But what if Imran Khan has it all wrong?

[Musafir117]

Fighting with an enemy who go far behind humanity and asking for mercy on them if they killed in action and few killed in Sawat by local sawati when Army take over Sawat?
They played foot ball with our jawan's head they killed our children in school one by one bullet in their brain and a moron asking to deal with law? I never used a filthy word and hardly control myself this time to use it, as public demand are hang them all on public streets and main crossing all over Pakistan YET our government dealing with them as per national or international law, proceeding in courts even our cowards courts release many if them STILL we bringing them in courts as justice fully served. These ptians never disappoint me and this thread is shocking how they are just defending their cult leader.

 

[syedali73]

These ptians never disappoint me and this thread is shocking how they are just defending their cult leader.

I can assure you that this @NaMaloom or whatever is anything but PTIan. In-fact, he (or she) appears to be a Bharati in the guise of a PTI supporter. No PTIan goes after Pakistan military like this poster does. I am actually surprised (or should I?) that he is continuously being allowed to spread disinformation and spew venom against the military.

 

[Secur]

Your former Army Chief said this and TTP leaders are still alive and in fact there would have been no TTP in first place and you would've not lost 90000 Pakistanis if you would've bothered to listen to him from 2003 when he told you don't enter Tribal areas you would get stuck and face massive backlash and guess what sadly he was proven right.

TTP leaders being alive is neither indicative of the ineffectiveness of military operation nor any negligence on part of the military. Infact, it means nothing in itself. The success of the military operation was to be gauged by the reduction in the operational capabilities of the Taliban and on that criteria, one can compare and see it for himself. Tribal areas are a part of Pakistan which means that the Pakistan Army is mandated to come and go on that territory freely. The very fact that none of the other leaders tried to do that and Mushrraf did (You eventually would have to fight a war against radicalization and extremism anyways) is indicative of their mistake and not Musharraf's. It was disastrous to let the tribal have their way for so long. The locals engaged in all sort of criminal and terrorist activities en masse and a large number of crimes in mainland could be traced back there, a fact again confirmed by the findings of a terrorist economy present in NWA in the recent operations. It was wise to tame them once and for all and bring under control. Thanks but no thanks, no million year old tribal code should govern the matters of a territory subject to the laws of a democracy.

 

[Roger Alpha]

If Mr. Imran Khan is not clear about the role of TTP in Pakistan, ISI should give him thorough briefing on TTP issue as he is the Chairman of ruling party of KPK. This message is sent to Mr. Imran Khan to clear his stance on TTP negotiations, waiting for his reply at any forum.

 

[Zarvan]

@Secur You are wrong and hilarious. And don't quote me here I am not debating this topic here on forum.

 

[Foxtrot-Bravo]

His logic is sound, PA can blunt the TTP attack and reduce their effectiveness in short term, but you cant do it forever. Its a matter of time before it flares up again. PA should only be used to put pressure on TTP to talk on terms that pak politicians feel comfortable.
We Indians have negotiated with every terroist entity, from kashmir to NE. Nothing wrong in negotiation. Ultimately its our own people, if we destroy them what will be left?

You forgot Nagaland baby. And you have negotiated with Kashmir? Lol!!

 

[Musafir117]

I can assure you that this @NaMaloom or whatever is anything but PTIan. In-fact, he (or she) appears to be a Bharati in the guise of a PTI supporter. No PTIan goes after Pakistan military like this poster does. I am actually surprised (or should I?) that he is continuously being allowed to spread disinformation and spew venom against the military.

Syed Bhai I hope your guess should right but I'm seeing this guys in Pak politics always defending PTI and harsh on PMLN and MQM PPP etc like other ptians. Like him and @Norvigeian and an other I'm quoting now if these people like this in PTI line of defend we really need say RIP PTI and if people like them continue increasing I change into RIH PTI.
@Zarvan don't run away I personally request to mods not ban you from this thread or at least reply me a final answer, as per your logic is this operation Operation Zabe Adhab also useless? As it's start from tribal area and still jawans fighting and giving their important life there, simple answer YES or Not.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

TTP is the fault of Pakistani public---. They had their heads up between their ar-ses for so long that till the terrorists did not kill the children at the military school---the Pakistani did not believe that a muslim could do such a thing.

How naïve can the citizens be to believe in such a stupid thing---. TTP got created due to the inactivity of the Pakistani public against them.

Pakistanis have such a shallow understanding of fighting terrorism and its effects----they can talk about the glorious rules of Islam and wars that were won and the invasions that the muslim rulers had of foreign land---but they are totally clueless of how that era of GOLDEN RULE was RULED by the conquerers.

You kids need to get your heads out of where there is darkness and don't just stop at the conquest but read about how the rule of the land was handled by those in power---how the maintenance of ORDER and enforcement of the rule of law was enforced in the society.

