But what if Imran Khan has it all wrong?

[Side-Winder]

This thread is NOT specific to Zarb-e-Azb so nice try by attempting to restrict discussion to just one Op.

Pakistan: Extrajudicial Executions by Army in Swat | Human Rights Watch

US 'kept Pakistani army Swat murders secret' | World news | The Guardian (source Wikileaks)

In lawless lands: Amnesty charts human rights abuses in Pakistan’s tribal belt | The Bureau of Investigative Journalism

Fact of the matter is, it breaks my heart to see Pakistani generals breeding a culture of impunity for human rights violations amongst their cadres. It is a poison that seeps through every organ of the Pakistani military apparatus, be it the ISI, Rangers, FC, regular Pakistan Army troops, etc. Once your loved one disappears from the streets (taken by plain-clothed folks) or swooped up in a 'fishing' expedition in North Waziristan or other agency; GOODLUCK trying to find that loved one alive!

Exactly what i anticipated --- you're the one who's talking

Whether the article is from 1971, 2010, or any other year, it only goes to show Pakistan Army hasn't learned to stop using torture, extra judicial killings, etc

Now let me come to this...

Once your loved one disappears from the streets (taken by plain-clothed folks) or swooped up in a 'fishing' expedition in North Waziristan or other agency; GOODLUCK trying to find that loved one alive!

We are at war -- You can't expect things to go fair -- Our enemy is hidden in disguise of locals. And honestly most of the locals themselves are responsible for all their miseries. By the way it's these very people who now are being provided with schools colleges hospitals and other facilities after military have cleared these areas off..

 

[NaMaloom]

Oh man, we really want to do this discussion all over again?

BTW, that first link you posted, it says "This killing etc ain't gonna win hearts and minds in Swat". The article was written in 2010.

Let me ask you, have you been to Swat recently?

That's not the point. Point is, when you break laws that govern warfare being the state-sanctioned force (a professional army) you lose all credibility when you try to discredit the non-state actors for their unlawful activities. The end never justifies the means. The means have to justify the end.

Exactly what i anticipated --- you're the one who's talking

Nope. You didn't anticipate anything otherwise you would have a rebuttal ready for me instead of a silly one-liner troll remark.

We are at war -- You can't expect things to go fair -- By the way it's these very people who now are being provided with schools colleges hospitals and other facilities after military have cleared these areas off..

So? You're at war? BIG DEAL. Many countries go to war. That is why there are International Laws that govern warfare to which Pakistan is a signatory. Simply justifying law-breaking for the sake of proving yourself correct is a silly exercise.

 

[Amaa'n]

And you still have nothing to say about the link or refute it. Everyone knows how Pakistan Army cleared Swat agency; brutal tactics (torture, extra judicial killings, etc) that go against Geneva Conventions signed by Pakistan.

and as I asked earlier, did you or any of the NGOs went back to the same place to cover the Area after fierce battle???
where are their cases in the court? is this not what Constitution demands?

Whether the article is from 1971, 2010, or any other year, it only goes to show Pakistan Army hasn't learned to stop using torture, extra judicial killings, etc. Just because it happened in 2009/10 and its 2015 now, doesn't mean it was OK. Such silly arguments from someone branded as an 'analyst' by the powers that be here. What a joke! This guy actually thinks media has 'openly' covered Zarb-e-Azb and not what the ISPR markets to media outlets or I should perhaps say 'what ISPR spoon feeds' Pakistani media to show to gullible folks like @balixd so they can sleep peacefully at night humming to themselves, 'aaaal is well'...

lets just stop with personal attacks, or you will not get any response from me.......YES we had done what you say we did , I have said this before and I say it again....
We were involved in Killings, however not of innocent civilians but of militants, who were caught red handed.....here is a reality check for you, YOUR very own Judges in Rawalpindi ATC gave go ahead for abduction of known terrorists, as they knew they will be acquitted because of LACK OF EVIDENCE.......

 

[Jango]

That's not the point. Point is, when you break laws that govern warfare being the state-sanctioned force (a professional army) you lose all credibility when you try to discredit the non-state actors for their unlawful activities. The end never justifies the means. The means have to justify the end.

Let's all be clear here...there are no laws that govern such warfare.

When a post is attacked in Khyber Agency or somewhere, you repel that attack, maybe take some terrorists hostage. What do you do with those terrorists then?

Ship them off to Peshawar and present them in court? Or take them to your unit and beat the hell out of them and then maybe kill them? I know what I'd do.

Point is, these human rights and laws and fancy arguments are pretty good sounding in a drawing room or in a convention or at a LUMS held event, but ground realities are different my friend. The world doesn't move like that.

You have got to be ruthless against this enemy which has no uniform or a state.

