Can the IAF Follow the Footprints of the PAF’s Glory?

[ebrahym]

making anti-national statements.

i dont think his statements were anti-state ....... although he was a bit harsh on the gulf countries but not wrong

He doesn't know the basics of aircraft and he is running around making anti-national statements.

He doesn't know about MII programs yet. He's gonna freak when he hears there is a Rafale MII program and will pull out what hair is left in him when he hears IAF will buy another jet apart from Rafale also.

well i have realized that PAF actually do prefer cost effectiveness

 

[Tipu7]

Where is the PAF glory?

What objectives they have achieved ?

Shooting inferior Indian fighter jets with some poor training?

PAF is among few air forces in World which shot down air crafts of more than THREE air forces in the World.
India, Afghan, Israel, Russian.
With 150+ kills so far, PAF record is indeed a Glory which Indian air force cannot match ............

The author highlights the loopholes in the IAF and how it could benefit if it had the same innovative and cost-benefit mindset as the PAF.

The Indian Economist on July 28, 2016



By Bharat Karnad

There’s a report about the Pakistan Air Force acquiring a squadron of Mirage 2000-5s from Qatar. But for the interventions by ACM S Tyagi (Retd)—yes, the same IAF chief since fingered in the Agusta-Westland scam, sixty of these planes would have been in the Indian fleet, a decade back. These Mirages with 80% of their operational life intact, would have speedily made up the depleting fighter squadrons Vayu Bhavan keeps bellyaching about.

Again, the PAF had a while back secured all the Mirage – IIIs/Vs they could get their hands on from anywhere, especially from richer air forces (including Australian) phasing out these aircraft. It proceeded to upgrade the radar and avionics, configuring them to fire more modern weapons. UAE has also expressed its willingness to sell Pakistan (with Saudi compensation and American OK in mind) upto two squadrons of the Mirage 2000-9s in its air force. Actually, UAE was planning on diverting 60 of this aircraft to Iraq except Baghdad has chosen to go in for Russian combat aircraft.

The PAF has long experience of handling these Mirages because its pilots regularly fly these planes for the Qatari and the Emirati air forces.

The same PAF attitude of getting something reasonably good for a small price is elsewhere coming into play with respect to the F-16. Rather than paying $270 million per plane for 8 new F-16s from the US, a squadron’s worth of this aircraft is being procured at a fraction of the cost from Jordan. It helps that the Saudis will pay for this transaction (as they have for similar deals in the past), and that it has prior approval of the US.

Washington has also agreed to help the PAF brass firm up the supply of spares for the ex-Jordanian F-16s from Ankara (via possibly the US stores prepositioned at Incirlik, the NATO air force base in southern Turkey). Moreover, these ex-Jordanian F-16s are likely to be upgraded to “Block 60 plus” level through the US-Turkey route. These Blk-60 F-16s, it is said, will be enabled to fire the Chinese-designed Ra’ad cruise missile in the PAF’s employ. Their missile, many apprehend, is outfitted with the terrain mapping technology for guidance to target on-board the US Tomahawk, which fired from a ship in the Arabian Sea against an Afghan target crash-landed in Pakistan instead, and was promptly shipped off to the Chinese, who reverse engineered the guidance system and besides equipping their own CJ series of cruise missiles, also passed it on to Pakistan for fitting on the Ra’ad.

By way of reference, the F-16 Blk-60 is what the US government and the Lockheed Martin chief, Marillyn A. Hewison, recently in New Delhi, are pushing the Modi regime to buy and manufacture locally under the aegis of the ‘Make in India’ programme.

Witness the pattern here. Petro-rich and spendthrift nations of the Gulf, more paranoid than with brains, are replacing the perfectly serviceable Mirages with the over-expensive Typhoon Eurofighter. On the other hand, the PAF, compensates for its manifest resource scarcity with innovative thinking and retrofitting older aircraft with newer radar, avionics, and weapons to have a relatively technologically in-date force at all times.

