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Can Saudi Arabia Create an Indigenous Defense Industry?

Why should every thread in here be turned into either a Saudi- Iranian dick measuring contest or just a troll flamewar? Can't all idiots just for once try to ignore it and to not write any bullshit. This thread has the potential to be an interesting one as I am really interested to see what Saudi Arabia achieved and wants to achieve in it defence industry. Even though I am not a fan of Saudi Arabia's politics I think it has the potential to develop a strong weapon industry. They have the money to finance it and the young population to develop it so it all comes to the one thing- do their rulling elite really have the ambitions to invest in an educational system that produces good engineers and scientists. Saudi Arabia invests a lot in developing it's education system. A lot of Saudi students are already studying in the best universities in the West so I think that if their leaders really want it they will achieve it.

ps Hope Turkey invests more in it's education and science as the results we have achieved are poor. Maybe better than in other Muslim countries but we should aim higher to the standarts of Western Europe, Japan, Korea, Australia and even China. The Middle East will be a much better place if Religion is put on second place- after education and science.
 
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@Attila the Hun

What is it about you and oil? Who has said otherwise or even the same here? Oil and gas riches have had its positives as well as its negatives (Dutch Disease).

However oil and gas has nothing to do with the fact that our Semitic ancestors and that of modern-day Arabs basically created the notion of science itself. Writing, the wheel, mathematics, the first alphabet, the zero, agriculture, the first cities, the first civilizations and the first monuments of any worth. As well as the first recorded religions.

That was long before anyone had heard about oil and gas.

Arabs created 3 of the 11 largest empires in history, more than any other ethnic group in the top 15, as well as numerous influential kingdoms, sultanates, emirates, imamates and sheikdoms on 3 continents (Asia, Africa and Europe).

That was long before anyone had heard about oil and gas.

Arabs ruled the Caliphate for almost 1000 years and much of the Muslim world.

That was long before anyone had heard about oil and gas.

Arabs have been some of the most influential people in history.

That was accomplished long before anyone had heard about oil and gas.

Arabs were some of the richest people in the ancient world when they dominated the incense trade and had monopoly on spices and other valuable goods that were imported by Europeans until the European Age of Discovery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incense_Route

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ocean_trade

Read and learn.

Ironically the Arab world became neglected during the Ottomans who preferred to invest in Turkey and nearby Balkans. However despite that 50% of the Arab world was independent and you had many rich Arab kingdoms such as Morocco and Oman that were imperial powers of their own, in particular Oman that controlled lands in modern-day Iran, Pakistan and most of the coastal regions of Eastern Africa. Swahili coastline. Swahili being an Arab word meaning "language of the coast".

And while Arabia and the Arab world was not as rich 100 years ago as it is today, we were still doing better than most of the Muslim world. Famines, widespread wars were very rare if not non-existent and most of us had our own independence and self-rule.

In fact forget about oil and gas which was discovered by Europeans/Westerners in both the Arab world, Iran and elsewhere.

What we enjoy today and everyone else in the world is largely thanks to 500 years of European dominance and their inventions. It's not do to anyone else and certainly not Turkey, Pakistan, Iran, KSA, Indonesia etc.

You think that your average Anatolian villager lived any different than your average villager in say Najd or Central Iran? Or China 150 years ago? I have a revelation for you. That was not the case.

So false-flagger, kindly change your disc.

Also reread my post closely before you make empty claims of what I have said or accuse me of anything. Also recall who and which individuals started such discussions and the trolling. Hint, no Arab user.

Anyway I know that you are not a Turk and I have done my utmost not to reply in racial terms and remarks as you have done because I know, as I said, that you are a non-Turk whose sole intention here is to create hostility between peoples of varies origins. So I will ignore you for now.

Need to spend more on R&D Science...

KSA has TONS of things to improve but we are doing (overall) not too bad and actually improving on all fronts by each year and while the situation could be better it could also be worse. What's better we have a lot of non-fulfilled potential, one of the youngest populations percentage wise in the world, a growing population, a lot of money to invest in and a lot of rather easy steps (change of moronic laws and change of politics that frankly are easier to implement in absolute monarchies than democracies on many fronts) so I am hopeful about the future.