The laws you mention are only applicable when both sides play fair game under an international arbitrator (UN in most cases, yeah it's useless, but that's for another thread). Not in the badlands of FATA.

Pak Army even bothers to gather up the dead terrorists including Uzbeks and Chechens and others and put them in a dala and bury them...I personally would just leave them to rot and be eaten by vultures.

 

[Side-Winder]

Nope. You didn't anticipate anything otherwise you would have a rebuttal ready for me instead of a silly one-liner troll remark.

Please back your claim of "Pakistan army has not learned to stop using brutal tactics and bla bla"
If you can't then please you need a pause.

i can counter all your silly arguments related to talks with TTP. tell you what i used to be a bigger supporter of IK and talks with TTP than you! @Secur Knows me very well.

So? You're at war? BIG DEAL. Many countries go to war. That is why there are International Laws that govern warfare to which Pakistan is a signatory. Simply justifying law-breaking for the sake of proving yourself correct is a silly exercise.

i didn't justify the tactics used to clear swat. im talking about zarbeazb.
Many countries go to war and no one can ever be as lenient with the kind of animals we are fighting as we and our politicians have been..

if you can post a damn article i can post videos like this too

 

[NaMaloom]

and as I asked earlier, did you or any of the NGOs went back to the same place to cover the Area after fierce battle??? where are their cases in the court? is this not what Constitution demands?

It is Pakistan Army's JOB to arrest all TTP PoWs and present them in court; its not an NGO's job. The NGO's aren't the ones conducting secretive operations, killing, arresting whoever with little oversight and accountability. So let's leave the 'shifting the blame' tactic aside where you blame NGOs for something the Army should be doing.

lets just stop with personal attacks, or you will not get any response from me.......YES we had done what you say we did , I have said this before and I say it again.... We were involved in Killings, however not of innocent civilians but of militants, who were caught red handed.....here is a reality check for you, YOUR very own Judges in Rawalpindi ATC gave go ahead for abduction of known terrorists, as they knew they will be acquitted because of LACK OF EVIDENCE.......

So just because the courts aren't functioning perfectly, let's all take the law in our hands and start settling personal disputes, rivalries, enmities, on Pakistan's streets, shall we? Let Pakistanis start killing each other over every petty thing in the streets (on top of all the killing that already takes place across the country for trivial issues) so that every Pakistani whether a soldier or civilian is a vigilante in his own right. Vigilante justice only works in Batman or other made up stories, not real life. That is essentially your approach from what you have written.

Please back your claim of "Pakistan army has not learned to stop using brutal tactics and bla bla"
If you can't then please you need a pause.

i can counter all your silly arguments related to talks with TTP. tell you what i used to be a bigger supporter of IK and talks with TTP than you! @Secur Knows me very well.

Still waiting for your 'counter arguments' aside from you claiming that you 'can' counter. *yawn*

i didn't justify the tactics used to clear swat. im talking about zarbeazb.
Many countries go to war and no one can ever be as lenient with the kind of animals we are fighting as we and our politicians have been..

if you can post a damn article i can post videos like this too

Its not about being 'lenient', its about being able to demonstrate the KEY DIFFERENCE between yourself and them which MUST BE that YOU and I (& our army) follows the LAW while those TTP barbarians do not. But when you and I and our army stop following the LAW, then its a slippery slope from which there is NO return.

Let's all be clear here...there are no laws that govern such warfare.

When a post is attacked in Khyber Agency or somewhere, you repel that attack, maybe take some terrorists hostage. What do you do with those terrorists then?

Ship them off to Peshawar and present them in court? Or take them to your unit and beat the hell out of them and then maybe kill them? I know what I'd do.

Point is, these human rights and laws and fancy arguments are pretty good sounding in a drawing room or in a convention or at a LUMS held event, but ground realities are different my friend. The world doesn't move like that.

You have got to be ruthless against this enemy which has no uniform or a state.

The laws you mention are only applicable when both sides play fair game under an international arbitrator (UN in most cases, yeah it's useless, but that's for another thread). Not in the badlands of FATA.

Pak Army even bothers to gather up the dead terrorists including Uzbeks and Chechens and others and put them in a dala and bury them...I personally would just leave them to rot and be eaten by vultures.

No argument can be had with someone who thinks 'human rights' and following of LAWS of warfare is just a 'fancy argument'. The rest of your post is all about you rationalizing whatever you want to be seen as 'justifiable' by making 'fancy' arguments. The LAW is the LAW, if you're unhappy with it, remove your signature from Geneva Conventions, and stop pretending to be a democracy.

 

[Adecypher]

@NaMaloom Bhai these videos and links are telling a different story...???