Read about the romans---read about Genghis khan---read about the British---read about the Chinese and the Japanese---maybe you will find instances where the state had to deal with terrorists and how they overcame the menace----.

 

[Valkyrie]

Excellent analysis @Horus. Agree with every word you have said. There're a few points i'd like to add.

The most fundamental of misconceptions IK or other proponents of negotiations have is that the likes of TTP and it's sister groups are somehow "our people" who have been misguided, which is absolutely unfounded.

Demographically speaking, major terrorist outfits like TTP, Lashkar-e-Islam etc compromise elements from Uzbek, Tajik, Arab and to some extent Chechen and Russian descent. They're foreigners, not Pakistani people.

Apologists like IK and people having similar opinions seem divorced from ground realities. If they were to visit FATA, they'd know how disgruntled an ordinary tribesman has grown of their increasing menacing activities. Consequently, as a means to defend themselves and their families, they have formed lacal lashkars. These lashkars have been critical in intelligence gathering and physically assisting PA on the ground. If local tribesman don't consider them as a part of them and are actively resisting them, how can we, residing in Islamabad, Lahore or Karachi call them our own? The absurdity of such an argument is self-evident.

All of them including the Pakistani factions fighting the state aren't misguided but brainwashed. There's is clear distinction between the two. The former, like IRA as you pointed out, can be brought to table and reasoned with to eventually reach a agreeable compromise. The latter, the ones fighting Pakistani state in the terrains of FATA are drastically different. They're know to be involved in abduction of civilians and soldiers, have tortured and killed dissidents in the most heinous of ways like beheading, taken control of and expanded drug production/supply to a new level and essentially established a state of their own. Ironically, they have done it all in the name of Islam. These are not the practices of "misguided" ones, they can only be committed by religious zealots who are hell bent on destroying those who differ with them, not engaging in conclusive dialogue. They'll settle for nothing less than total annihilation of our society, culture and traditions. So this situation basically boils down to our own survival vs theirs. It's either us or them.

 

[Zarvan]

Syed Bhai I hope your guess should right but I'm seeing this guys in Pak politics always defending PTI and harsh on PMLN and MQM PPP etc like other ptians. Like him and @Norvigeian and an other I'm quoting now if these people like this in PTI line of defend we really need say RIP PTI and if people like them continue increasing I change into RIH PTI.
@Zarvan don't run away I personally request to mods not ban you from this thread or at least reply me a final answer, as per your logic is this operation Operation Zabe Adhab also useless? As it's start from tribal area and still jawans fighting and giving their important life there, simple answer YES or Not.

Their would have been no need of Zarb e Azb if Musharraf would've avoided make blunders and suicidals moves. Zarb e Azb has to be completed but than we need to pull out Army and deploy FC only. That is major reason that is why I say equip FC and Rangers with IFV and Anti Tank Vechiles and attack helicopters also and increase size.
As for operation we would loose the battle if we tried to force things on tribals. If you have watched last few programs showed on our channels you would've come to know many of these groups had local support, I know tribes they at maximum would accept Army presence for year than they would soon start to get angry. This war could have been avoided Imran was 100 % spot on but Musharraf was too arrogant and his arrogance led to creation of a monster TTP which led to most brutal war and we lost 90000 Pakistanis 900000 precious lives and 90000 families destroyed. General Raheel and General Kiyani had no choice but to face the mess created by Musharraf. Now we have to change policy clear area bring heads of all tribes and have a dialogue with them ask them their demands put forward yours those who want to return from militancy let them return. Finally accept your mistakes and move on. Zarb e Azb has to be completed but after that dialogue with all the tribes and leaders of Tribal areas in which both accept their mistakes and move on and make Pakistan prosper. Finally I don't run away problem is some behaviour of those who control things here.

Excellent analysis @Horus. Agree with every word you have said. There're a few points i'd like to add.

The most fundamental of misconceptions IK or other proponents of negotiations have is that the likes of TTP and it's sister groups are somehow "our people" who have been misguided, which is absolutely unfounded.

Demographically speaking, major terrorist outfits like TTP, Lashkar-e-Islam etc compromise elements from Uzbek, Tajik, Arab and to some extent Chechen and Russian descent. They're foreigners, not Pakistani people.

Apologists like IK and people having similar opinions seem divorced from ground realities. If they were to visit FATA, they'd know how disgruntled an ordinary tribesman has grown of their increasing menacing activities. Consequently, as a means to defend themselves and their families, they have formed lacal lashkars. These lashkars have been critical in intelligence gathering and physically assisting PA on the ground. If local tribesman don't consider them as a part of them and are actively resisting them, how can we, residing in Islamabad, Lahore or Karachi call them our own? The absurdity of such an argument is self-evident.