I can already see significant changes within just 1 generation which is the case in every developing country.

Anyway nobody claims that KSA is a self-sufficient military power however it is not a Somalia or what the few ignorant trolls in this thread have tried to paint it as. Surprise by not using any sources and despite I (rather the sources I have used) proving them wrong.
 
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@Attila the Hun

What is it about you and oil? Who has said otherwise or even the same here? Oil and gas riches have had its positives as well as its negatives (Dutch Disease).

However oil and gas has nothing to do with the fact that our Semitic ancestors and that of modern-day Arabs basically created the notion of science itself. Writing, the wheel, mathematics, the first alphabet, the zero, agriculture, the first cities, the first civilizations and the first monuments of any worth. As well as the first recorded religions.

That was long before anyone had heard about oil and gas.

Arabs created 3 of the 11 largest empires in history, more than any other ethnic group in the top 15, as well as numerous influential kingdoms, sultanates, emirates, imamates and sheikdoms on 3 continents (Asia, Africa and Europe).

That was long before anyone had heard about oil and gas.

Arabs ruled the Caliphate for almost 1000 years and much of the Muslim world.

That was long before anyone had heard about oil and gas.

Arabs have been some of the most influential people in history.

That was accomplished long before anyone had heard about oil and gas.

Arabs were some of the richest people in the ancient world when they dominated the incense trade and had monopoly on spices and other valuable goods that were imported by Europeans until the European Age of Discovery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incense_Route

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ocean_trade

Read and learn.

Ironically the Arab world became neglected during the Ottomans who preferred to invest in Turkey and nearby Balkans. However despite that 50% of the Arab world was independent and you had many rich Arab kingdoms such as Morocco and Oman that were imperial powers of their own, in particular Oman that controlled lands in modern-day Iran, Pakistan and most of the coastal regions of Eastern Africa. Swahili coastline. Swahili being an Arab word meaning "language of the coast".

And while Arabia and the Arab world was not as rich 100 years ago as it is today, we were still doing better than most of the Muslim world. Famines, widespread wars were very rare if not non-existent and most of us had our own independence and self-rule.

In fact forget about oil and gas which was discovered by Europeans/Westerners in both the Arab world, Iran and elsewhere.

What we enjoy today and everyone else in the world is largely thanks to 500 years of European dominance and their inventions. It's not do to anyone else and certainly not Turkey, Pakistan, Iran, KSA, Indonesia etc.

You think that your average Anatolian villager lived any different than your average villager in say Najd or Central Iran? Or China 150 years ago? I have a revelation for you. That was not the case.

So false-flagger, kindly change your disc.

Also reread my post closely before you make empty claims of what I have said or accuse me of anything. Also recall who and which individuals started such discussions and the trolling. Hint, no Arab user.

Anyway I know that you are not a Turk and I have done my utmost not to reply in racial terms and remarks as you have done because I know, as I said, that you are a non-Turk whose sole intention here is to create hostility between peoples of varies origins. So I will ignore you for now.



KSA has TONS of things to improve but we are doing (overall) not too bad and actually improving on all fronts by each year and while the situation could be better it could also be worse. Nobody claims that KSA is a self-sufficient military power however it is not a Somalia or what the few trolls in this thread have tried to paint. Surprise by not using any sources and despite I (rather the sources I have used) proving them wrong.
True, KSA situation is improving but I don't like the fact that they have so much money but little spending on science and R&D they ought to allocate more money to this..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_research_and_development_spending
 
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True, KSA situation is improving but I don't like the fact that they have so much money but little spending on science and R&D they ought to allocate more money to this..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_research_and_development_spending

That Wikipedia page is not accurate. Anyone can use Wikipedia and write whatever they want to. I can write an entire article about a topic using solely 1 source (PressTV for instance) and paint a widely different picture than the one most media would.

This article below, I have posted it a few times in this thread already, is more up to date (April 2016) and uses official date.

Actually KSA has spent a lot of money on just that exactly in recent times but obviously this could increase much more and should increase.

Written by Nature which is one of the most respected science magazines out there.

