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Can Indian T-90, T-72 MBTs be considered obsolete?

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why are we investing so heavily in tanks in the era of loitering munitions, drones getting cheaper, etc etc etc.
why does playing video games and/or watching youtube vids of azeri 'victory' make PDFers such tacticians and experts about all things concerning defense matters.

likewise ifn when zani liar, wahda framosh, muhsin kush, moron e ahzam the wannabe mahdi makes an allegation about the forces, it does not become word of God that has to be believed.
 
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Russian armor has utterly failed in Ukraine, including its most advanced T-90 models which India is buying in large numbers.

Q: Considering that the Indian armor deployed against Pakistan mostly if not entirely comprises of the Russian export versions of T-72 and T-90 MBTs in various iterations, what does it mean for the Indian Army's capabilities to wage a short lightening war against a well armed, trained and entrenched adversary like Pakistan?

Q: What should Pakistan be doing in light of learnings drawn from Nagorno Karabakh and Ukraine conflicts, especially with regards to the use cases of armored formations in saturated threat environment?

Q: The Russian made armor has been mercilessly massacred by cheap anti tank solutions in Nagorno Karabakh, Syria and Ukraine, while some cases of German tanks in Turkish service being destroyed have also been noted. What sort of learnings can we draw from these trends?
good to see you are still around. Hope you are doing well.
 
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Russian tanks have better metallurgy and design than Chinese tanks, definitely. But they doesn’t mean modern Chinese tanks are bad or anything. I would easily say the best Russian tanks are much better than the best Chinese tanks, but that’s not our problem, because india does not use the best Russian tanks, but we use the best Chinese tanks.

India has basically three tanks making up its entire armored Corps;

At the bottom are the stock T72Ms and M1s, those things are most definitely obsolete, just as the PAs Type 59s and 69s are obsolete. I’d rate both of these at similar levels, despite the Indian T72s being Second Gen MBTs, since PAs 59s and 69s do have some upgrades. Either way, they’re all death traps used out of necessity, and both nations have nearly a thousand of each in active or reserve roles.

The second is the modernized T72s, these fare a bit better, they are comparable to our Al-Zarrars. India has around 1000-1100 of these.

The last is the T90S, the only tank I’d consider not entirely obsolete in the Indian arsenal. They have 1168 of these, and at best they are comparable to PAs T80UDs. Inferior to AK, and nearly half a generation behind AK-1 (a full generation behind VT-4).

The biggest issue with Indian tanks is their ammo, no matter what tank, their entire 3000+ strong fleet uses obsolete Russian ammo from the 80s, while even the oldest of PAs tanks use modern Chinese and local ammo. Another issue would be the abysmal mobility of their tanks.

To put it shortly; yes, the Indian armored fleet is technologically far behind PAs, but that doesn’t mean the PA should celebrate just yet, The Indian armored fleet is much bigger, and it’s just one element of a combined arms warfare doctrine. PAs gunship helicopter fleet is nonexistent at the moment compared to Indias. PAs SP artillery fleet is much superior to Indias. But Indias Towed arty fleet is much superior to Pakistans. Pakistans UAV fleet is much superior to Indias. But IA has much better and more numerous ATGMs.

The list goes on and on, both sides have their strengths and weaknesses, but if we are to talk about tank fleets and tech particularly, PA has a very significant edge in quality, just not in quantity.

India has:
1168 T90S (with 464 more on order but their delivery is uncertain due to the war).
1000-1100~ T72 (modernized)
1000+ T72Ms and M1s both in service and reserve.
124 Arjun MK1s (lmao) and 118 Arjun MK1As on order (still lmao).

Pakistan has:
Unknown number of VT4s, but I’d assume somewhere between 150-250, with several hundred more on order, these numbers are going up fast.
120 AK1s, 320 AKs.
300-310 T80UDs
290~ Type 85UGs
700-750 AZs
And several hundred Type 59s and 69s in active or reserve, being retired actively as VT4s are delivered.
How is al khalid superior to T90S exactly ? I'm not talking about AK 1 here
And from what I know most of the 2000 T72s in indian service are upgraded to Combat Improved Ajeya standard
 
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Too costly for large armies.
Have less tanks then, I'd rather have less safe tanks than more tanks that could easily be blown up by 50,000$ missiles.

Israel equipped 600 Merkava Mk4s and 400 Namer APCs with those systems, first army to equip all of its active tank force with APS, the result was perfect defensive capabilities even against the most powerful missiles.
 
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era of tanks is ending as a whole

Armor's primary duty has been to make ingress and pave it for the infantry.

Until and unless, the infantry can come and do their job, everything else is worthless.

Tanks will remain ; maybe not as dominant as once thought of. Smart weapons, specially drones will share the duty.

regards.
 
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Russians have learned the hard way that the west has created very affective anti-tank weapons that the Ukraine have utilised against the enemy

Mainly because of this guy “ javelin “
 
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Have less tanks then, I'd rather have less safe tanks than more tanks that could easily be blown up by 50,000$ missiles.

Israel equipped 600 Merkava Mk4s and 400 Namer APCs with those systems, first army to equip all of its active tank force with APS, the result was perfect defensive capabilities even against the most powerful missiles.
Less tanks wouldn't be enough to cover a large frontier
 
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Any institution not working properly in the national interest relative to its power deserves abuse. The Army can fix everything if it likes.

Secondly, why are we investing so heavily in tanks in the era of loitering munitions, drones getting cheaper, etc etc etc.

No. Tanks still have a place in modern warfare.

What usage of ATGMs both in the Russo-Ukrainian War and Yom Kippur War Egyptian Saggers demonstrated is that an unsupported tank advance is tantamount to suicide. When properly screened by infantry and covered by air and artillery support it is still very much a force to be reckoned with.
 
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Less tanks wouldn't be enough to cover a large frontier
What good would be covering a large frontier if all those tanks could easily be destroyed?

No. Tanks still have a place in modern warfare.

What usage of ATGMs both in the Russo-Ukrainian War and Yom Kippur War Egyptian Saggers demonstrated is that an unsupported tank advance is tantamount to suicide. When properly screened by infantry and covered by air and artillery support it is still very much a force to be reckoned with.
Nah, combined arms efforts aren't enough to protect tanks, you need APS.
 
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Tanks are formidable when you have an air dominance...but they'll still be relevant for ground forces.
 
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Armor's primary duty has been to make ingress and pave it for the infantry.

Until and unless, the infantry can come and do their job, everything else is worthless.

Tanks will remain ; maybe not as dominant as once thought of. Smart weapons, specially drones will share the duty.

regards.
drones have changed the game of future sir
 
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