After the Taliban: Swat women on changing life

But while going through other videos I found some graphic videos "too graphic to post here " with titles such as this:

Brutal killing of Pashtuns by Pakistan Army in Swat valley
which as @balixd bhai mentioned are of those militants which are caught red handed...and they were dealt in a right manner otherwise you know our Judiciary system these militants would have been released ... to massacre innocent civilians etc etc.

You should understand that war is Ugly...can you provide few examples (if you can) which set the bench-mark in your opinion in regards to fair dealing of an Army (of any Country) that will help me gauge the professionalism you are expecting from Pak Army.

 

[Amaa'n]

It is Pakistan Army's JOB to arrest all TTP PoWs and present them in court; its not an NGO's job. The NGO's aren't the ones conducting secretive operations, killing, arresting whoever with little oversight and accountability. So let's leave the 'shifting the blame' tactic aside where you blame NGOs for something the Army should be doing.

The battleground has been set in Khyber & NWA these days I wonder where the same NGOs are?
as far as above is concerned then, Swat is clear now, NGOs can go in their to question the public on the aftermath of Fight....am sure there will be a difference of Opinion from 2010 to 2015......

So just because the courts aren't functioning perfectly, let's all take the law in our hands and start settling personal disputes, rivalries, enmities, on Pakistan's streets, shall we? Let Pakistanis start killing each other over every petty thing in the streets (on top of all the killing that already takes place across the country for trivial issues) so that every Pakistani whether a soldier or civilian is a vigilante in his own right. Vigilante justice only works in Batman or other made up stories, not real life. That is essentially your approach from what you have written.

and somehow its the Job of Military to strengthen the Judiciary and the Prosecution???
Last I checked Military had done its job of setting up Miltiary courts as per the Legislation approved by the Parliament of Pakistan

Its not about being 'lenient', its about being able to demonstrate the KEY DIFFERENCE between yourself and them which MUST BE that YOU and I (& our army) follows the LAW while those TTP barbarians do not. But when you and I and our army stop following the LAW, then its a slippery slope from which there is NO return.

there are no Laws in a war, its just RoE....and those are being followed very strictly....PLEASE share the UPDATED report if you have any from your favorite NGOs/ HRW on these Ops.......

 

[NaMaloom]

@NaMaloom Bhai these videos and links are telling a different story...???

After the Taliban: Swat women on changing life

But while going through other videos I found some graphic videos "too graphic to post here " with titles such as this:

Brutal killing of Pashtuns by Pakistan Army in Swat valley
which as @balixd bhai mentioned are of those militants which are caught red handed...and they were dealt in a right manner otherwise you know our Judiciary system these militants would have been released ... to massacre innocent civilians etc etc.

You should understand that war is Ugly...can you provide few examples (if you can) which set the bench-mark in your opinion in regards to fair dealing of an Army (of any Country) would help me gauge the professionalism you are expecting from Pak Army.

How do you know those 'militants' were caught 'red handed'? ISPR said so and you shook your head in obedience? Is that it?

Did Pakistan Army release confessions? Footage of their moment of capture? Read those PoWs their Geneva Convention rights or their PoWs rights in Islam? I doubt any of that happened. What most likely happened is, they were made to line up, and executed from behind with a bullet to the head. Only a coward shoots an unarmed man in the back, that is my simple belief.

Simply saying 'war is ugly' is a easy excuse to absolve oneself of all humanity and get down to the dirty level of the barbarians that we're suppose to be fighting to the point that a time comes where its difficult to tell who the barbarian is.

Pakistan's War Against Human Rights Watch | Malik Siraj Akbar

And you ask for example of fair dealing, here it is:

"Thumaamah ibn Athaal – the leader of Bani Haneefah – was brought (to Madeenah) as a prisoner and tied to one of the pillars of the mosque. The Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came to him and said, “What do you think, O Thumaamah?” He said, “What I think, O Muhammad, is good. If you kill me, you will kill one with blood on his hands – i.e., I will deserve to be killed because I have killed Muslims – and if you release me you will release one who will be grateful. If you want money, then ask, and I will give you whatever you want.”

The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) left him for three days, and each day he would come and ask him similar questions, and Thumaamah would give similar answers. After the third day, he commanded that he should be released. Thumaamah went to a stand of date-palms near the mosque where he bathed (did ghusl), then he came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said, “I bear witness that there is no god except Allaah and I bear witness that Muhammad is the slave of Allaah and His Messenger.”

Then he said: “O Messenger of Allaah, by Allaah there was no one on earth whose face was more hateful to me than yours, but now your face is the most beloved of all faces to me. By Allaah, there was no religion that was more hateful to me than your religion, but now your religion has become the most beloved of all religions to me. By Allaah, there was no land more hateful to me than your land, but now your land has become the most beloved to me. Your cavalry captured me when I was on my way to perform ‘Umrah, so what do you think I should do?”