The IAF, spoiled by the Indian government sans expertise which, if it can be imagined, has even less common sense and can’t manage the inter se priorities if their lives depended on it, errs on the side of caution and even though cash starved, behaves as the Gulf states do—throwing money around for new and shiny military hardware as if there’s no tomorrow.

The IAF needs a strategy revamp to achieve greater heights. | Photo Courtesy: Visual Hunt

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has the right instincts, and sees Su-30MKIs upgraded to “super Sukhoi” level and hordes of Tejas Mk-II as the answer to IAF’s problems of sustaining fighting prowess and filling the combat squadron gap. Of course, IAF geared to always plonking for the cost-prohibitive option is pleading for 36 French Rafales (at $290 million), two squadrons of which dainty aircraft will be good for nothing except as show pieces clogging up the operational picture and, in any case, won’t make up for the declining fighter strength.

Besides every other advantage, including it being the best fighter plane in the skies today, the Super Sukhoi Su-30s can, for instance, make mincemeat of the Rafale as also the latest fighter in the US stable, the disastrous F-35 Lightening-II, which as American experts, such as Pierre Sprey, claim can’t maneuver, can’t fight, and can’t get out of harm’s way. Speedily inducting more Super Sukoi-level Su-30 squadrons will immediately ramp up many times over IAF’s fighter presence in the skies.



This to say that no matter what metric is used, there’s no getting around the Super Sukhoi Su-30 as the best, most cost-effective, no brainer choice before the Indian govt and IAF, unless one assumes that either IAF or GOI or both have brain-freeze.
This is because the Rafale or any other aircraft (F-16/F-18, Typhoon Eurofighter and Saab Gripen NG) that will be new to IAF and cannot be operationalized without the basic training, diagnostic, and maintenance infrastructure in place and which to be installed will take anything up to six years, until 2022, if the acquisition decision is made today. On the other hand, large numbers of fresh Su-30 entrants into IAF can be immediately serviced with the infrastructure already in place at a bunch of air bases all over the country. This to say that no matter what metric is used, there’s no getting around the Super Sukhoi Su-30 as the best, most cost-effective, no brainer choice before the Indian govt and IAF, unless one assumes that either IAF or GOI or both have brain-freeze.

Unless, Prime Minister Modi completely loses all perspective, rejects Parrikar’s logical thinking, and orders the Finance Minister Arun Jaitley to release funds for some Western combat aircraft buy or the other, whatever the deleterious consequences for the national interest, the only economically feasible choice is, priority-wise, to get huge numbers of Tejas Mk-II produced by Indian private sector defence companies in parallel production lines with HAL, in the air, along with super Sukhois acceleratedly manufactured at HAL, Nasik.

Bharat Karnad is a senior fellow in National Security Studies at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi. He was Member of the (1st) National Security Advisory Board and the Nuclear Doctrine-drafting Group, and author, among other books of, ‘Nuclear Weapons and Indian Security: The Realist Foundations of Strategy’, ‘India’s Nuclear Policy’ and most recently, ‘Why India is Not a Great Power (Yet)’.



http://theindianeconomist.com/paf-footprints-iaf/

This article is actually praising management policies of Pakistan air force who despite of all tough odds of Sanctions and economic limitations still in form that it can bleed any adversary to death.
Indian air force on the other hand has much more sources, is less prone to sanctions and floats in cash, always end up in ''delays & repair issues'' ............

 

[BABA AGHORI]

The so called worlds largest fourth air force, the only time it performed was in Kargil, only because there was no air opposition , it carried out missions within it's own territory in an area well known to Indian ground forces and even to do that it needed and received assistance from US and Israel.... despite tall claims and introducing fancy terminologies , it failed to show up both in 2002 and 2008.....and to add insult to injury, it goes on national TV chest thumping on an exercise only to be ridiculed by the other side.

