Can Pakistan take on the Lashkar-e-Tayyaba?

[zubair723]

If India wants a UN Security Council seat, people will say you better start respecting UN Laws and Resolutions.

Simple Prediction:
Just like the LEAGUE OF NATIONS , UN is also heading towards its own death. The day INDIA gets the SC seat, it will be the end of UN.

 

[Kasrkin]

What I am saying is that Saeed Hafeez is non-Kashmiri. He is a non-soldier. If he can fight in Indian Kashmir, then a Tamilian or a Mumbaikar could fight in Pak Kashmir and then be called a "freedom fighter", would it not ?

It doesn't matter who he is or where he is from or what role you claim he has, but I'm sure that the old man doesn't go fight in Kashmir. His fighters though, are Kashmiris from both sides of the LoC. You want to send Tamils into Pakistani Kashmir, why is their homeland under occupation by us? But if you still want to, you're welcome to send them and see how well that works for you. Or you can send Kashmiri Hindus too, oh wait none of their populations are under Pakistani occupation either, so its going to be impossible to do what LeT does. But it’s not like Indian agents have never been involved in terrorism in mainland Pakistan. If it was indeed LeT or some LeT splinter group that struck in Mumbai the way it did, we condemn it. But we’d take pains to point out that its very obvious that parts of your indigenous Muslim population must’ve been involved too. But if LeT fights in Kashmir though against the Indian military then that’s something else, Kashmir is a bleeding frontier that is bound to agitate the sentiments of your Muslim populations as well as ours. Do remind yourself that we condemn the Mumbai attacks, so your challanges don't make much sense.

Pakistan has not yet held a plebiscite in Pak Kashmir either. So the situation would seem symmetric.

Whats the point? You'd be retarded to think that we don't know who'd win. We are not like India looking for ways to illegally bind Kashmir to Pakistan. Besides the plebiscite without the UN conditions and involvment in both the sides would be useless and would not in anyway be a fulfillment of UN resolutions. It would just give India an excuse to say that they can do things unilaterally too.

I have already said that raping anyone is not allowable and they should be prosecuted. I don't think Army is under orders to rape women - a situation quite asymmetric. They were send there to keep peace and to arrest terrorists, any violation of those rules should be prosecutable.

But violations of these 'rules' are a widespread reality, and are hardly ever prosecuted. At the end of the day, the resultant brutality of Indian forces on the Kashmir people is there.

What I was asking is how you find a non-Kashmiri killing Kashmiri people as morally justifiable ? By saying they are freedom fighters it would (seem to ) imply that those murders should go unpunished and you see the situation as morally justifiable.

I could ask you why you find non-Kashmiris killing Kashmiri people morally justifiable? Because your killers are soldiers? Does that change the nature of the crime or the fact that it happens? First of all, there are many more non-Kashmiri Indian soldiers in Kashmir than there are militants, let a lone non-Kashmiri militants who are a small minority (<5&#37. Secondly you're assuming the pro-freedom, pro-Pakistani groups have caused more civilian loss of life than the pro-India militant groups, para-militaries, Army etc. This is something that I don't agree with anyway. I don't see the murder of any innocents as justified, now the question to ask is...do you?

 

[wtf]

It doesn't matter who he is or where he is from or what role you claim he has, but I'm sure that the old man doesn't go fight in Kashmir. His fighters though, are Kashmiris from both sides of the LoC. You want to send Tamils into Pakistani Kashmir, why is their homeland under occupation by us? But if you still want to, you're welcome to send them and see how well that works for you. Or you can send Kashmiri Hindus too, oh wait none of their populations are under Pakistani occupation either, so its going to be impossible to do what LeT does. But it’s not like Indian agents have never been involved in terrorism in mainland Pakistan. If it was indeed LeT or some LeT splinter group that struck in Mumbai the way it did, we condemn it. But we’d take pains to point out that its very obvious that parts of your indigenous Muslim population must’ve been involved too. But if LeT fights in Kashmir though against the Indian military then that’s something else, Kashmir is a bleeding frontier that is bound to agitate the sentiments of your Muslim populations as well as ours. Do remind yourself that we condemn the Mumbai attacks, so your challanges don't make much sense.



Whats the point? You'd be retarded to think that we don't know who'd win. We are not like India looking for ways to illegally bind Kashmir to Pakistan. Besides the plebiscite without the UN conditions and involvment in both the sides would be useless and would not in anyway be a fulfillment of UN resolutions. It would just give India an excuse to say that they can do things unilaterally too.



But violations of these 'rules' are a widespread reality, and are hardly ever prosecuted. At the end of the day, the resultant brutality of Indian forces on the Kashmir people is there.