Oiling the wheels on a road to success
Pakinam Amer
Nature 532,

Published online
27 April 2016

With the benefit of a sustainable plan and the funds to back it, Saudi Arabia is aiming high.
Saudi Arabia's scientific development may be in its infancy, but the oil-rich Kingdom is making strides in terms of research investment and publication — with a clear ambition to one day join those in the highest echelons.

532S13a-i1.jpg

KAUST students embark on a new school year with a commencement ceremony. The relatively new university has quickly made an impact on the Nature Index.

In 2012, Saudi Arabia had a weighted fractional count (WFC) of 52.84 in the index, sitting behind Turkey, Iran, Mexico, Chile and South Africa. In four years it rose 86.8% to reach a WFC of 98.67, leapfrogging all these countries to compete with Chile and Argentina globally. Saudi Arabia ranks at number 31 in the world in terms of WFC — up from 39 in 2012.

The country has risen even higher in specific subject areas. In chemistry, for example, it has surpassed countries with a strong scientific impact like Finland and Ireland, with its WFC rising to 66.54, achieving almost a three-fold increase from its position in 2012.

Institutionally, the country's leading science hub King Abdullah University of Science and Technology (KAUST) made an impressive leap in its WFC between 2012 and 2015, carving a place for itself to compete with American and European research powerhouses.


In just four years, its WFC has risen to become higher than those of prestigious institutions including the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN), Brookhaven National Laboratory (BNL), the University of Georgia, United States, and Dresden University of Technology, Germany, to name a few. The output of all of these institutions dwarfed KAUST's in 2012, but KAUST's impressive trajectory since then has seen its WFC shoot to 72 in 2015, overtaking these heavy-hitters.

The country's science development ambitions have been backed by action. Since 2008, the country has embarked on a multi-tiered strategy that will see the Kingdom overhaul its science infrastructure, build high-spec labs, secure grants for research in priority areas in applied science, and link science to industries that drive the economy.

The strategy, broken into four stages to be implemented by 2030, aims to eventually “see Saudi Arabia become a leader in Asia and give it an economic power based on science,” says Abdulaziz Al-Swailem, vice president of scientific research support at King Abdulaziz City for Science and Technology (KACST).

532S13a-i2.jpg

The Saudi Human Genome Project will sequence 100,000 human genomes to conduct biomedical research in the Saudi population.

Saudi Arabia's march to the top
Saudi Arabia's efforts to boost its scientific research have been paying off, with its output in the Nature Index (WFC) rising steadily over the years. The two graphs below highlight Saudi Arabia's rise compared to other nations, both overall and for chemistry.

Overall output
In 2012 Saudi Arabia's overall output in the index was below all the countries shown, but continuous efforts have seen the Kingdom's WFC rise to overtake them all in 2015.




Chemistry
More marked than its overall rise, Saudi Arabia has made great strides in chemistry. After accelerated growth, which saw the Kingdom's chemistry WFC triple since 2012, it has outshone many larger players in the field in 2015.




The Kingdom's science investments focus on applied research that feeds directly into the country's industrial interests, particularly the oil and energy sector. But even in its strong subjects, chemistry and the physical sciences, Saudi Arabia's WFC remains modest compared to big players in Asia like China, Japan and South Korea.


To truly swim comfortably with these bigger fish, Saudi Arabia may benefit from looking at successful emerging economies in Asia.

One inspiration could be India. In addition to multi-disciplinary scientific and technical advancements that have improved its output in the index from 736.5 to 901.4 in the past four years, the subcontinental giant has joined the exclusive club of countries that have launched successful space missions.

Like Saudi Arabia, India's leading research institutes focus on chemistry, and their total output currently outstrips their Saudi Arabian counterparts by almost a factor of seven (the latter surpassing 472 in 2015, while the former is 66.5).

India's prowess in chemistry is something that Saudi Arabia can aspire to, considering that working conditions for researchers in the Kingdom are more conducive.

India's science ecosystem is far from perfect. Research funding cannot keep up with inflation and a general slowdown in the country's economy. In addition, commentators from the research community say the funding processes are lengthy, bureaucratic, and provide little feedback when applications for grants are turned down. Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia's healthy stream of oil revenue provides assured funding for the country's state-of-the-art research facilities.