Own territory ... .. is't is considered as disputed by Pakistan and Pakistani support operation Gibraltar and grand slam as legitimate coz it was in disputed territory and slams India to cross IB and attack Pakistan.
Anyways we appreciate your acceptance that it is an Indian territory

 

[AnnoyingOrange]

The author highlights the loopholes in the IAF and how it could benefit if it had the same innovative and cost-benefit mindset as the PAF.

The Indian Economist on July 28, 2016



By Bharat Karnad

There’s a report about the Pakistan Air Force acquiring a squadron of Mirage 2000-5s from Qatar. But for the interventions by ACM S Tyagi (Retd)—yes, the same IAF chief since fingered in the Agusta-Westland scam, sixty of these planes would have been in the Indian fleet, a decade back. These Mirages with 80% of their operational life intact, would have speedily made up the depleting fighter squadrons Vayu Bhavan keeps bellyaching about.

Again, the PAF had a while back secured all the Mirage – IIIs/Vs they could get their hands on from anywhere, especially from richer air forces (including Australian) phasing out these aircraft. It proceeded to upgrade the radar and avionics, configuring them to fire more modern weapons. UAE has also expressed its willingness to sell Pakistan (with Saudi compensation and American OK in mind) upto two squadrons of the Mirage 2000-9s in its air force. Actually, UAE was planning on diverting 60 of this aircraft to Iraq except Baghdad has chosen to go in for Russian combat aircraft.

The PAF has long experience of handling these Mirages because its pilots regularly fly these planes for the Qatari and the Emirati air forces.

The same PAF attitude of getting something reasonably good for a small price is elsewhere coming into play with respect to the F-16. Rather than paying $270 million per plane for 8 new F-16s from the US, a squadron’s worth of this aircraft is being procured at a fraction of the cost from Jordan. It helps that the Saudis will pay for this transaction (as they have for similar deals in the past), and that it has prior approval of the US.

Washington has also agreed to help the PAF brass firm up the supply of spares for the ex-Jordanian F-16s from Ankara (via possibly the US stores prepositioned at Incirlik, the NATO air force base in southern Turkey). Moreover, these ex-Jordanian F-16s are likely to be upgraded to “Block 60 plus” level through the US-Turkey route. These Blk-60 F-16s, it is said, will be enabled to fire the Chinese-designed Ra’ad cruise missile in the PAF’s employ. Their missile, many apprehend, is outfitted with the terrain mapping technology for guidance to target on-board the US Tomahawk, which fired from a ship in the Arabian Sea against an Afghan target crash-landed in Pakistan instead, and was promptly shipped off to the Chinese, who reverse engineered the guidance system and besides equipping their own CJ series of cruise missiles, also passed it on to Pakistan for fitting on the Ra’ad.

By way of reference, the F-16 Blk-60 is what the US government and the Lockheed Martin chief, Marillyn A. Hewison, recently in New Delhi, are pushing the Modi regime to buy and manufacture locally under the aegis of the ‘Make in India’ programme.

Witness the pattern here. Petro-rich and spendthrift nations of the Gulf, more paranoid than with brains, are replacing the perfectly serviceable Mirages with the over-expensive Typhoon Eurofighter. On the other hand, the PAF, compensates for its manifest resource scarcity with innovative thinking and retrofitting older aircraft with newer radar, avionics, and weapons to have a relatively technologically in-date force at all times.

The IAF, spoiled by the Indian government sans expertise which, if it can be imagined, has even less common sense and can’t manage the inter se priorities if their lives depended on it, errs on the side of caution and even though cash starved, behaves as the Gulf states do—throwing money around for new and shiny military hardware as if there’s no tomorrow.

The IAF needs a strategy revamp to achieve greater heights. | Photo Courtesy: Visual Hunt

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has the right instincts, and sees Su-30MKIs upgraded to “super Sukhoi” level and hordes of Tejas Mk-II as the answer to IAF’s problems of sustaining fighting prowess and filling the combat squadron gap. Of course, IAF geared to always plonking for the cost-prohibitive option is pleading for 36 French Rafales (at $290 million), two squadrons of which dainty aircraft will be good for nothing except as show pieces clogging up the operational picture and, in any case, won’t make up for the declining fighter strength.

