Can anyone tell me why India and Pakistan don’t get along?

[ajtr]

ha ha ha ......

It is such a marvelous picture.

But you still did not answer my question.

i may be wrong but i think kashyap brahmins are the higher ones even among the brahmins..

 

[indian_jigar]

This is not provocation. Please don't take it as such. Purely intellectual discourse.

If Modi can not be proven guilty for lack of appropriate evidence, how can Hafiz Saeed be proven guilty without appropriate evidence.

Hafeez Saeed has never been tried in a court. Modi has had the Supreme Court and a Special Investigations Team behind him for the last 10 years, and finally the verdict is that he has not been guilty. Other Gujrat politicians that were guilty were given life sentence.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

This is not provocation. Please don't take it as such. Purely intellectual discourse.

If Modi can not be proven guilty for lack of appropriate evidence, how can Hafiz Saeed be proven guilty without appropriate evidence.

Both cases are different. In Gujarat riot case -it is an internal crime and independence agencies enquired the case and Independent court given the verdict. There is no chances of wrong motive by any body.

In hafiz Said case it would be an embracement for pak govt and ISI if he is proven guilty, remember when kasab was accused pak govt said he is not Pakistani but later they had to admit it in front of overwhelming amount of evidence.

so pak govt and it's agencies has to protect him to cover the involvement of another Pakistani, his possible links with many hidden faces in ISI and army. so they don't conduct the enquiry to supplyment the evidence India has provided against him..

 

[Ticker]

Hafeez Saeed has never been tried in a court. Modi has had the Supreme Court and a Special Investigations Team behind him for the last 10 years, and finally the verdict is that he has not been guilty. Other Gujrat politicians that were guilty were given life sentence.

You are wrong Sir, Hafiz Saeed was tried in Pakistani courts with the evidence given by Indian authorities and local investigators. The charge was not proven and he was found not guilty by a court of law.

 

[ajtr]

When the law is found wanting

Reports of the acquittal of Maulana Aziz of Laal Masjid fame and bail to Malik Ishaq of Lashkar-e-Jhangvi notoriety are instructive, although not surprising. Whether the judicial system harbours a soft corner for militants produced by the agencies, or the police and prosecution have made a habit of mishandling terrorism cases, or crucial witnesses are just not provided protection, there are apparently far too many exploitable loopholes in the system of justice. Considering how terrorism has emerged as the country’s prime security concern, it is to be noted with increasing concern that our security and judicial systems are not geared to cope with the growing magnitude of the threat. For their part, the courts cannot be faulted when police evidence contradicts prosecution narratives, as was the case in Maulana Aziz’s prosecution. Granted, the prosecution can do precious little so long as witnesses are harassed and threatened to keep them away from the stand. The police, too, have failed to build necessary capacity to deal with this changing security paradigm. Intelligence agencies employ a different modus operandi. Theirs is, by definition, a covert method, one that cannot always serve courts with incontrovertible evidence, even if all parties concerned are in agreement regarding the potency of nabbed individuals. No doubt this cycle needs serious official attention, and the longer necessary reforms are delayed, the longer dangerous individuals will roam our streets, plan lethal attacks, and kill and maim with impunity.

Maulana Aziz and Malik Ishaq’s cases are markedly different. They are too high profile for agencies to be without binding evidence, especially the latter, and the courts are well aware of the renewed threat to society, especially sectarian minorities, that his bail implies. Still we are in this tangle — Maulana Aziz stands acquitted from 18 of 27 cases against him, including the murder of a Ranger, and Malik Ishaq, eternal nemesis of the Shia and proclaimed offender, again roams free. It is no less revealing that the charge against Ishaq was brought under the law against propagating hatred, not cold-blooded, systematic and genocidal murder of a sectarian minority. So much for the course of the law. At a time when organised militancy is seriously challenging the writ of the state, there are pockets of active civil war in the tribal areas, and the Shia, especially the quiet Hazara community, are summarily executed with abandon, the need to rein in extremist elements could not be greater. The judiciary, security apparatus and intelligence agencies must all reorient themselves to the emerging realities. Already the enemy has adapted far faster and better to twist important levers of the state to its advantage. Should things remain the same, we will have more such dangerous, evil individuals roaming scot-free, and slowly but surely institutions, and subsequently the state, will stand increasingly threatened. The government’s intent to strengthen anti-terrorism laws therefore assumes even more urgency than ever.