I could ask you why you find non-Kashmiris killing Kashmiri people morally justifiable? Because your killers are soldiers? Does that change the nature of the crime or the fact that it happens? First of all, there are many more non-Kashmiri Indian soldiers in Kashmir than there are militants, let a lone non-Kashmiri militants who are a small minority (<5%). Secondly you're assuming the pro-freedom, pro-Pakistani groups have caused more civilian loss of life than the pro-India militant groups, para-militaries, Army etc. This is something that I don't agree with anyway. I don't see the murder of any innocents as justified, now the question to ask is...do you?

Kasrkin, I am not saying that India should send terrorists into Pakistan. I am also not saying that killing innocents by Army is justifiable. Both of these should be prosecutable in courts. Morally speaking killing civilians is wrong.

What I was saying is that calling LeT non-prosecutable implies that these are also OK. That is not my position. I am just reversing what you said.

About the death counts -- About 20,000 civilians have been killed by terrorists. I am against the claims that those deaths would go unaccounted for. If Indian Army did extra-judicial killings of civilians, they should be prosecuted too, obviously. All Indian citizens have equal right to life.

 

[Kasrkin]

What I was saying is that calling LeT non-prosecutable implies that these are also OK. That is not my position. I am just reversing what you said.

I never said that LeT or any other force is non-prosecutable. But it would be proper to point out that your definition of the term 'crime' is not the same as ours. If you're thinking that LeT should be prosecuted for confronting the Indian military, well then thats your view. The Pakistanis for instance arent calling for Indian soldiers to be prosecuted because they fight the militants, are they? If the LeT is responsible for crimes against civilians, then we support attempts to bring them to justice, but by justice we mean proper justice and not a show trial which is what India is expecting of Pakistan at the moment.

About the death counts -- About 20,000 civilians have been killed by terrorists

The figure for deaths/kidnappings in Kashmir by Indian forces is 62,000. I've heard this figure repeatedly in the western press, including on CNN. I can dig up some sources if you havent heard of it, but point is that there are 2 sides of the coin here.

 

[wtf]

I never said that LeT or any other force is non-prosecutable. But it would be proper to point out that your definition of the term 'crime' is not the same as ours. If you're thinking that LeT should be prosecuted for confronting the Indian military, well then thats your view. The Pakistanis for instance arent calling for Indian soldiers to be prosecuted because they fight the militants, are they? If the LeT is responsible for crimes against civilians, then we support attempts to bring them to justice, but by justice we mean proper justice and not a show trial which is what India is expecting of Pakistan at the moment.

Thanks for clarifying. I probably confused your views with that of Agnostic Muslim.

The figure for deaths/kidnappings in Kashmir by Indian forces is 62,000. I've heard this figure repeatedly in the western press, including on CNN. I can dig up some sources if you havent heard of it, but point is that there are 2 sides of the coin here.

That figure will be disputed, maybe we need a separate thread for that. But in general I support the claims that all innocent deaths should be traced down.

 

[Kasrkin]

I think you're misrepresenting AM's position. AM did say this:

I disagree - so long as Indian occupation of J&K continues, any organization fighting occupation is legitimate.

Therefore Saeed and the JuD should not be targeted unless there is evidence of them perpetrating or supporting attacks against civilians after they separated from the LeT.

Which is exactly what I said. I never said freedom fighters operating in Kashmir were illegitimate, but that if there is evidence implicating them of war crimes then we would acknowledge their criminality. However as is the case with JuD presently, there is no implicating evidence produced for the courts to speak of.

 

[wtf]

I think you're misrepresenting AM's position. AM did say this:

Which is exactly what I said. I never said freedom fighters operating in Kashmir were illegitimate, but that if there is evidence implicating them of war crimes then we would acknowledge their criminality. However as is the case with JuD presently, there is no implicating evidence produced for the courts to speak of.

Depends on which courts. Indian courts have implicated LeT/JuD for a bunch of attacks on civilians pre-Mumbai. Then there is the claim by Kasab that he was trained by JuD in his confession (judgment is not yet delivered).

A bunch of terrorists from LeT have surrendered in India and they have admitted (and prosecution proved in Indian courts) that they attacked marketplaces and civilians. Note that Indian courts do not admit confession to police as evidence . So many of these cases are in public record and confessions were in public, open courts.

Hafiz Saeed was also found guilty in US courts and extradited in 2000 to Pakistan (before 9/11). That was in a court in Boston.

I don't know how much you'll trust these, but here is a list of incidents. Incidents involving Lashkar-e-Toiba

My position is that anyone who is not born in Kashmir and goes on to kill Kashmiri civilians cannot be a "freedom fighter". If they were not born in Kashmir, but kill Indian Army and refuse to wear a uniform, they should be treated the same way spies/mercenaries are treated. If they were born in Kashmir, are part of an organized militia and attack only Indian Army then the case is different. I don't believe LeT fits the last criteria.