Besides every other advantage, including it being the best fighter plane in the skies today, the Super Sukhoi Su-30s can, for instance, make mincemeat of the Rafale as also the latest fighter in the US stable, the disastrous F-35 Lightening-II, which as American experts, such as Pierre Sprey, claim can’t maneuver, can’t fight, and can’t get out of harm’s way. Speedily inducting more Super Sukoi-level Su-30 squadrons will immediately ramp up many times over IAF’s fighter presence in the skies.



This to say that no matter what metric is used, there’s no getting around the Super Sukhoi Su-30 as the best, most cost-effective, no brainer choice before the Indian govt and IAF, unless one assumes that either IAF or GOI or both have brain-freeze.
This is because the Rafale or any other aircraft (F-16/F-18, Typhoon Eurofighter and Saab Gripen NG) that will be new to IAF and cannot be operationalized without the basic training, diagnostic, and maintenance infrastructure in place and which to be installed will take anything up to six years, until 2022, if the acquisition decision is made today. On the other hand, large numbers of fresh Su-30 entrants into IAF can be immediately serviced with the infrastructure already in place at a bunch of air bases all over the country. This to say that no matter what metric is used, there’s no getting around the Super Sukhoi Su-30 as the best, most cost-effective, no brainer choice before the Indian govt and IAF, unless one assumes that either IAF or GOI or both have brain-freeze.

Unless, Prime Minister Modi completely loses all perspective, rejects Parrikar’s logical thinking, and orders the Finance Minister Arun Jaitley to release funds for some Western combat aircraft buy or the other, whatever the deleterious consequences for the national interest, the only economically feasible choice is, priority-wise, to get huge numbers of Tejas Mk-II produced by Indian private sector defence companies in parallel production lines with HAL, in the air, along with super Sukhois acceleratedly manufactured at HAL, Nasik.

Bharat Karnad is a senior fellow in National Security Studies at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi. He was Member of the (1st) National Security Advisory Board and the Nuclear Doctrine-drafting Group, and author, among other books of, ‘Nuclear Weapons and Indian Security: The Realist Foundations of Strategy’, ‘India’s Nuclear Policy’ and most recently, ‘Why India is Not a Great Power (Yet)’.



http://theindianeconomist.com/paf-footprints-iaf/

So... OP picks up a source that has picked up a story form another source.. and doctored the title to make it controversial... and i believe the OP never even read the entire article before posting it here... and the rest follow the suit...

By the way ... here is the original article.. that was written on July 23rd. https://bharatkarnad.com/2016/07/23/wish-iaf-had-pafs-innovative-cost-benefit-mindset/

 

[randomradio]

i dont think his statements were anti-state ....... although he was a bit harsh on the gulf countries but not wrong

He insults the IAF at every turn.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Well, IAF always had a numerical and qualitative edge over PAF.

Qualitative? Presumably you can read about the evolution of the PAF. It's on public record.

The so called worlds largest fourth air force, the only time it performed was in Kargil, only because there was no air opposition , it carried out missions within it's own territory in an area well known to Indian ground forces and even to do that it needed and received assistance from US and Israel.... despite tall claims and introducing fancy terminologies , it failed to show up both in 2002 and 2008.....and to add insult to injury, it goes on national TV chest thumping on an exercise only to be ridiculed by the other side.

Windy, you're in good form today. Apart from, um, making loud windy reports, your post above said nothing.

1. How exactly, o military genius, does terrain well-known to ground forces translate into an advantage for air forces? Especially when the ground forces in question are no longer in possession?
2. What was the nature of the assistance from the US and from Israel? Are you hinting that their pilots came and flew the planes for India? I wouldn't put it past you. You have a marvellous capacity for shooting the line.
3. One idiot talks to ex-servicemen and tells them how easy things will be in future, and you go for it hook, line and sinker.

What's the matter, business not going too well after Brexit?

 

[.]

