Can Pakistan Be Secular?

[Kompromat]

Secularism is not our piece of cake , it defies the basic idea of the Creation of Pakistan.

 

[freak]

Secularism is not our piece of cake , it defies the basic idea of the Creation of Pakistan.

With 95% muslim population, Pakistan is predominantly an Islamic country and is defined so by the constitution.

But certain privileges need to be given to religious minorities to follow their own religion of choice....which falls under the purview of Fundamental Rights : Freedom to profess religion (Constitution of Pakistan).

In India, Parsis who are merely 70,000 in population have their own laws of inheritance, marriage, adoption, etc... Even Hindus and Muslims have their own laws.

Bottomline is...any country whether Islamic or secular needs to protect the fundamental rights of its citizen at any cost.

 

[Raghu]

Being a secular country means that not every religion has right to be practiced freely by followers,but also the right to freely propagates ones religion and freedom to adopt a religion of Ur choice.

 

[Raghu]

GOD FORBID THAT PAKISTAN BECOME'S SECULAR.

1) GAY MARRIGES.

2) LIVING TOGETHER WITHOUT MARRIGE.

3) LEGALISZED PROSTITUTION.

4) OPEN SALE OF ALCOHAL.

5) BIKINI WEARING GIRL'S ON OUR BEACH'S.

AND THE LIST GO'S ON....................................................

WE MUST FIGHT TO KEEP SECULARISM AT BAY.

Above things are less to do with secularism and more to do with level openness of the society ,freedom , liberty of personal choice etc a citizen entitled in a democratic country.

 

[gubbi]

Secularism is not our piece of cake , it defies the basic idea of the Creation of Pakistan.

Read this.

Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan

August 11, 1947


Mr. President, Ladies and Gentlemen!
I cordially thank you, with the utmost sincerity, for the honour you have conferred upon me - the greatest honour that is possible to confer - by electing me as your first President. I also thank those leaders who have spoken in appreciation of my services and their personal references to me. I sincerely hope that with your support and your co-operation we shall make this Constituent Assembly an example to the world. The Constituent Assembly has got two main functions to perform. The first is the very onerous and responsible task of framing the future constitution of Pakistan and the second of functioning as a full and complete sovereign body as the Federal Legislature of Pakistan. We have to do the best we can in adopting a provisional constitution for the Federal Legislature of Pakistan. You know really that not only we ourselves are wondering but, I think, the whole world is wondering at this unprecedented cyclonic revolution which has brought about the clan of creating and establishing two independent sovereign Dominions in this sub-continent. As it is, it has been unprecedented; there is no parallel in the history of the world. This mighty sub-continent with all kinds of inhabitants has been brought under a plan which is titanic, unknown, unparalleled. And what is very important with regards to it is that we have achieved it peacefully and by means of an evolution of the greatest possible character.

Dealing with our first function in this Assembly, I cannot make any well-considered pronouncement at this moment, but I shall say a few things as they occur to me. The first and the foremost thing that I would like to emphasize is this: remember that you are now a sovereign legislative body and you have got all the powers. It, therefore, places on you the gravest responsibility as to how you should take your decisions. The first observation that I would like to make is this: You will no doubt agree with me that the first duty of a government is to maintain law and order, so that the life, property and religious beliefs of its subjects are fully protected by the State.

The second thing that occurs to me is this: One of the biggest curses from which India is suffering - I do not say that other countries are free from it, but, I think our condition is much worse - is bribery and corruption. That really is a poison. We must put that down with an iron hand and I hope that you will take adequate measures as soon as it is possible for this Assembly to do so.

Black-marketing is another curse. Well, I know that blackmarketeers are frequently caught and punished. Judicial sentences are passed or sometimes fines only are imposed. Now you have to tackle this monster, which today is a colossal crime against society, in our distressed conditions, when we constantly face shortage of food and other essential commodities of life. A citizen who does black-marketing commits, I think, a greater crime than the biggest and most grievous of crimes. These blackmarketeers are really knowing, intelligent and ordinarily responsible people, and when they indulge in black-marketing, I think they ought to be very severely punished, because the entire system of control and regulation of foodstuffs and essential commodities, and cause wholesale starvation and want and even death.

The next thing that strikes me is this: Here again it is a legacy which has been passed on to us. Along with many other things, good and bad, has arrived this great evil, the evil of nepotism and jobbery. I want to make it quite clear that I shall never tolerate any kind of jobbery, nepotism or any any influence directly of indirectly brought to bear upon me. Whenever I will find that such a practice is in vogue or is continuing anywhere, low or high, I shall certainly not countenance it.