Do you know of any LeT militant that fits the above criteria ?

 

[jeypore]

If you're thinking that LeT should be prosecuted for confronting the Indian military, well then thats your view. The Pakistanis for instance arent calling for Indian soldiers to be prosecuted because they fight the militants, are they?

This statement is the height of Hipocracy!!!!

This clearly shows that you considered these freedom fighters (terrorist) as an extention of your military arm.

 

[wtf]

Incidents involving Lashkar-e-Toiba

I posted the list of actions by LeT. Seems like they attack civilians more than Army.In most actions involving Army, the LeT people seem to get killed - so there is no need for Pakistan to act against those specific ones.

Here is a list of interesting ones by the way.

->Attack on Pak forces.
May 12: A charge-sheet submitted by Police in an anti-terrorism court says that LeT assassinated former Commander of the Special Services Group, General Aamir Faisal Alvi, to avenge the role he played in the fight against militants in FATA. According to the charge-sheet prepared by Islamabad's Koral Police against Major (retd) Haroon Ashiq, a resident of Pakistan occupied Kashmir, Mohammad Nawaz Khan of Peshawar, and Ashfaq Ahmed of Okara in Punjab, the murder was ordered by Ilyas Kashmiri who provided funds and weapons

-> Using teenagers for militancy
March 27: A teenaged militant of the Lashkar-a-Toiba (LeT), Qazi Abdul Majeed, laid down arms in the Doda District.

-> Suicide attacks outside Kashmir
July 3: Anantnag District Police and Army personnel killed Abu Aatif alias Shadaakh, a Pakistani &#8216;divisional commander&#8217; of the LeT, along with his Pakistani bodyguard, Syed Moin, during an encounter at Niaina Batpora village in Pulwama-Anantnag belt and arrested a young woman, Mubeena Akhtar, believed to be Abu&#8217;s wife. Two AK-56 rifles, one satellite phone and three mobile phones were recovered from the possession of the slain militants. The report added that Abu had planned and executed suicide attack on a CRPF formation at Ramur in Uttar Pradesh on January 1, 2008 and an attack on Indian Institute of Science in Bangalore on December 28, 2005.

-> Attacks on civilians
June 16: Police arrest a LeT terrorist, identified as Tipu, who was reported to be involved in June 12 three grenade attacks at General Bus Stand in Jammu in which one civilian was killed and 29 others were injured, from a house near a Gurudwara in Malik Market area of Narwal. He discloses during questioning that he was camping in different parts of Jammu for last six months on the directions of LeT's Mendhar based 'commander' Osaka, who had been funding him and supplying grenades for the attacks.

-> Attacks on mosques in other parts of India.
April 7: A suspected LeT operative held near the Bangladesh border in April was shown as arrested by police in Hyderabad in connection with the May 18 bomb blast in the city&#8217;s Mecca Masjid. Nayeem alias Sameer was earlier in the custody of Mumbai police and was brought here on a transit warrant. He was remanded to judicial custody for 14 days. Sameer was one of four suspected LeT cadres held by the BSF near the Bangladesh border in April while they were trying to sneak into West Bengal. Later, he was handed over to Mumbai Police for his alleged involvement in bomb attacks on local trains. During a narco-analysis test, Sameer reportedly told Mumbai Police that he had transported RDX to Hyderabad, officials sources said. This was the second arrest by the Special Investigation Cell of city police which is probing the bomb blast. Earlier on May 25, police arrested Shoaib Jagirdar, a close associate of Sameer, from Jalna in Maharashtra. He is now in judicial remand.

 

[wtf]

I continue to maintain that what characterizes a terrorist is the method of action, not the intention or rightness/wrongness of cause.

A terrorist hides among civilians (does not wear uniform or identify himself), attacks civilians, tries to "terrorize" the populace by either indiscriminate killing or by threats.

If these people are recruited by Armies of other countries and attack only military targets, then they are sometimes called saboteurs. They don't wear uniforms, but attack military targets. They are often treated the same as spies (could be shot if arrested in wartime/judged by military courts) but are often protected if they manage to get back home.

A freedom fighter (the American independence war term) refers to an organized militia, wearing uniforms and fighting other soldiers. French army in exile (WW2) is another example.

In my opinion, LeT fits the first criteria more than the second. They clearly are not "Freedom fighters" in any sense.

In what way is killing civilians "legitimate" ?

