But what if Imran Khan has it all wrong?

[NaMaloom]

I can assure you that this @NaMaloom or whatever is anything but PTIan. In-fact, he (or she) appears to be a Bharati in the guise of a PTI supporter. No PTIan goes after Pakistan military like this poster does. I am actually surprised (or should I?) that he is continuously being allowed to spread disinformation and spew venom against the military.

Silly nonsense by a 'senior' member of the forum. Not surprised I must add. Raising questions and criticizing military actions in order for the military to improve its human rights record isn't spewing venom. Just because you don't like what someone else has to say, it doesn't automatically become 'venom'. Venom is what Difah-e-Pakistan Council, Ludhianvi, Hafiz Saeed spew from grand stages in Pakistan all the time and yet they are allowed to roam freely.

So instead of hitting at the messenger (me), try and argue with the message (the points I raised) with sound facts to support your case instead of jumping up n down and crying 'disinformation', 'spewing venom'. lmao!

I'm all up for military action and killing of TTP dogs; my only point is, don't torture and kill them once they have been captured or after they have surrendered. This is not much to ask to show humanity to fellow humans. And don't say 'oh but they played football with the heads of our soldiers', did this, did that, etc. Two wrongs don't make a right. The difference between Pakistan Army and TTP MUST remain that of civilized conduct.

Maybe. Simply sitting behind the comforts of a computer screen (that is all of us btw) and living in a secular democracy with a properly functioning system (that is you), its easier to argue or pretend that the military must abide by Geneva convention while fighting with a "group of psycopaths" who have no flag and abide by nothing, even signed peace deals with the state but impossible in the world we live in. OK, maybe in the rational utopian world you think you live in (thats a fantasy btw) but take my assurance that real world is massively different. The enemy we fight wears no uniform, is difficult to distinguish from the locals, has a cult following with the general population (which has seen massive reduction since two thousand and eleven), targets indiscrinately and doesn't care for any convention (the one you speak of, are to be followed in spirit by both sides engaged in a conflict). The enemy we fight is nearly aimless, believes in nothing but mindless violence and has loose factions, for it itself is franchising of terror. Then how is it you expect us to read them their Miranda rights at the time of capturing, treat them lawfully, present them in a court of law (in the absence of a free and fair judiciary, that is futile and detrimental to country) and openly announce all actions against them? Its not possible in the first place let alone be practical, doing so will harm the security of this country and endanger the lives of Pakistanis. After all, the welfare of a citizen is the highest law of the state and all that is necessary must be legal even if not otherwise. And only the people fighting against the state are being targeted, there have no action against he sympathizers and supporters or the seminaries churning them out. You are woefully ignorant of ground realities and the nature of the warfare that we are in. Its easier to judge from outside for some supposed violation of human rights, its difficult upto the point of desperation (not so long ago) to fight it. Desperate times, desperate measures. Even in your neighborhood, habeus corpus gets suspended in times of emergencies, what humanity are you looking for those who aren't humans?

A long list of excuses.. oh! and btw, you're sitting behind a computer too. Unless you're under a rock somewhere in North Waziristan Agency, your argument that I'm sitting behind a computer and so not aware of 'real world' situations, is just utter nonsense. The enemy may not wear a uniform but Pakistan Army does and Pakistan is a signatory to Geneva Conventions. So quit making excuses and if u're not happy with Geneva Conventions or think its not 'convenient' for you or Pakistan Army to respect and adhere to those conventions, please take Pakistan's signature back from those conventions and quit parading around as a 'democracy'.

 

[fjavaid]

No, this is not a thread about the punctures issue nor other areas of political showcraft. The question which is going to be explored here is what if Imran Khan has it all wrong when it comes to TTP.

Over the years we have witnessed Imran's carefully crafted narrative in support of negotiating with the TTP. He drew parallels with the IRA peace process and so on. Cutting the long story short, he did manage to convince many people that negotiations are the only option.

Looking at his narrative carefully over the years, i believe that he is not only ill informed about the conflict but also holds a flawed understanding of conflict dynamics concerning TTP vs the State.