I know there are people who do not quite agree with the division of India and the partition of the Punjab and Bengal. Much has been said against it, but now that it has been accepted, it is the duty of everyone of us to loyally abide by it and honourably act according to the agreement which is now final and binding on all. But you must remember, as I have said, that this mighty revolution that has taken place is unprecedented. One can quite understand the feeling that exists between the two communities wherever one community is in majority and the other is in minority. But the question is, whether it was possible or practicable to act otherwise than what has been done, A division had to take place. On both sides, in Hindustan and Pakistan, there are sections of people who may not agree with it, who may not like it, but in my judgement there was no other solution and I am sure future history will record is verdict in favour of it. And what is more, it will be proved by actual experience as we go on that was the only solution of India's constitutional problem. Any idea of a united India could never have worked and in my judgement it would have led us to terrific disaster. Maybe that view is correct; maybe it is not; that remains to be seen. All the same, in this division it was impossible to avoid the question of minorities being in one Dominion or the other. Now that was unavoidable. There is no other solution. Now what shall we do? Now, if we want to make this great State of Pakistan happy and prosperous, we should wholly and solely concentrate on the well-being of the people, and especially of the masses and the poor. If you will work in co-operation, forgetting the past, burying the hatchet, you are bound to succeed. If you change your past and work together in a spirit that everyone of you, no matter to what community he belongs, no matter what relations he had with you in the past, no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this State with equal rights, privileges, and obligations, there will be on end to the progress you will make.

I cannot emphasize it too much. We should begin to work in that spirit and in course of time all these angularities of the majority and minority communities, the Hindu community and the Muslim community, because even as regards Muslims you have Pathans, Punjabis, Shias, Sunnis and so on, and among the Hindus you have Brahmins, Vashnavas, Khatris, also Bengalis, Madrasis and so on, will vanish. Indeed if you ask me, this has been the biggest hindrance in the way of India to attain the freedom and independence and but for this we would have been free people long long ago. No power can hold another nation, and specially a nation of 400 million souls in subjection; nobody could have conquered you, and even if it had happened, nobody could have continued its hold on you for any length of time, but for this. Therefore, we must learn a lesson from this. You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State. As you know, history shows that in England, conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some States in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the Nation.

Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.

Well, gentlemen, I do not wish to take up any more of your time and thank you again for the honour you have done to me. I shall always be guided by the principles of justice and fairplay without any, as is put in the political language, prejudice or ill-will, in other words, partiality or favouritism. My guiding principle will be justice and complete impartiality, and I am sure that with your support and co-operation, I can look forward to Pakistan becoming one of the greatest nations of the world.

I have received a message from the United States of America addressed to me. It reads:

I have the honour to communicate to you, in Your Excellency's capacity as President of the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan, the following message which I have just received from the Secretary of State of the United States:
On the occasion of of the first meeting of the Constituent Assembly for Pakistan, I extend to you and to the members of the Assembly, the best wishes of the Government and the people of the United States for the successful conclusion of the great work you are about to undertake.

If that isnt secularism, pray do tell me what is? Where does Pakistan find herself today compared to Jinnah's vision?

Lol and the morons in BJP kicked Advani out of chairmanship due to his praising of Jinnah's speech!

 

[Kompromat]

Read this.



If that isnt secularism, pray do tell me what is? Where does Pakistan find herself today compared to Jinnah's vision?

Lol and the morons in BJP kicked Advani out of chairmanship due to his praising of Jinnah's speech!

I agree with you , we are No where close to Jinnah's Pakistan but you have my word we will bring it back one day.

Pakistan is and will be a Islamic democratic Nation & we do allow freedom of worship and welfare to our minorities.

Pakistan was never meant to be secular nor we will let it become one rather we will do everything in our powers to bring back what Jinnah and Iqbal wanted our country to be.

Thanks

 

[Kompromat]

Above things are less to do with secularism and more to do with level openness of the society ,freedom , liberty of personal choice etc a citizen entitled in a democratic country.

Since our view about them is different so We rather regard them as a curse to a society , all of them are perveted and non sense , its our country we know how we want to run it.

 

[Solomon2]

I agree with you , we are No where close to Jinnah's Pakistan but you have my word we will bring it back one day.

BB, didn't you also characterize the period from independence and democracy to dictatorship and strict blasphemy laws as a "transitional phase" moving towards the Pakistan you desire? link How can the two goals be one and the same?

 

[bc040400065]

These uncomfortable questions are being raised after the New York bomber's connection with Pakistan.

why .??? what islam has to do with it... what pakistan has to do with it...??? why the hell should we be secular ??? just because america wants it..??? just because it will please the west?? just because india is secular officially not practically.... why the hell everyone starts pointing on pakistan's affiliation with islam??? did any one of us asked american or western or indian to change their ideology???? did we ever made any such demands??? then if this is a free world and if this is what democratic world should be then no one has the right to demand these kind of nonsense from us ... Islam is our religion and we are proud to be muslims... now if the west america or india have any problem with it then simply go to hell...