All of them including the Pakistani factions fighting the state aren't misguided but brainwashed. There's is clear distinction between the two. The former, like IRA as you pointed out, can be brought to table and reasoned with to eventually reach a agreeable compromise. The latter, the ones fighting Pakistani state in the terrains of FATA are drastically different. They're know to be involved in abduction of civilians and soldiers, have tortured and killed dissidents in the most heinous of ways like beheading, taken control of and expanded drug production/supply to a new level and essentially established a state of their own. Ironically, they have done it all in the name of Islam. These are not the practices of "misguided" ones, they can only be committed by religious zealots who are hell bent on destroying those who differ with them, not engaging in conclusive dialogue. They'll settle for nothing less than total annihilation of our society, culture and traditions. So this situation basically boils down to our own survival vs theirs. It's either us or them.

90 % TTP are locals only 10 % are other nationals.
Those interested in more debates with me here is my FB profile debate with me on FB

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[Musafir117]

Their would have been no need of Zarb e Azb if Musharraf would've avoided make blunders and suicidals moves. Zarb e Azb has to be completed but than we need to pull out Army and deploy FC only. That is major reason that is why I say equip FC and Rangers with IFV and Anti Tank Vechiles and attack helicopters also and increase size.
As for operation we would loose the battle if we tried to force things on tribals. If you have watched last few programs showed on our channels you would've come to know many of these groups had local support, I know tribes they at maximum would accept Army presence for year than they would soon start to get angry. This war could have been avoided Imran was 100 % spot on but Musharraf was too arrogant and his arrogance led to creation of a monster TTP which led to most brutal war and we lost 90000 Pakistanis 900000 precious lives and 90000 families destroyed. General Raheel and General Kiyani had no choice but to face the mess created by Musharraf. Now we have to change policy clear area bring heads of all tribes and have a dialogue with them ask them their demands put forward yours those who want to return from militancy let them return. Finally accept your mistakes and move on. Zarb e Azb has to be completed but after that dialogue with all the tribes and leaders of Tribal areas in which both accept their mistakes and move on and make Pakistan prosper. Finally I don't run away problem is some behaviour of those who control things here.


90 % TTP are locals only 10 % are other nationals.

Mushraff sahib only fault was that he didn't finish the job he started kill every rat who threatening Pakistan security all your other rants nothing but twisting your previous story you tell few hours back, I'm again asking if COAS Raheel Sharif Sahib dealing this threat with full force and with out any mercy DO you think it's another mistake by Pak Army to get in tribal areas to fight with terrorists?
Put away FC for a while as they fail to get results and Army has no other way to engage themselves.

 

[Zarvan]

Mushraff sahib only fault was that he didn't finish the job he started kill every rat who threatening Pakistan security all your other rants nothing but twisting your previous story you tell few hours back, I'm again asking if COAS Raheel Sharif Sahib dealing this threat with full force and with out any mercy DO you think it's another mistake by Pak Army to get in tribal areas to fight with terrorists?
Put away FC for a while as they fail to get results and Army has no other way to engage themselves.

Musharraf only fault was he was to loyal to USA he couldn't finish the job because his actions led to birth of TTP and than gave it steroids to become more stronger. General Raheel has to clear the mess which his former coligue and senior created but if this operation is not followed by grand dialogue with our own Tribals and a big deal is not reached with them then it would turn into a mistake. Talk to me here

Welcome to Facebook

Zarvan Bin Sajid

 

[Secur]

Simply saying 'war is ugly' is a easy excuse to absolve oneself of all humanity and get down to the dirty level of the barbarians that we're suppose to be fighting to the point that a time comes where its difficult to tell who the barbarian is.

Maybe. Simply sitting behind the comforts of a computer screen (that is all of us btw) and living in a secular democracy with a properly functioning system (that is you), its easier to argue or pretend that the military must abide by Geneva convention while fighting with a "group of psycopaths" who have no flag and abide by nothing, even signed peace deals with the state but impossible in the world we live in. OK, maybe in the rational utopian world you think you live in (thats a fantasy btw) but take my assurance that real world is massively different. The enemy we fight wears no uniform, is difficult to distinguish from the locals, has a cult following with the general population (which has seen massive reduction since two thousand and eleven), targets indiscrinately and doesn't care for any convention (the one you speak of, are to be followed in spirit by both sides engaged in a conflict). The enemy we fight is nearly aimless, believes in nothing but mindless violence and has loose factions, for it itself is franchising of terror. Then how is it you expect us to read them their Miranda rights at the time of capturing, treat them lawfully, present them in a court of law (in the absence of a free and fair judiciary, that is futile and detrimental to country) and openly announce all actions against them? Its not possible in the first place let alone be practical, doing so will harm the security of this country and endanger the lives of Pakistanis. After all, the welfare of a citizen is the highest law of the state and all that is necessary must be legal even if not otherwise. And only the people fighting against the state are being targeted, there have no action against he sympathizers and supporters or the seminaries churning them out. You are woefully ignorant of ground realities and the nature of the warfare that we are in. Its easier to judge from outside for some supposed violation of human rights, its difficult upto the point of desperation (not so long ago) to fight it. Desperate times, desperate measures. Even in your neighborhood, habeus corpus gets suspended in times of emergencies, what humanity are you looking for those who aren't humans?