We thought that after the spectacular success of operation zarb e azb and APS massacre Mr. Khan would alter his opinions but as soon as Murree negotiations started between two foreign entities he was singing the old song all over again.

1: His narrative that TTP wants negotiations is misleading as there have been half a dozen attempts to achieve it without any success . Swat is a good example of TTPs mercenary nature where they didn't keep their end of the deal .

2: He grossly underestimates what Pakistan Army can do through focused forced projection. He was trying to create a falsehood that Army feels stuck and we should therefore cut a shady deal with the TTP and pull our forces back. Op ZEA has destroyed his claim.

3: He thinks Murree peace process should be repeated with TTP. What he fails to see is that Afghan Taliban haven't been internationally tagged as a terrorist organization while TTP is.This makes any negotiations with TTP unconstitutional.

4: He has no understanding of the tactical situation on the battlefield. Army has squarely won the war and from this point onwards TTP has no sanctuaries in Pakistan. This means that the state only needs to re establish its writ because negotiations with TTP don't offer any strategic advantage.

5: India is backing TTP, so indirectly we would be negotiating with India ? - On what terms? - to what end ?

6: He lacks compassion. Would he have the same opinion if Sulaiman and Qasim were massacred in APS? - I'd doubt that.

7: He is surrounded by fanatics who actually support the TTP. Not just JI but his party itself has people who hold a soft corner for TTP.

8: He can't contemplate how to politically capitalize on a military victory.

9: He thinks its okay to legitimise an international terrorist group by negotiations conducted with the state.

10: He refused to become part of the delegation of negotiators when a last ditch attempt was made before the operation.

In my opinion IKs judgement on TTP issue is flawed on a moral, political, strategic and tactical level. After the success of the operations in North Waziristan he should be calling for only one kind of negotiations, to lay down the terms of TTP's surrender.

------------------------

Share your thoughts.

...balanced....pow......as expected....youtuias cant digest..truth.......pityians only lyk hassan nisar's drunk statements.....

 

[Mrc]

IK is a security threat.. even at begining of zarb e azab all politicians were briefed except him becaz ut was felt he cannot be trusted...
He is more sincere to his psycotic delusion of racial supremacy... he was booed out of APS peshawar even

 

[Husnainshah]

I'm all up for military action and killing of TTP dogs; my only point is, don't torture and kill them once they have been captured or after they have surrendered. This is not much to ask to show humanity to fellow humans. And don't say 'oh but they played football with the heads of our soldiers', did this, did that, etc. Two wrongs don't make a right. The difference between Pakistan Army and TTP MUST remain that of civilized conduct.

Get back to me when your beloved is butchered.

 

[livingdead]

You forgot Nagaland baby. And you have negotiated with Kashmir? Lol!!

nagaland is in NE sweety.(which I mentioned)

 

[NaMaloom]

Get back to me when your beloved is butchered.

In a civilized and law abiding society, no one is allowed to become a vigilante no matter how big a personal loss. Perhaps its time for Pakistan to teach subjects like Civics in middle and high school so that this silly thinking of 'revenge', etc is weeded out. The best revenge is using the laws and civilized response to differentiate between us and them (TTP dogs).

 

[Mrc]

In a civilized and law abiding society, no one is allowed to become a vigilante no matter how big a personal loss. Perhaps its time for Pakistan to teach subjects like Civics in middle and high school so that this silly thinking of 'revenge', etc is weeded out. The best revenge is using the laws and civilized response to differentiate between us and them (TTP dogs).

In worlds most "civilized society" america; terrorists are thrown into guantanamo bay or put onto rendition flights .... they are not afforded any rights...actually stray dogs have more rights then them...

But i agree terrorist shud b just shot in head and thats it...
There is no need to sink to their levels
By the way the talk of flattening cities and rights abuses is bull shit...
Nearly all areas liberated are very peacefull and thankfull...example is swat...where tourism is booming...
Even foreigners have started showing up now...
There has been very little damge in most area due to mil op....