Dawood Ibrahim might get away with a saboteur defense if it were not for his role in the earlier Mumbai bombings. Even LTTE is better than LeT. They wore uniforms (mostly) and fought in organized military formations. It was their suicide squad attacks that lost them the "militia" tag. It was not until the attack on other Tamil groups, Indian PM and SL politicians that the world really classified them as terrorist.

 

[MilesTogo]

I am surprised to see reasoning that LeT is harmless to Pakistan therefore should be left unchecked. I think same was thought to be true for Taliban and now PA is fighting them. LeT and Taliban share same DNA. They are trained to fight in the name of Islam. It is matter of time when they start demanding something in return for their sacrifices while average Pakistanis are busy enjoying the western pleasures. Thinking that you are safe in Karachi surfing internet while Jihadis are sacrificing their lives in Mumbai is naive. Give it some time and you will see PA fighting LeT too.

 

[wtf]

More evidence for LeT/JuD being a terrorist group and not a "freedom fighting organization".

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U.S. imposes sanctions against people allegedly linked with terrorism_English_Xinhua

WASHINGTON, July 1 (Xinhua) -- The United States said on Wednesday that it is imposing sanctions against four people, one of whom allegedly provided assistance to Al-Qaeda militants and the other three allegedly led a militant group in Pakistan.

The U.S. Treasury said in a statement that it would freeze the funds and assets of Fazeel-A-Tul Shaykh Abu Mohammed Ameen Al-Peshawari, Arif Qasmani, Mohammed Yahya Mujahid and Nasir Javaid.

"The designated individuals have provided direct support to al Qaeda and LeT and have facilitated ... terrorist attacks, including the July 2006 train bombing in Mumbai, India," the statement said.

Al-Peshawari was said to have provided funds and recruits to AlQaeda and the Taliban, and was believed to be responsible for recruiting fighters and suicide bombers and for funding militants in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Qasmani allegedly conducted fund-raising and helped facilitate attacks including the 2006 train bombings in Mumbai, which killed more than 180 people.

LeT stands for Lashkar-e-Taiba, a Pakistan-based militant group. The United States designated the group as a foreign terrorist organization in December 2001. It was banned in Pakistan in 2002.

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Same news, larger story, from Rediff
US slaps sanctions on four Lashkar militants: Rediff.com news

 

[gromell]

Plan to Attack US, Indian Missions
3 Pakistanis with 'Lashkar link' held
Three Pakistani nationals, held early yesterday for suspected link with a plot to attack the US embassy and Indian high commission in Dhaka, are taken on a two-day remand in the afternoon.StarStaff Correspondent

The Detective Branch of police arrested three Pakistanis with suspected links to Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) in Tongi and the city's Uttara early yesterday.

Later in the day, a Dhaka court placed them on a two-day remand each, allowing the detectives to quiz the two over the reported LeT plans to attack the US and Indian embassies in Dhaka.

The arrestees are Syed Abdul Kaiyum Azhari alias Sufian, 22, Mohammad Ashraf Alia Zahid, 24, and Mohammad Monwar Ali, 30.

Talking to The Daily Star, Dhaka Metropolitan Police Commissioner AKM Shahidul Hoque said, "We know a good number of Lashkar operatives are on a covert campaign to carry out subversive activities in Bangladesh. We however have no figure of how many of them are here."

He said of the arrestees, Sufian, a mechanical engineering graduate from Islamic Institute of Technology in Gazipur, had been organising LeT cadres on instructions from his bosses in Pakistan.

"He used to recruit youths for Lashkar and arrange training for them in different countries," Shahidul added.

The other two--diploma engineers--too had been working for the Pakistan-based militant group to spread its tentacles across the country.

&#8220;It's not possible for the Pakistani militants to operate here without the help from locals. Let us dig further to expose the entire LeT network, its financial sources and Bangladeshi patrons."

Assistant DB Commissioner Rafiqul Islam, who led the drives to net the Pakistan nationals, told The Daily Star, "We made the arrests following up information we had from the Bangladeshi LeT men arrested in Chittagong."

The DMP commissioner said the detained Pakistanis hold valid passports and visas, but they could not show any work permit and explain sources of funds for their living expenses.

Earlier on November 4, DB arrested Mufti Harun Izahar, Shahidul Islam and Al Amin alias Saiful.

Harun is son of Mufti Izaharul Islam Chowdhury, chief of an Islami Oikya Jote faction. Shahidul and Saiful are Harun's associates and former students of the IOJ boss's madrasa.

Our court correspondent adds: DB officials produced the Pakistani nationals before Dhaka Metropolitan Magistrate Ferdous Ara around 3:00pm. They sought a 10-day remand each for the three, but the court granted two days'.

Meanwhile, Mufti Harun and his two associates were sent to Dhaka Central Jail yesterday at the end of remand in two phases.


http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/news-details.php?nid=114014