 

[bc040400065]

Being a secular country means that not every religion has right to be practiced freely by followers,but also the right to freely propagates ones religion and freedom to adopt a religion of Ur choice.

have you ever read any thing about islam and islamic history??? Do you know that Prophet Mohammad PBUH allowed jews to worship in the holy mosque in Medina.??.. do you know that islam allows the same rights to minorities ??? do you know that Islam does not allow forceful change of religion??? do you know that islam was the religion that gave women right to own property and right to claim their share in family wealth 1400 years ago ??? now is this what secularism is that the west or US have??? then i m sorry but we are no way allowing it in pakistan.... no need thank you very much... you can have this secularism we don't need it.. we are proud to be muslims and proud to be followers of Islam...

 

[Kompromat]

BB, didn't you also characterize the period from independence and democracy to dictatorship and strict blasphemy laws as a "transitional phase" moving towards the Pakistan you desire? link How can the two goals be one and the same?

Yes, its been a test time for us overall as a nation and i never agreed with Dictators specially with Mr Zia thouh most of them were Nationalists and did some great work but still they were Dictators.

We are working with our fellows to bring some serious changes in Pakistan in terms of how we do politics and law and order.

Blashphemy laws must be ammended but must not be abolished as i want to see Pakistan a progressive , tollerant Islamic society where all other minorities can live their life as they desire.

Solomon you might think as Pakistan being a conservitive society as a whole but we are not and the image that our minorities are treated badly is wrong.

We provide whatever we can , the recent example is that we have decided to Make a new University in the name of "Baba Guru Nanak" the sikh siritual leader in Pakistan.

Now solomon this is not a small thing for Pakistan considering it is an Islamic country and it is like if Israel makes "Prophet Muhammad SAW University" in Til aviv.

we keep their places or worship secure and safe , they are allowed to preach except from ahmadis (because we have constitutional issues with them which must be solved).

So Pakistan would be what our elders wanted it to be and what our myrters sacrificed for.

 

[bc040400065]

Pakistan at least should allow a non muslim to assume the helm of the country. The very first step towards equality among all its citizen.

well dear... we hardly have any minorities in pakistan just 2- 3%.. what are you talking about... its funny really... now what a secularism and democracy it is that 3% should rule the 97% majority .... wow nice realy....

 

[bc040400065]

Peregrine: The article was attempt to point out if Pakistan can be secular (yes, i disagree that Pakistan is non secular .. depending on who and how it is defined). The reason it is not attempt to question creation of Pakistan is because the author have bought in the context of Mr.Zia and Mr.Bhutto, who inducted the Islamic angle to your policies.

As for Mr.Jinnah's view on this topic, let me paste his 1947 speech (courtesy Wikipedia) :

have you ever read something about Islam and its teachings??? what Quaid-e-azam said is the same what islam teaches... ..in islam your are free to worship free to live your life ... so whats the issue with quaid's speech?

 

[S.U.R.B.]

jalale padshahi ho kih jamhoori tamasha ho
Juda ho Deen Siyasat say to reh jatee hai Changay-zi

( Allama Iqbal )

But some people misquote it and just want to publicize like,

Juda ho Mullah, Siyasat say to Reh jaati hai.....

 

[Solomon2]

Yes, its been a test time for us overall as a nation and i never agreed with Dictators specially -

Accepted.

Blashphemy laws must be ammended but must not be abolished as i want to see Pakistan a progressive , tollerant Islamic society where all other minorities can live their life as they desire. Solomon you might think as Pakistan being a conservitive society as a whole but we are not and the image that our minorities are treated badly is wrong.

What minorities? Looking at the demographics, it seems that most of them fled the country since independence. That can't speak well of how minorities are treated, can it?

We provide whatever we can , the recent example is that we have decided to Make a new University in the name of "Baba Guru Nanak" the sikh siritual leader in Pakistan.

I suspect that promoting Sikhism in Pakistan is seen more as a weapon against India (Amritsar being right up against the border and all) rather than an expression of genuine good will toward Sikhs.

we keep their places or worship secure and safe

Zia ordered the last Jewish synagogue in Karachi destroyed, to make way for a shopping plaza.

they are allowed to preach except from ahmadis (because we have constitutional issues with them which must be solved).

Pakistan's blasphemy laws are so tightly drawn and can be so strictly applied as to make non-Islamic worship difficult or impossible. If you believe religious observance is a choice and not a fate, then a logical corollary is that all religions promote, if not hate, than distaste of other religions. That is part of one's religious identity; if I didn't like Judaism best I would choose a different religion, yes? So I don't like Islam very much by comparison.

Yet that belief, under Pakistan's blasphemy laws, could be seen as offensive, is that not so? Especially if someone on the street in Karachi asks me questions and I try to explain it to them. Jail might be the best fate I could hope for.

There are things about secular "culture" not to like. Yet freedom of religion does not have to mean freedom from religion; you can have the first without giving up the second, and I think it can be done without blasphemy laws or mob rule.