While India has slightly increased spending and dedicated US$1.19 billion for the next fiscal year (2016–2017) for science, it has around 700 universities and 200,000 full-time researchers drawing on the same funding pot. By contrast, Saudi Arabia has pledged an education and training budget of US$50.9 billion for next year, which includes higher education and scientific research. With a total population of just 30 million, it has a much lower number of full-time researchers competing for the available resources.

Another impressive trajectory that Saudi Arabia might look to emulate is that of Singapore, which has a smaller population as well and has managed to climb high in the index. Like the Kingdom, Singapore also has a focus on chemistry research, and it has put together a similar top-down national science strategy for research institutes across the country. Both countries have strong collaborations with top universities around the world and are welcoming of foreign researchers in their efforts to drive innovation.

Mansour Alghamdi, director of the general directorate of scientific awareness and publishing at KACST, is optimistic that Saudi Arabia can bridge the large gap that currently exists in the volume of scientific output between it and such countries as India and Singapore.

“The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has a clear plan to do so and it has the resources,” he says.


Future growth
An internationally rising star

This graph shows KAUST's rise compared to a selection of other institutions*.
*Institutions shown are those that were furthest above KAUST in 2012, have experienced overall growth in WFC by 2015 and have been overtaken by KAUST in 2015. For clarity, only 2012 and 2015 data points are shown.

532S13a-g3.jpg


In 2012, Saudi's ranking in research output, with a WFC of 52.8, meant it was comparable with countries like South Africa, Turkey and Iran, all hovering around the 60–70 mark. Its WFC stood way below countries like Mexico, Hungary, Chile, Greece and Argentina.

532S13a-i3.jpg

Saudi Arabian researchers benefit from cutting-edge labs and generous funding that has boosted the country's R&D.

Four years later, the country's research outlook is very different and it is surpassing countries like Argentina, Mexico and Hungary in the index, and levelling the playing field with Chile. Chemistry research led the country's rapid rise to surpass these countries, but its life sciences and physical sciences WFCs of 8.5 and 31.5 still lag behind.

However, the Kingdom's AC has been steadily growing in these two fields over the past four years, hinting at the ever-increasing significance of international collaborations. It seems that Saudi Arabian researchers are casting their nets ever wider and are participating in publishing more articles, to the detriment of the WFC accredited for these articles.


Though international collaboration has proved fruitful, Saudi Arabia must keep a focus on nurturing home-grown talent, says Nasser Al-Aqeeli, dean of research at King Fahd University of Petroleum & Minerals (KFUPM), based in Dhahran's 'techno valley' in the eastern region of the Kingdom. In the next five years, he says, the country will focus on a programme for national capacity building.

A good first step was the Saudi government's decision to create a large scholarship programme in 2005, arguably the largest in the world, which has seen more than 200,000 young Saudi Arabians studying abroad. This makes Saudi Arabian students in the United States the fourth largest bloc of expatriate students, following those of China, India and South Korea. The government hopes these students will come back and drive a scientific culture in the country.
Saudi Arabia is also looking to increase its applied research focus, which is an integral part of the current phase of its national science strategy, while securing good funding for basic research as well. Al-Aqeeli says that Saudi's journey involves what he termed a “self-correcting mechanism” where the country is having a slow start in high-impact research, but a more sustainable one. An eventual future move towards basic research might help Saudi Arabia's research capacity to mature.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v532/n7600_supp_ni/full/532S13a.html

@Horus this thread is a repost and has evolved into trolling besides threads that deal with Arab military are supposed to be strictly posted on the Arab section of PDF just like all non-military related matters in the Arab section are to be posted on this section.