The so called worlds largest fourth air force, the only time it performed was in Kargil, only because there was no air opposition , it carried out missions within it's own territory in an area well known to Indian ground forces and even to do that it needed and received assistance from US and Israel.... despite tall claims and introducing fancy terminologies , it failed to show up both in 2002 and 2008.....and to add insult to injury, it goes on national TV chest thumping on an exercise only to be ridiculed by the other side.

IAF has come a long way I'm sure they're better than their yesteryear's .I accept that as a Pakistani Looking at what they've got,I for once don't doubt that IAF today has an edge over PAF.
I hope Pakistanis don't be fools and take Indian airforce lightly that's all

 

[Windjammer]

Qualitative? Presumably you can read about the evolution of the PAF. It's on public record.



Windy, you're in good form today. Apart from, um, making loud windy reports, your post above said nothing.

1. How exactly, o military genius, does terrain well-known to ground forces translate into an advantage for air forces? Especially when the ground forces in question are no longer in possession?
2. What was the nature of the assistance from the US and from Israel? Are you hinting that their pilots came and flew the planes for India? I wouldn't put it past you. You have a marvellous capacity for shooting the line.
3. One idiot talks to ex-servicemen and tells them how easy things will be in future, and you go for it hook, line and sinker.

What's the matter, business not going too well after Brexit?

@Joe Shearer

Oh well the imported so called professional strikes again or shall we say solicits for his bunch, pity the Pakistani counterparts are never this active but then we are not all unemployed....what to say for Brexit.... what the hell cheap shots and brownies keep some of us huffing and puffing.
Well my self centred professional, despite Indian media being present behind every Kargil rock and boulder, i believe there were Indian posts and bunkers on those hills which were occupied by other forces, like anywhere else, their position would have been well marked on the maps or any other navigational equipment, it may surprise your frivolous nature that when say supplies are dropped in places like Siachin, i believe they don't exactly look for a dry spot.
As for assistance, well it's obvious dementia is taking it's toll on the professional mind, do satellite imagery, LGBs etc ring any bells... we have been there before so please don't expect others to be suffering from same symptoms.
As for the rest of your habitual rants, i think some other members have tried their best to remind you of your standing so i will pass on it....since whatever you have become, at least you were a teacher once....hence......

So... OP picks up a source that has picked up a story form another source.. and doctored the title to make it controversial... and i believe the OP never even read the entire article before posting it here... and the rest follow the suit...

By the way ... here is the original article.. that was written on July 23rd. https://bharatkarnad.com/2016/07/23/wish-iaf-had-pafs-innovative-cost-benefit-mindset/

I believe there was a link to the article i posted, one should sometimes make an effort to click on it, it doesn't exactly requires a genius to work out, whether the article or the headline was amended by the OP or the author but then if some had a brain, they would be dangerous.

 

[Blue Marlin]

This man is pretty stupid when it comes to aircraft.

What does he think the IAF has been doing for so many years when he says this...
Witness the pattern here. Petro-rich and spendthrift nations of the Gulf, more paranoid than with brains, are replacing the perfectly serviceable Mirages with the over-expensive Typhoon Eurofighter. On the other hand, the PAF, compensates for its manifest resource scarcity with innovative thinking and retrofitting older aircraft with newer radar, avionics, and weapons to have a relatively technologically in-date force at all times.

...with the Mig-21 Bison program, Mig-27UPG, Mig-29UP, M-2000UPG and Jaguar DARIN programs?

IAF is upgrading old jets and buying new jets.

Stop taking money from the Russians, old man. Your articles look like they are all paid articles.

im guessing your one of the pro rafale lobbyists here.

He insults the IAF at every turn.

so...... no organisation is bright eyed and bushy tailed heck even pakistan too even us look at our typhoons avaliability rates older t1's are being stripped for parts to keep the new birds in the air.

 

[MilSpec]

Cost effectiveness of PAF is unparalleled and I have maintained this for a very long time, there are lessons for the IF to learn in this arena of how to get the most bang for it's buck as PAF does with it's limited resources.