 

[Ticker]

Both cases are different. In Gujarat riot case -it is an internal crime and independence agencies enquired the case and Independent court given the verdict. There is no chances of wrong motive by any body.

Very interesting statement indeed sir. Are you suggesting that the Pakistani court of law is not independent. Then you don't know the current Pakistani judges. They dethroned a PM and may do it the second time - if they are not independent, we are living on Mars.

Your own Indian analysts and commentators are crying foul on the verdict, declaring Mr. Modi not guilty. So please, lets leave it here.

In hafiz Said case it would be an embracement for pak govt and ISI if he is proven guilty, remember when kasab was accused pak govt said he is not Pakistani but later they had to admit it in front of overwhelming amount of evidence.

In Mr. Modis case, if he was proven guilty - a sitting Chief Minister of an Indian state involved in genocide of a minority community - what do you think it would have done to Indian prestige as a whole - not the government or the RAW. Kasab is a small time terrorist who lied many times in the court - how could one believe his statements against the Government of Pakistan.

so pak govt and it's agencies has to protect him to cover the involvement of another Pakistani, his possible links with many hidden faces in ISI and army. so they don't conduct the enquiry to supplyment the evidence India has provided against him..

He is in Indian custody. And he has not been able to produce no concrete proof to this affect. Appropriate inquiries were carried out and nothing was found to the satisfaction of the court to declare Hafiz Saeed as a criminal in this case.

Contrarily, there was enough evidence - even I saw all the clips released by Tehelka *** com. And if after seeing those, Mr Modi could still be found not guilty - it probably is the biggest travesty of justice any where.

When the law is found wanting

There are many so-called Maulanas on death row also - waiting to be hanged after due process of law.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

One thing i don't get it ie how one can there be converted hindus.conversion is not..This is all arya samaji nonsense.Hindu is a born hindu not converted one even if i say raja pakistani is also an hindu then im not wrong.

Its the process of re-converted those whose ancestors were coverted from Hinduism They cannot get out of this emotional trauma

@ raja Pakistani
see how your first sentence starts..that eliminates all possibilities of asking questions, or applying common sense against interpretations and see if it does really make sense or not, nobody dare to ask reasons for , or what occasion , culture , and time period or think if what is said or written can be applied now literally ?,Is it good for society..? nobody will think that if the society and culture advanced and we need to improvise, that why god has given us brains and logic ..and even in this forum I may be forgiven for speaking something against Pakistan but not if I criticise religion any further..so am stopping it right here..sorry if anybody offended..

I don’t mind whatever views you have towards Islam or any other religion. You can debate as long as you know the difference between criticism and bashing.

Islam is not against progress of society and accepting new positive ideas/change for example there is no mention of word “computer” in Quran and it don’t mean you will never use it because quran is silent about using PC or TV . I told in my previous reply that Islamic fiqh deal with growing need of time. The only thing which don’t change in religion is their concept of modesty and morality as it equally apply to all ages. It will always wrong in Islam or in any religion to kill, steal, hurt others and same could be said about homosexuality or modesty/premarital/extra martial sex . You think morals should change with time?

here is no holy cow attitude in matters of state..every thing including it's constitution , govt , to lowest level laws and actions come under scrutiny..and changes are made if necessary.Nationalistic people will not hesitate from accepting wrong doing happened in the past by the state because there no false sense of " it can't be wrong because it's holy " which is true in the case of religions.

I wish you were right but we don’t need to go far and even pdf is there to observe the attitude of nationalist and their ability to take criticism. Dude there is a difference between religion and religious person. Religious person can do wrong things in the name of religion but it don’t mean fault is within religion. Just like a nationalist can kill innocent of enemy countries in the name of patriotism or nationalism. How many wars were fought because of nationalism or politics? How many wars fought because of religious differences? You decide.

Hindus were provoked by some bad elements in Muslim society and bad elements in Hindus reacted killing other innocent Muslims..i would not blame lack nationalism for this but false sense of religious belief .