@WebMaster

Why should every thread in here be turned into either a Saudi- Iranian dick measuring contest or just a troll flamewar? Can't all idiots just for once try to ignore it and to not write any bullshit. This thread has the potential to be an interesting one as I am really interested to see what Saudi Arabia achieved and wants to achieve in it defence industry. Even though I am not a fan of Saudi Arabia's politics I think it has the potential to develop a strong weapon industry. They have the money to finance it and the young population to develop it so it all comes to the one thing- do their rulling elite really have the ambitions to invest in an educational system that produces good engineers and scientists. Saudi Arabia invests a lot in developing it's education system. A lot of Saudi students are already studying in the best universities in the West so I think that if their leaders really want it they will achieve it.

ps Hope Turkey invests more in it's education and science as the results we have achieved are poor. Maybe better than in other Muslim countries but we should aim higher to the standarts of Western Europe, Japan, Korea, Australia and even China. The Middle East will be a much better place if Religion is put on second place- after education and science.

Well said.

Because PDF is PDF. You can rarely have an interesting discussion without at least a few trolls ruining it and hordes of people commenting on topics that they have no clue about.

@WebMaster

Can I request a ban until August 2017? I have a lot of tasks to do and accomplish in the next 6 months and wasting my time on PDF in its current state is a waste of time for me. Quite frankly I am also tired of engaging with trolls whose sole purpose here is to provoke others and start senseless discussions.

Make that until January 2018 actually. Thanks in advance.
 
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Can I request a ban until August 2017? I have a lot of tasks to do and accomplish in the next 6 months and wasting my time on PDF in its current state is a waste of time for me. Quite frankly I am also tired of engaging with trolls whose sole purpose here is to provoke others and start senseless discussions.

Make that until January 2018 actually. Thanks in advance.

Don't get banned man, your posts are highly informative and interesting to read.

You've gotta realize this forum is used as a platform for "flame-baiting". And really the only way to beat this problem is to report it and then ignore it.
 
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Don't get banned man, your posts are highly informative and interesting to read.

You've gotta realize this forum is used as a platform for "flame-baiting". And really the only way to beat this problem is to report it and then ignore it.

I know and I should have realized that ages ago. Of course I was always aware of this but I should not have taken part in too many of such discussions as they are a complete waste of time. However I really can't afford wasting my time on PDF in the future. Therefore either my request is meet or I will have to change my password into "asdsadasdasfsaf" (that kind of password) and my email into an imaginary one. This would be a final solution so to speak and currently the only right one.

I wish all my friends here the best in their future errands. I especially wish the few remaining Arab users good luck. You will need it. Take care.
 
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Well said.

Because PDF is PDF. You can rarely have an interesting discussion without at least a few trolls ruining it and hordes of people commenting on topics that they have no clue about.

@WebMaster

Can I request a ban until August 2017? I have a lot of tasks to do and accomplish in the next 6 months and wasting my time on PDF in its current state is a waste of time for me. Quite frankly I am also tired of engaging with trolls whose sole purpose here is to provoke others and start senseless discussions.

Make that until January 2018 actually. Thanks in advance.

Hey man, just ignore the haters, I enjoy your posts. Plus your like one of the few Arabs left on this forum, it seems like we are a dying breed in this forum.


Just press the ignore button for Arab-Bashers.
 
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I know and I should have realized that ages ago. Of course I was always aware of this but I should not have taken part in too many of such discussions as they are a complete waste of time. However I really can't afford wasting my time on PDF in the future. Therefore either my request is meet or I will have to change my password into "asdsadasdasfsaf" (that kind of password) and my email into an imaginary one. This would be a final solution so to speak and currently the only right one.

I wish all my friends here the best in their future errands. I especially wish the few remaining Arab users good luck. You will need it. Take care.

I want to petition the forum administration to have an Arab moderator. This problem used to affect us a lot too until we got our own moderators, same with the Iranian and Turkish sections.

I'll start a thread in GHQ tomorrow on this topic.
 
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which Arab would you prefer to be a mod?

Maybe I'm not qualified to make such a suggestion, but I think most of the Arabs that I have interacted with on this forum would be good choices.

I'll start a thread in GHQ tomorrow. But this is surely a topic that has come up before, so don't expect too much. Most likely it will remain on the "to-do" pile.
 
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Maybe I'm not qualified to make such a suggestion, but I think most of the Arabs that I have interacted with on this forum would be good choices.