The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) congratulated him, and told him to go for ‘Umrah. When he came to Makkah, someone asked him, “Have you changed your religion?” He said, “No, but I have submitted with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and by Allaah you will not get a grain of wheat from al-Yamaamah unless the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) gives permission.”

 

[Side-Winder]

Still waiting for your 'counter arguments' aside from you claiming that you 'can' counter. *yawn*

I can see your ability to have a reasonable discussion when you have failed to justify your point right here. Instead going like "aahhh ok, i have been caught here, counter my other arguments now" lol

Its not about being 'lenient', its about being able to demonstrate the KEY DIFFERENCE between yourself and them which MUST BE that YOU and I (& our army) follows the LAW while those TTP barbarians do not. But when you and I and our army stop following the LAW, then its a slippery slope from which there is NO return.

Again same point. i don;t understand how you have been failed to see that KEY difference in zarbeazb. enlighten me please.

The key difference in the past has been that these people have been provided with basic life facilities after areas were cleared from militants, bringing them to a normal life like all other pakistanis. And people are happy now.

Something you would rather not like to see cuz it doesn't support your argument...

 

[Adecypher]

How do you know those 'militants' were caught 'red handed'? ISPR said so and you shook your head in obedience? Is that it?

Did Pakistan Army release confessions? Footage of their moment of capture? Read those PoWs their Geneva Convention rights or their PoWs rights in Islam? I doubt any of that happened. What most likely happened is, they were made to line up, and executed from behind with a bullet to the head. Only a coward shoots an unarmed man in the back, that is my simple belief.

Simply saying 'war is ugly' is a easy excuse to absolve oneself of all humanity and get down to the dirty level of the barbarians that we're suppose to be fighting to the point that a time comes where its difficult to tell who the barbarian is.

Pakistan's War Against Human Rights Watch | Malik Siraj Akbar

I understand you point but again I am humbly asking can you provide few examples (if you can) which set the bench-mark in your opinion in regards to fair dealing of an Army (of any Country) that will help me gauge the professionalism you are expecting from Pak Army?

 

[NaMaloom]

I can see your ability to have a reasonable discussion when you have failed to justify your point right here. Instead going like "aahhh ok, i have been caught here, counter my other arguments now" lol

Trolling like a mindless amateur. Still no counter arguments presented, only hot air and silly girly giggling.

Again same point. i don;t understand how you have been failed to see that KEY difference in zarbeazb. enlighten me please.

The key difference in the past has been that these people have been provided with basic life facilities after areas were cleared from militants, bringing them to a normal life like all other pakistanis. And people are happy now.

Something you would rather not like to see cuz it doesn't support your argument...

The point under discussion is the human rights abuses. You don't get a pat on the back for doing your job which is your undertaking by choice in the first place; but you will be questioned for your shortfalls.

I understand you point but again I am humbly asking can you provide few examples (if you can) which set the bench-mark in your opinion in regards to fair dealing of an Army (of any Country) that will help me gauge the professionalism you are expecting from Pak Army?

I did. I edited my previous comment. Please check it.

 

[Jf Thunder]

i agree what Horus says, the TTP is not a negotiable terrorist organization, as they have back stabbed us many times, a peace deal with them will be a betrayal of APS Shuhuda, the Tribals of FATA and the people of Swat

 

[Adecypher]

I did. I edited my previous comment. Please check it.

With that kind of an example my arguments should be well researched rather than a knee jerk response and for that I would come back later...but you know that you are not looking at the complete picture rather focusing on a narrow theme which I agree from a high level raise eye-brows but things are not as simple as white or black in a conflict as such as we are having and the kind of enemy we are dealing with...there are lot of moving parts...I'll come back and will try to appease your concerns.

Already past my scheduled bed time have to wake-up early...

 

[Side-Winder]

Trolling like a mindless amateur. Still no counter arguments presented, only hot air and silly girly giggling.

You're getting pathetic beyond limits. All is asked for was a simple proof to back your claim up.
You want me to counter your pathetic arguments. sure, let me find some free time. and im sure you would become clueless on those too. JUST LIKE HERE

The point under discussion is the human rights abuses. You don't get a pat on the back for doing your job which is your undertaking by choice in the first place; but you will be questioned for your shortfalls.

Show me human rights abuses in zarbeazb? all you have got is swat operation.We might have committed extra judical killings but kiddo nothing goes exactly the way you assume them to go in your fantasies.. No one in the entire world with a military like ours could be as much lenient, inviting these bastards to talks NOT one time.. MULTIPLE times.. no peace treaty ever worked..

The thing is after all that, we have an outcome that is peace has returned to the areas cleared from militants and people are having a normal life like all other pakistanis.