No there was one reason for this. Religion dominated nationalism as you took lives of Indians to take the revenge of fellow Muslims or Hindus. People of sub continent are still emotional about their beliefs whether you admit it or not. Many people in India cannot even think outside their caste let alone outside their religion. You agnostic or atheist Indians on pdf are not representing the vast majority of Indians from middle or lower class who still prefer to not think outside the box

Finally Every Muslim is as much as Indian as a Hindu is.. it is the ultra nationalist Hindus which is a tiny fraction of our society rant in the public forums to the Muslims to get lost..But every liberal, nationalistic Hindu or Christian will always oppose such ideologys..yes we will be called " pseudo secular " for that..but it's the cost of staying neutral in this country.

I appreciate anyone who think and act neutral without any bias/prejudices towards any group/race/nationality/religion and it don’t matter if he is atheist, Muslim, Hindu or secular etc. People careless about beliefs/nationality of others and all they care is how others treat them

 

[Joe Shearer]

i may be wrong but i think kashyap brahmins are the higher ones even among the brahmins..

No, no, no, that is most certainly wrong! I am writing this without checking, but Kashyap is the totemic group of default.

Meaning, if you can't figure out or state your correct gotta, the priest slams you into Kashyap. It is almost a place-holder.

By the way, you are confusing gotta with other classifications. In north India, there are the Pancha Gauda, five groups of Brahmins, subdivided into many more according to their place of location. In south India, there are the Pancha Dravida.

Don't even get into the nonsense of comparing one Brahmin to another. That way lies madness.

Hafeez Saeed has never been tried in a court. Modi has had the Supreme Court and a Special Investigations Team behind him for the last 10 years, and finally the verdict is that he has not been guilty. Other Gujrat politicians that were guilty were given life sentence.

That is incorrect.

Modi was never arraigned; the most damaging breakthrough in the various Gujarat riots cases was the sting operations where Babu Bajrangi bragged openly about his role in killing Muslims. That led to a court reference to the SIT, and on the evidence that emerged and was verified, the SIT considered that there was no evidence against Modi. There are various other cases, and it is wrong to say that Modi has been absolved by any court. On the contrary, in the Naroda Patiya sentence, the judge clearly found criminal conspiracy, and her sentence took that into account. Such a conspiracy on investigation as a conspiracy, rather than the counts which were primary against the defendants, can lead anywhere. Let us suspend judgement for now, and not award certificates just yet.

You are wrong Sir, Hafiz Saeed was tried in Pakistani courts with the evidence given by Indian authorities and local investigators. The charge was not proven and he was found not guilty by a court of law.

Sadly, the Pakistani establishment made no effort to round out the evidence provided by the Indian side, no effort to gather information freely available within Pakistan, and allowed the case to go to trial based on the partial information available to Indian investigators.

It was a disgraceful cover-up.

 

[Pride]

i may be wrong but i think kashyap brahmins are the higher ones even among the brahmins..

Actually, Higher Vs Lower Brahmins are always debatable and even this spreads for different class of Brahmins as well (Sarayupareen, kanaykubja, Maithili etc).

Still as you mentioned that Brahmins believe in superiority theory among themselves and hence "so called" higher North Indian brahmin classes like Tiwari, Mishra etc does not want to get married to "So called" lower class brahmin class like Pathak, Upadhyay etc.

Kashyap is last name belongs to Gotra of same name (which in turn refer to Kashyap rishi from where Kashmir name originated) and there is no segregation among any Gotra in Vedas. Hence it is again man made phenomenon.

In Tamilnadu, This Brahmin class widens over Aiyars Vs Ayengars which is due to followers of Lord Shiva vs Lord Vishnu.

 

[curioususer]

ye kya hota hai

Agar tumhe pata nahi hai tho tum brahmin nahi ho.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Very interesting statement indeed sir. Are you suggesting that the Pakistani court of law is not independent. Then you don't know the current Pakistani judges. They dethroned a PM and may do it the second time - if they are not independent, we are living on Mars.

Your own Indian analysts and commentators are crying foul on the verdict, declaring Mr. Modi not guilty. So please, lets leave it here.



