In Afghanistan, Pakistan has not been clear about it's interests, in general Pakistan are timid about identifying it's interests and seem embarrased about defending their interests, perhaps it is because Pakistan are not engaging it's citizenry and channeling the development of consensus regarding it's interests.

That Pakistan has to articulate it's interests in balouchistan is ridiculous and is indicative of the insecurity it feels. Balouchistan is Pakistan and that "foreign" elements operate there is a indication of a gigantic failure. Perhaps Pakistan should remember that it must publicly reward friends and ensure that it's enemies know that they will be held accountable regardless of where they may be.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I'd say that going by this account it is patently obvious the Americans cannot be trusted, and while Muse's point about focusing on interests is valid, it is also plainly evident at this point that the US is solely focused on its own interests, and will even go the extra mile to unethically deny Pakistan funding from international financial institutions to achieve its own twisted goals.

And these guys have the gall to preach morality and rights to the rest of the world.

Sources told The News here on Monday evening that Pakistan was making strenuous efforts to get the bank decision of stalling lone to Pakistan reverted as it could have a devastating impact on its struggle to save the country from imminent default.

Pakistan’s diplomatic mission in Washington has also established contacts with the officials of the WB and Haqqani has been asked to keep Islamabad posted with the developments on regular basis, the sources said.

Diplomatic observers have reminded that the West, particularly the United States, did not receive well the consensus resolution of parliament with regard to its national security that envisaged a negotiated settlement with extremists who are prepared to lay down arms. Some of the Western capitals quietly termed the resolution an ‘undesirable verdict’ and the decision by the WB could be an offshoot of the same. Pakistan could also have to face some more pressure on this count, the observers opined.

The visiting US Assistant Secretary of State, Richard Boucher, did not mince words while expressing his reservations over Pakistan’s intention to enter into dialogue with the disgruntled elements last week and the bank’s decision could be part of the malaise to teach Islamabad a lesson for taking such ‘unacceptable’ decisions. The sources hinted that Pakistan could dispatch a high-level SOS mission to save the situation.

Pakistan goes extra mile for $ 300m WB loan

 

[DarkStar]

My reading of the situation is that Zardari miscalculated. He thought that by screaming "default" and asking for 100 billion dollars, and for pakistan to be "saved", his words would jog international friends, partners and institutions into handing Pakistan a lifeline. By doing so, he instead showed how weak Pakistan are, and a subsequent "hardening" of attitudes followed.

It should be remembered, even if you apply a loan for your home or business, if you sound poor, meek and humble, you probably won't get it. However, if you come across as strong, astute, and give the impression you don't really need it, you will surely get it.

Zardari's cry showed how desperate we were, and now US and allies are trying to leverage as much as they can, and squeeze the lemond dry, so to speak.

 

[jeypore]

"trust" is no way to formulate and execute policy and Pakistan ought not indulge in these non-ultility. US is pursuing what it thinks are it's interests, Pakistan ought to pursue it's interests, cleaverly, resolutely.

In Afghanistan, Pakistan has not been clear about it's interests, in general Pakistan are timid about identifying it's interests and seem embarrased about defending their interests, perhaps it is because Pakistan are not engaging it's citizenry and channeling the development of consensus regarding it's interests.

That Pakistan has to articulate it's interests in balouchistan is ridiculous and is indicative of the insecurity it feels. Balouchistan is Pakistan and that "foreign" elements operate there is a indication of a gigantic failure. Perhaps Pakistan should remember that it must publicly reward friends and ensure that it's enemies know that they will be held accountable regardless of where they may be.

I do disagree here that Pakistan does have an Interests, it is more of an confusion right know. Clearly the army and the elected gov't are saying two different things to the US. And to compound the situation in Pakistan further the regions and the people are not united to one cause. That leads to more fragmentation and aggrevations towards uniting to one cause. This is main bases for Pakistan to feel the world is there to fragment the country. The goal should be unit the country first.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I do disagree here that Pakistan does have an Interests, it is more of an confusion right know. Clearly the army and the elected gov't are saying two different things to the US. And to compound the situation in Pakistan further the regions and the people are not united to one cause. That leads to more fragmentation and aggrevations towards uniting to one cause. This is main bases for Pakistan to feel the world is there to fragment the country. The goal should be unit the country first.

What hogwash - what are the 'two different things" being said to the US? Where is the military currently differing from the GoP on prosecuting the WoT?

Pakistan is a multicultural and multi ethnic society, of course people are going to have differences of opinion on how to proceed on any issue, and will be disunited towards any particular cause. To argue that somehow that diversity of opinion implies 'disintegration' is ludicrous. The main basis for Think Tanks and the Western establishment (and Indians of course, lets not forget them) to speculate on 'fragmentation' remains malicious intent.

Notice how despite fissures far deeper and a society far less united and completely destroyed, we never hear the self-righteous, shameless carpet baggers of 'rights' ever discuss the 'fragmentation of Afghanistan'. It doesn't fit in with their colonialist global thuggery, in pursuit of their own selfish interests, which they then try and hide behind platitudes of a 'global economic system that benefits everyone'.

 

[jeypore]

What hogwash - what are the 'two different things" being said to the US? Where is the military currently differing from the GoP on prosecuting the WoT?

Pakistan is a multicultural and multi ethnic society, of course people are going to have differences of opinion on how to proceed on any issue, and will be disunited towards any particular cause. To argue that somehow that diversity of opinion implies 'disintegration' is ludicrous. The main basis for Think Tanks and the Western establishment (and Indians of course, lets not forget them) to speculate on 'fragmentation' remains malicious intent.