 

[AnnoyingOrange]

@Joe Shearer
I believe there was a link to the article i posted, one should sometimes make an effort to click on it, it doesn't exactly requires a genius to work out, whether the article or the headline was amended by the OP or the author but then if some had a brain, they would be dangerous.

Did you really read and understand the article ... I doubt... but then again.. we poor Indians don't have great understanding as some of you guys ... and our brains are oohhh so dead... so dead that we could clearly understand that the author is suggesting that Indian Air Force should stop behaving like a spoilt brat and augment capabilities using infrastructure and skill that are easily available In India... ad how Indian defense Minister is doing exactly that as he modernizes India defense forces... and how even Prime Minister of India should Support Indian defence Minister... and oh... that brings me to one question... who is Pakistan's defense Minister.. and does he even have a iota of contribution in decision making.... like the ones where PA just decided to hand over a border post to Afghanistan.

 

[MilSpec]

The so called worlds largest fourth air force, the only time it performed was in Kargil, only because there was no air opposition ,

Well, that was the nature of the conflict, Your Airforce chose to sit out and see their ground forces to be blown to bits, (not for the first time though) Were they waiting for an invite?

it carried out missions within it's own territory in an area well known to Indian ground forces and even to do that it needed and received assistance from US and Israel.... despite tall claims and introducing fancy terminologies , it failed to show up both in 2002 and 2008.....and to add insult to injury, it goes on national TV chest thumping on an exercise only to be ridiculed by the other side.

And you should be thanking your angels that they did not show up... every-time they do, your country endures a dictator for a decade as an aftermath of drubbing.

 

[Windjammer]

Well, that was the nature of the conflict, Your Airforce chose to sit out and see their ground forces to be blown to bits, (not for the first time though) Were they waiting for an invite?

We invaded your area killed so many that you ran out of coffins, what stopped you from crossing over and attacking Pakistani positions....yea the Indian mentality, come to my house and I'll fight you.

And you should be thanking your angels that they did not show up... every-time they do, your country endures a dictator for a decade as an aftermath of drubbing.

Talking nonsense doesn't cost a dime, 1965, General Ayub was in charge and 1971 it was General Yayha ....so where did you pull that out from.... Think Tanks.

 

[randomradio]

im guessing your one of the pro rafale lobbyists here.

Don't know what this has to do with Canard. His articles are as close to Harry Potter as it can get.

so...... no organisation is bright eyed and bushy tailed heck even pakistan too even us look at our typhoons avaliability rates older t1's are being stripped for parts to keep the new birds in the air.

I don't think you have read enough of his Pulitzer standard fiction.

You think there is truth in what he said here-
The IAF, spoiled by the Indian government sans expertise which, if it can be imagined, has even less common sense and can’t manage the inter se priorities if their lives depended on it, errs on the side of caution and even though cash starved, behaves as the Gulf states do—throwing money around for new and shiny military hardware as if there’s no tomorrow.

He has an agenda and you fail to see it. How has he decided that IAF is cash starved? If we are doing what the Gulf states do, then how can he explain the multiple upgrade programs going on right now?

Apparently, only he has common sense. Maybe he is yet to learn he needs facts first before he applies his common sense.

 

[MilSpec]

We invaded your area killed so many that you ran out of coffins, what stopped you from crossing over and attacking Pakistani positions....yea the Indian mentality, come to my house and I'll fight you.

It was a unexpected pest infestation, and yes we did run out of coffins, Because we actually need coffins for our fallen soldiers. We are not the ones who abandon and disown the brave soldiers and officers who fought and died for our cause. I am sure your army saved money there, no bodies, no coffins. BTW some of those coffins were for your boys too...

Talking nonsense doesn't cost a dime, 1965, General Ayub was in charge and 1971 it was General Yayha ....so where did you pull that out from.... Think Tanks.

It would take a bit a of grey matter to understand, what consolidation of power means,and I don't expect you to get this, this wasn't meant specifically for you....