In Mr. Modis case, if he was proven guilty - a sitting Chief Minister of an Indian state involved in genocide of a minority community - what do you think it would have done to Indian prestige as a whole - not the government or the RAW. Kasab is a small time terrorist who lied many times in the court - how could one believe his statements against the Government of Pakistan.



He is in Indian custody. And he has not been able to produce no concrete proof to this affect. Appropriate inquiries were carried out and nothing was found to the satisfaction of the court to declare Hafiz Saeed as a criminal in this case.

Contrarily, there was enough evidence - even I saw all the clips released by Tehelka *** com. And if after seeing those, Mr Modi could still be found not guilty - it probably is the biggest travesty of justice any where.



There are many so-called Maulanas on death row also - waiting to be hanged after due process of law.

I did not say pak courts are biased I said the govt had too much to hide so they did not done the investigation properly based on what ever proof India has given against him.

In modi matter there was only allegations against him , nothing solid to prove his involvement, otherwise congress ruling in the center would have utilise this opportunity to nail him for ever. if Indian govt /courts had a false sense of prestige to save they would not have punished a former minister from modi's govt and many other politicians.

 

[Contrarian]

Pakistani courts are already infamous for letting terrorists go by citing lack of their names even on the original fir's!
Now anyone who knows the policing system knows that original fir's dont contain every culprits name. Its only after the investigation that all the names crop up.

There is something severely wrong with the Judges of Pakistan.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

@ raja
Yes morality changes, evolves with time , so will be the method, laws , of morality and laws of justice and punishment will change. Religion can't accept this change until and unless there is a big amount of pressure from modern society to do so.


what you see in pdf is because of few peoples continuous effort to throw mud at others while keeping silence when same wrongs happens in his own country. So most of the responses to this kind of posts are against posters and their intentions not against the post.

You can't decide which is better nationality or religion by counting the number of wars because wars. often has multiple reasons including religion, race, ultra nationalism, linguistic differences , greed of rulers, etc.. take India and Pakistan the enmity begin by religion, lead to territorial dispute, today it is nationalistic as well as religious enmity.


About riot , I wouldn't say a spontaneous responses to targeted religious killing is not because of lack of nationalistic mind set but I would say overly boiled emotions based on religious sense, it is a quick response. yes people who plan and do things like this can be ultra nationalists lead by religious differences and hatred. what I am trying to say is mainly religious sense is responsible for the actions and reactions here, other factors like nationalistic thoughts, friendships, neighbourhood relations, humanity etc all takes a back seat because of this. it is matter of what over powers what all, you may also call it a lack of nationalistic mind but I prefer to say nationalistic thoughs has been overpowered by religious hatred.

 

[TopCat]

India does not go along with anybody. Pretty bad stuff..

 

[Contrarian]

First of all Quran was not book written by any man . Muslim believe verses of Quran was reveled by God through angels and was written by man and God himself took responsibility to preserve its message from any sort of distortion and it address all humanity not just Muslim and is valid for all ages. Secondly Quran is not against any kind of progress and positive change in society. If something was written centuries ago don’t become invalid today. You people are ignorant about Islamic fiqh(Islamic jurisprudence) as you don’t know that Muslim have concept like ijma(consensus of jurists and expert), ijtihad(human reasoning), giyas(analogical deductions) etc to address the issue of modern society. These all concepts cater the growing needs of society and muslim have been asked to use common sense and reasoning about something they are not sure.

Now message of Quran is open for interpretation. Many concepts of quran are very clear and no difference of opinions there while in many other things peoples have difference of opinion because of difference in interpretation. Some Muslim just make their mind and then go and try to interpret verses to make it fit with their own opinions while some just interpret Quran literally without understanding the historical context in which some verses were reveled . Why we see Taliban have strict or literal interpretation of Islam its because they are not educated. They cannot have research for themselves. They rely on opinions of those illiterate molvi who never went in school and never got basic education which is important for understanding the religion properly. When someone bring wrong interpretation of religion, we try to correct him because it give bad name to our religion islam. When someone will kill innocent in suicide attack and will consider it jihad then we would oppose him that such jihad is not Islamic. Well because he commit this wrong act considering it religious obligations that’s why sane people bring verse from his religion to point out that its wrong even according to his religion.