I'll start a thread in GHQ tomorrow. But this is surely a topic that has come up before, so don't expect too much. Most likely it will remain on the "to-do" pile.

If @Saif al-Arab decides to stay, I think he would be an amazing mod for the Arab forum.

He makes wonderful posts and is quite detailed. I think the Middle east and Africa forum would become a lot nicer with him in Charge.
 
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If @Saif al-Arab decides to stay, I think he would be an amazing mod for the Arab forum.

He makes wonderful posts and is quite detailed. I think the Middle east and Africa forum would become a lot nicer with him in Charge.

I agree with you 100%, but I can only make suggestions, it's up to the admins to decide. Honestly I wouldn't expect too much, it's an issue that has come up before. I'll give it a good try tomorrow though.
 
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Hey man, just ignore the haters, I enjoy your posts. Plus your like one of the few Arabs left on this forum, it seems like we are a dying breed in this forum.


Just press the ignore button for Arab-Bashers.

It is easier said than done brother, when almost every single thread that is even remotely connected to Arabs, gets trolled here by the usual suspects, mostly ignorant and heavily biased individuals. After a while this gets incredibly tiring and annoying.

Most other Arab users having left ages ago is due to a reason. It did not occur by chance or out of a sudden. There is no need to elaborate.

I want to petition the forum administration to have an Arab moderator. This problem used to affect us a lot too until we got our own moderators, same with the Iranian and Turkish sections.

I'll start a thread in GHQ tomorrow on this topic.

My friend, this was tried years ago to no avail. Also I doubt that much would change.

I mean you have users here (mostly false-flaggers, double users and God knows what) whose basically only purpose is to troll Arabs. I mentioned a few of them earlier in this thread. If such users are not dealt with nothing is going to change.

This section has been a magnet of trolls for years. If it was allowed to post non-military news in the Arab section I would never post here but that is not the case.

However I wish you good luck with that. You will need it.

If @Saif al-Arab decides to stay, I think he would be an amazing mod for the Arab forum.

He makes wonderful posts and is quite detailed. I think the Middle east and Africa forum would become a lot nicer with him in Charge.

No thanks, bro. I don't have the temper for it, time, patience or even the wish to become a moderator. Let alone in the current "climate". There are other better choices. I suggest @Khafee as he is much older than both of us (I presume), fairly active, already a "Think Tank", knowledgeable and fluent in Urdu.

Anyway me asking for a ban is not only due to the current climate (I can survive it) but more to do with my private life not allowing me to spend so much time on social media. However the previous reasons don't exactly make me more enthusiastic about remaining active here to be honest.

Anyway it is my fault as I could just ignore such posts and threads but it is often hard to do so. Especially if you are tagged by trolls constantly.

Once again we are back to the "climate". I can take the hits but if most of your time is wasted on such "discussions" you have to evaluate whether the time you spend on such a forum is worth it.

The conclusion for me is obvious as of now. it is unfortunate because I enjoy the posts of many users here and it is overall an informative forum and a vibrant one but....

Arabs should be criticized as much as anyone and maybe even more, as we have a lot of faults currently, but there is a difference between constructive criticism and what I have witnessed here for too long.

Not to say that trolling here and the usual provocateurs make me write things that I don't believe in and things that I am not proud of having written (in this thread included) due to the deliberate and continuous provocations.
 
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Anyway me asking for a ban is not only due to the current climate (I can survive it) but more to do with my private life not allowing me to spend so much time on social media. However the previous reasons don't exactly make me more enthusiastic about remaining active here to be honest.

Not to say that trolling here and the usual provocateurs make me write things that I don't believe in or am proud of due to the deliberate provocations. Once again we are back to the "climate". I can take the hits but if most of your time is wasted on such "discussions" you have to evaluate whether the time you spend on such a forum is worth it.

The conclusion for me is obvious.
Please don't leave I like reading your posts especially how you completely thrash that poshto guy kaptaan everytime he tries messing with you. I believe he's been bugging you a lot but believe me you got no idea how much trash he talks about us its not even a fraction of what he says about Arabs. Khafee Sir will take care of him but please don't leave. Your one of the best Arab members we have here :(
 
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