 

[Mrc]

I do talk from personal experience...
Heck one of my friend visited swat on his honey moon trip not long ago

 

[NaMaloom]

In worlds most "civilized society" america; terrorists are thrown into guantanamo bay or put onto rendition flights .... they are not afforded any rights...actually stray dogs have more rights then them...

But i agree terrorist shud b just shot in head and thats it...
There is no need to sink to their levels
By the way the talk of flattening cities and rights abuses is bull shit...
Nearly all areas liberated are very peacefull and thankfull...example is swat...where tourism is booming...
Even foreigners have started showing up now...
There has been very little damge in most area due to mil op....

Two wrongs don't make a right. I don't see myself defending America for anything so your approach to this argument is silly.

The rest of your claims regarding 'very little damage' in most areas due to military Ops is untrue since very little structures remain standing after the Army rolls through after having bombarded the heck out of the area.

Below is the picture of Miramshah's main bazaar from July, 2014 after Pakistan Army pretty much destroyed it all completely

 

[MastanKhan]

Two wrongs don't make a right. I don't see myself defending America for anything so your approach to this argument is silly.

The rest of your claims regarding 'very little damage' in most areas due to military Ops is untrue since very little structures remain standing after the Army rolls through after having bombarded the heck out of the area.

Below is the picture of Miramshah's main bazaar from July, 2014 after Pakistan Army pretty much destroyed it all completely
View attachment 239778

View attachment 239779

Hi,

It the dumbest statement ever used and you are not the only one---" two wrongs don't make a right----" .

There s no such thing as a SECOND WRONG-----the first might be wrong---but the second is an equalizer---maintenance of status quo---maintaining the supremacy of the state---.

 

[Icewolf]

Two wrongs don't make a right. I don't see myself defending America for anything so your approach to this argument is silly.

The rest of your claims regarding 'very little damage' in most areas due to military Ops is untrue since very little structures remain standing after the Army rolls through after having bombarded the heck out of the area.

Below is the picture of Miramshah's main bazaar from July, 2014 after Pakistan Army pretty much destroyed it all completely
View attachment 239778

View attachment 239779

It's not Pak Army's fault that these shop owners were hosting terrorists. Did you know Miramshah did not even have ONE legal electricity meter? The locals were all stealing electricity.

Not to mention that in all these shops there were hidden and unhidden terror hubs. Miramshah was the hub of radicalism and I'm glad it's wiped out. Next time locals can choose more wisely about who they host.

 

[macnurv]

Hi,

It the dumbest statement ever used and you are not the only one---" two wrongs don't make a right----" .

There s no such thing as a SECOND WRONG-----the first might be wrong---but the second is an equalizer---maintenance of status quo---maintaining the supremacy of the state---.

Man you're expecting too much from this PTI'er, lol.

 

[Jango]

Below is the picture of Miramshah's main bazaar from July, 2014 after Pakistan Army pretty much destroyed it all completely
View attachment 239778

View attachment 239779

Talk about cherry picking!

What else do you expect from a war? These things remain untouched?

Did you see Wajahat's documentary from NW a couple days back?

In Mir Ali, which was just like this, FWO was working and building brand new mosques, shops, hospitals, schools and solar tube wells and the sort in the area, all of which the Army destroyed. The facade of those buildings was on par with anything you see in Army cantonments all over the country.

Man you're expecting too much from this PTI'er, lol.

I really love it how everyone is being blindly labeled a PTI'an for no reason at all.

Even if two people say things pole apart, both will be labeled towing PTI's line.

Had hoti hai yar, bas kar do ab.

 

[tarrar]

IK is a amateur politician & he does not think on time or when it is required. He thinks later when all is over & because of this he is always surrounded by problems.

 

[macnurv]

I really love it how everyone is being blindly labeled a PTI'an for no reason at all.

Even if two people say things pole apart, both will be labeled towing PTI's line.

Had hoti hai yar, bas kar do ab.

Blindly labeled? He is an open IK and PTI'er, so what should I call him, an MQM supporter. The funny thing here is, that many of MQM'ers here declare they are not supporters of party but go to great lengths to defend AH and his idiotic behavior.