And yet the point that Koran can be misinterpreted remains valid. And that is the source of all problems. So why, when someone talks nonsense and says that Koran justifies it, do the others have to start quoting koranic verses. Why cannot someone say(and a minority does say) that even if the Koran says so, in today's day and age, what you are saying and doing is plain stupid - Stop it!
All it requires is some common sense. People should know that there is a world beyond Islam. For example cutting off someone's hand is not considered acceptable by most societies today. Now if someone says put sharia and make laws to cut off a thieve's hand, that would not be acceptable today.

I personally feel blind nationalist is as dangerous as blind religious. My experience on this forum is that no Indian or Pakistani take any criticism on their nations from others . Nationalists are such blind that they call anyone traitor who say negative things about their country or say positive thing about enemy country as they assume their country is perfect and all evils belong to land of their enemy. Such approach is very close minded while a religious person who consider islam before nationality will be able to see the errors on both side because he know that country is run by politicians who can be corrupt and can create such conflicts which let people of both countries suffer.

I remember rahual gandi was labell as ISI agent because he said hindu extremist are dangerous for india then you read about khan who try to please Indians as much as possible by ignoring Islamic teaching but they also get label of traitor if say anything positive about Pakistan even salman khan has to make apology after commenting on 26/11 to please the sensitivity of Indians about their nation. Every second day you hear nationalist crying on how dare he insulted my flags. How dare he speak against my nation ? how dare he said anything positive about country of enemy? Why he don’t move to Pakistan if he like anything there?

You are substituting blind nationalism with blind religiosity.
So for example today if people are not willing to accept any criticism of their nation. If you substitute religion, then people would not accept any criticism of their religion! Dont people call others who say that Koran and all cannot be a basis of today's laws as it is a arabian tribal laws being forced on everyone as kafir and traitor? Or the same for Christians or Hindus.

What difference did that approach make? You substituted one for the other.
Intelligent nationalists on the other hand always take the right approach. Despite Shabana Azmi or Arundhati Roy being branded by those who dislike their work as traitors and whatnot, they are felicitated in India. They are also nationalists!

Regarding Salman Khan and other people who had to make and then retract their statements, it is obvious that you donot say certain things at certain times even if they are true (or not). You dont goto someone's house where a death has occurred and say 'ok that guy died but you know he deserved it because he has killed many people'. You respect the occasion. This is all there is to it. Also, regardless of who said what, Purohit is in Jail and in trial. What more can i say, that should be evident enough.

You see that is the problem with attitude of nationalist. They don’t look at themselves but put all efforts to find the errors in countries of others and I don’t know which channel you are talking about but whatever you said about conversion is true for india as well

[video] 102 Muslims Convert to Hinduism at Noida ,Uttar Pradesh-January,2012 - YouTube[/video]
[video] Muslims Convert to Hinduism-25 dec,2011-Aligarh, U.P, India - YouTube[/video]
[video] 75 Muslims Convert to Hinduism in Kolkata- 29 Jan, 2012 - YouTube[/video]

And trust me you can find many such videos. You can find all evils in India what you are looking in Pakistan. Its just matter of attitude and approach. There are also many zakir naiks in india who consider themselves muslim before india. There are also many hindutva who talk about hindu nationalism and not Indian nationalism because when they say "hindu" nationalism they exclude muslim and Christian because most of them think hindu is someone whose religion originated in this land.

You are deliberately trying to confuse the issue. When did i say that conversions donot happen? At any given moment there is always a churn in the religions - people converting in and out of their religion. That is a given. It happens in India and sure as hell happens in Pakistan. People convert out of Islam in Pakistan as well. Would you like to see a prime time national telecast of a person converting out of Islam to Hinduism?

The difference i was pointing out and i am rather sure you got it was a prominent TV channel displaying it on prime time television in Pakistan. That sort of a thing is hard to imagine in India. You are displaying random youtube videos here? Do i need to point out a difference? Anyone can upload videos.

Now such an act in India is hard to imagine because the channels would know that the next day morning they would have govt prosecutors at their doorsteps and a few days hence, their channel licence would be revoked. This because the channel grossly hurt the sentiments of a(any) community in India. Would this ever happen in Pakistan? No.