@Secur You are wrong and hilarious. And don't quote me here I am not debating this topic here on forum.

Your Taliban friends on the other side of the border would have spilled over here and demanded the football stadium style Islam had they not being contained. At least with this way, we had warning and went in with preparations before the radicalization and extremism caused irreparable damage to the society and country. Before a large portion of our military started agreeing with these animals and before people like you came on streets to demand Pakistan be run like Afghanistan. Sooner or later, regardless of Musharraf, we would have had to fight this war. You and all your excuses aren't going to change jack, looking at the improvement in the security after the operation. Weren't your kind arguing how it will backfire, the war will continue for thousand years and TTP won't be finished and what-not? So what happened? The tribals and their leaders have been in bed with criminals and terrorists alike for long, it was about time they be taken care of. It was about time we put a full stop to the open sale of weapons in the tribal areas or the torture chambers present within most homes or the open market of suicide bombers. The state will not give you another opportunity to do another Red Mosque or APS in this country. Your time is done!

 

[Valkyrie]

90 % TTP are locals only 10 % are other nationals.

You could very well be right about this and since i'm not too well informed regarding ethnic makeup of TTP and similar groups, i wouldn't argue.

The core of my argument, however, still remains irrefutable. The indigenous people of FATA have grown too weary of this whole narrative of "PA is kafir, fights for US and must be destroyed" sold by TTP. They have seen terrorists for what they really are and won't be deceived by promises of good-governance or better socio-economic conditions anymore. They want terrorists out of their localities more than we do because they have experienced their monstrosities first hand.

 

[Zarvan]

Maybe. Simply sitting behind the comforts of a computer screen (that is all of us btw) and living in a secular democracy with a properly functioning system (that is you), its easier to argue or pretend that the military must abide by Geneva convention while fighting with a "group of psycopaths" who have no flag and abide by nothing, even signed peace deals with the state but impossible in the world we live in. OK, maybe in the rational utopian world you think you live in (thats a fantasy btw) but take my assurance that real world is massively different. The enemy we fight wears no uniform, is difficult to distinguish from the locals, has a cult following with the general population (which has seen massive reduction since two thousand and eleven), targets indiscrinately and doesn't care for any convention (the one you speak of, are to be followed in spirit by both sides engaged in a conflict). The enemy we fight is nearly aimless, believes in nothing but mindless violence and has loose factions, for it itself is franchising of terror. Then how is it you expect us to read them their Miranda rights at the time of capturing, treat them lawfully, present them in a court of law (in the absence of a free and fair judiciary, that is futile and detrimental to country) and openly announce all actions against them? Its not possible in the first place let alone be practical, doing so will harm the security of this country and endanger the lives of Pakistanis. After all, the welfare of a citizen is the highest law of the state and all that is necessary must be legal even if not otherwise. And only the people fighting against the state are being targeted, there have no action against he sympathizers and supporters or the seminaries churning them out. You are woefully ignorant of ground realities and the nature of the warfare that we are in. Its easier to judge from outside for some supposed violation of human rights, its difficult upto the point of desperation (not so long ago) to fight it. Desperate times, desperate measures. Even in your neighborhood, habeus corpus gets suspended in times of emergencies, what humanity are you looking for those who aren't humans?



Your Taliban friends on the other side of the border would have spilled over here and demanded the football stadium style Islam had they not being contained. At least with this way, we had warning and went in with preparations before the radicalization and extremism caused irreparable damage to the society and country. Before a large portion of our military started agreeing with these animals and before people like you came on streets to demand Pakistan be run like Afghanistan. Sooner or later, regardless of Musharraf, we would have had to fight this war. You and all your excuses aren't going to change jack, looking at the improvement in the security after the operation. Weren't your kind arguing how it will backfire, the war will continue for thousand years and TTP won't be finished and what-not? So what happened? The tribals and their leaders have been in bed with criminals and terrorists alike for long, it was about time they be taken care of. It was about time we put a full stop to the open sale of weapons in the tribal areas or the torture chambers present within most homes or the open market of suicide bombers. The state will not give you another opportunity to do another Red Mosque or APS in this country. Your time is done!

No again lies you wouldn't had to fight this war and extremism also rose because of Musharraf policies his loyalty to USA gave birth to extremism first out which many turned against us and became partners with TTP. Their would have be no TTP and no extremism if Musharraf would've not taken U turn after 9/11