Notice how despite fissures far deeper and a society far less united and completely destroyed, we never hear the self-righteous, shameless carpet baggers of 'rights' ever discuss the 'fragmentation of Afghanistan' - it doesn't fit in with their colonialist global thuggery in pursuit of their own selfish interests, which they then try and hide behind platitudes of a 'global economic system that benefits everyone'.

Military has clearly stated the intrutions in Pakistan soil, but the Gop has shown relaxed posture and I might add appeasement. There is a big paradox of posturing to the United States.

I am nowhere in arguing that Pakistan is not a multi-cultural society, but you must admint AM that they are not together either, specifically speaking of one cause. May it be to fight the terrorist or fend off the States. Even the basic cause of being Pakistanie is in question sometimes. So your main reasoning of fragmentation of outside doing should be look at hard. Infact, quetion should be asked of national feelings first.

And your last argument about Afganistan, you may be right, since i have not read or heard in anything of that nature.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Military has clearly stated the intrutions in Pakistan soil, but the Gop has shown relaxed posture and I might add appeasement. There is a big paradox of posturing to the United States.

I am nowhere in arguing that Pakistan is not a multi-cultural society, but you must admint AM that they are not together either, specifically speaking of one cause. May it be to fight the terrorist or fend off the States. Even the basic cause of being Pakistanie is in question sometimes. So your main reasoning of fragmentation of outside doing should be look at hard. Infact, quetion should be asked of national feelings first.

And your last argument about Afganistan, you may be right, since i have not read or heard in anything of that nature.

Your point about opposing the intrusions into Pakistan is incorrect. Neither the GoP nor the PA can afford to not oppose US intrusions into Pakistan, not without suffering a severe domestic backlash. In fact, of late it has been the civilians, including PM Gillani, who have condemned US incursions vociferously, and it was the legislature that passed a unanimous resolution condemning not just ground assaults into Pakistan, but the air strikes as well.

On the issue of airstrikes, if the military wanted to it would in fact have attempted to take down the Predators. There is a lot of speculation that some of the Predators fly out of Pakistan anyway, so there is no question of the civilians offering tacit approval to the Predator strikes and the military refusing - tacit approval exists from both.

I still don't see what being united on 'one cause' has to do with anything. Like everythign else, the WoT has caused different viewpoints to emerge, and that is healthy in a democracy, though one may disagree with a particular POV.

The same with the ideology of Pakistan - conservative Muslims will see Islam as defining Pakistan, while liberals will not. Its not really that different from the tension between orthodox and liberal Jews in Israel, on what the nature of the State of Israel is, and hence they do not even have a constitution yet. Pakistan atleast has gotten that far. I do not see this as a source of 'fragmentation', but as a continued evolution of Pakistan, and a continued social discourse.

 

[muse]

Agnostic


Something else to consider with regard to funding is the absolutely dismal Pakistani record of following through with it's obligations. US knows that no sooner is a life line cast towards Pakistan that it will plead "democractic" opinion to reneg on it's commitment.

The example of Maulana Fazl ur Rahman pleading the case of the Taliban in Majlis and being rewarded by being accorded a federal ministerial rank by the premier.

On the related matter of fragmentation, it is a reality - not because of any genuine movement but because Pakistani politicians are ever ready to sell out the concept of Pakistan as a state - you will note the case of Balouchistan, and a better example is the deal the PPP made with Western powers to be rid of Musharraf.

In this neither the Indian nor the American is to be blamed asa instigator, they just avail themselves in the market of Pakistani politicians.

Mosharraf Zaidi has a a Op/Ed piece in the News Internatiomnal today arguing that Pakistan ought to be allowed to fail, it's an idea that should be considered.

We have tried authoritarian military regimes (caretakers till the politicians decide it has become profitable to "do" politics), we know that "democractic" goverance is for the birds, in Pakistan - and each failure has brought people to the brink of madness - yes, madness - unless a authoritarian regime institutionalized, with a program to deliver Pakistan as a modern state and economy, becomes a reality within the next two to five years, Pakistan will not serve any purpose other than as a concentration camp for varieties of Islamists to oversee. Consider, we are told that Pakistan are a strategic country - it's a challenge to the insult of readers to accept such a proposition - a nuclear power? that cannot control it's own territory? A modern economy with the lowest tax to GDP ratio in the WORLD.

And how many political parties?? It would be comic were it not reality and in such a situation, people in Pakistan will welcome a firm hand and a challenging vision, now it the bets are on who will have the courage to provide that firm hand - all those who have a need to be liked or loved without realizing that those emotions of the public have to be channeled, need not apply.

 

[pkpatriotic]

Can.......??? do we really have right to chose from ....Can ...or ...can't..........let suppose 'yes' then we can trust upto the extent as much as we trust on our superb political elites and their loyalty and capabilities.

Its obvious.......If we dont trust americans then why we dying for american visa..............similarly if we dont trust on politicians then why we welcome these (several times proved corrupt & criminals) politicians to provide a chance to sink the vessel of country

Simply if we get american visa as an individual of nation, then we can trust otherwise not.............while political elites doesn't have choice option.........in otherwords .....american have to chose the trustworthy person (the standards of trust fo rthis level are variable subjected to the situation, strategic & geo-political tasks) to fulfill their agenda.

Well...........to be serious it's in-fact not the matter of trust its only the matter of self-confidence, national 'Will', Vision and determination of natiional development and benefits, to set the parameters of mutual relationship for bilateral interests with real respect of each other's sovergnity and integrity.