If you were putting nation before religion you would know the disastrous consequences of alienating a minority. However, it was good for Islam as it got a new follower.

Im sure you are intelligent enough to get the point i was/am making here.

Sure you are right about approach of some really secular people but modi is still walking freely. Its like arresting the member of gangs but not the head of gangs when those who got convicted saying it openly that Modi and police help them in killing Muslims.

It is nowhere accepted that Modi did it. If you happen to look at his interviews, he gives a blow by blow account of what actions he took. Do you think that it is possible that Congress govt might be deliberately trying to increase/show his culpability for political gains?

Now with senior ministers being convicted by Court, i would say its a thumping show that no one is scared of anyone. With a whole array of people lined up against Modi, with the Courts being out of Gujarat, if he is culpable, he will be booked.

My discussion was not the aftermath of riots but my point was why religious riots should happen in the first place when sense of nationality is stronger than religion? If all Hindu consider themselves Indians before hindu then they should not killed other innocent Indian Muslims just because they were Muslims and same is true for Muslims. Same logic apply to all other religious debate and conflicts of masjid and mandirs as they all become irrelevant when you place nationality or nation above religion.

Because people react. People are emotional humans. There are moments of insanity when we get swept away. I never said India is irreligious. I said most people put India before their religion most of the times. There are exceptions. Fortunately in India however, they are a minority.

And the times when these sad acts occur. As i said before - its what happens after these acts is what makes the people and the nation. The Muslim and the Hindu community will get balm by these convictions. They will be rewarded for their patience. And they are now being rewarded steadily by the convictions!

You see the problem of blind nationalism there. You are expecting Muslims of India to be anti-pak to prove their loyalty with India. Anti-pak would mean good indian patriot. It would also mean good open minded human beings. I have observed that it will not problem for Indian hindus as much as for indian muslims to say anything positive for Pakistan because they will be told to move in Pakistan or will label as traitor . Well some muslims in india had no choice but to stay in India.

Being nationalistic is better than being religion oriented any day. It teaches you a sense to live in diversity. Yes Indian Muslims are anti-Pak because they like the Indian Hindus and Indian Budhists and Indian Christians have suffered terrorism at the hands of Pakistan.
They also have greater familial ties with Pakistan. It makes them more balanced. Its a simple case that some Indian Muslims put their religion before Nation. Then they get open to be misguided and act against their Nation. And unfortunately they then put a stigma to the whole community because of their actions. But at the bottom the fact remains that most Indian Muslims are as anti-Pak as Hindus. It is Pakistan's actions which will make Indians like or dislike Pakistan.

As time progresses in a few decades, those who label Indian Muslims as traitors for just praising Pakistan will quieten down. Because nationalism is growing in India. And we only yell at others when we are insecure. That insecurity is dying down primarily because we are running ahead of Pakistan now. In a few decades we will make the lead big enough to be in a comfortable zone. India and Pakistan were equal rivals till 2 decades back, it takes time to get out of that competitive comparative mindset.

I personally feel Muslims of sub continent would have never demanded separate land if their Hindu friends would have treated them fairly and would have given them equal political and social rights. Think about it if all was well then why this trouble of struggling for new land? Why founder of Pakistan joined secular party congress and then left it and joined Muslim league?

Muslims of sub continent demanded separate land not because of being treated unfairly. But because they were threatened that the erstwhile prominent position they enjoyed in the Indian society will end as democracy ushers in.

They did not demand equal rights! They demanded rights far greater than being equal! They demanded representation in Parliament FAR greater than their percentage presence in the subcontinent. This loss of unchallenged power of yesteryears was what made them try for a separate nation.

It was not just about religion but hey it was difficult for them to get these rights when some dalits are still struggling to achieve this social equality in india because some Brahman living in some village of India are Brahman before Indian

Hey, every decade with greater literacy and greater economic empowerment we demolish this system. Today it is no longer half as prevalent as it used to be. Give us two or three decades more and you will loose the favourite whip used against India.

my point is very clear - the trendlines in India are very steady and point at one direction. We are steadily reducing poverty, reducing social evils, reducing illiteracy, reducing unemployement.
All our social indicators go up with each passing decade. And they are improving at a faster rate each decade. That prominently includes social evils.