British worried by the Armata and Kurganets

[ptldM3]

Not my claim. The editor of Defence Analysis, Francis Tusa, was quoted as having stated "Apaches are not heavily armoured and it takes just one rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) to bring one down. Compare that with one British Challenger near Basra which survived being hit by 70 RPGs."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2905817.stm

I don't care what some editor claims. There is zero proof of his claims and any common sense says it not possible. Again, there is no way a tank can sustain 70RPG hits just like I can't sustain being shot in the head 70 times even if I wear a ballistic helmet.


Common sense.....

If there is a limited angle from which you can fire and you have only older rpg's (e.g. rpg-7) and face an Chally 2 from the frontal arc,

Why would there be a limited angle that you can fire from? If 70 RPG actually hit a single tank it would only be logical that they would hit the tank in many different areas.

Put differently, why do you assume that in this particular incident near Basra, the RPG shooters were in a position or positions to hit the Chally in vulnerable areas such as rear arc, top, or lower forward belly?

So you are telling me that the Challenge in question was only hit on the frontal arc? Again this is silly, not only are RPGs mobile weapons but most people with half a brain would know that it's better to hit a tank from the rear, top or side. In Urban combat and with 70RPGs being fired it's statistically improbable that all 70 hit one area, which happened to be the best armored area.


Let's be realistic, tanks can be flanked and or be hit in a more vulnerable areas if the person firing the RPG has patience.

It was stated nowhere that the tank was not immobilized via e.g. track damage. Alternatively, if it was in a blocking position and stood its ground, why would the tank want or have to move? Even if damaged, a tank is only lost if it cannot be recovered and put back to service in the field by e.g. ARV and field engineers/maintenance.

I seen a show years ago in where they said the Challenge made it back to base after all those hits, I have seen people on forums over the years also claim the same thing. Now people can't even agree on the details about this myth?

I don't see you having a problem with cases of Chally' s being hit 10-15-20 times and surviving. Why would it be any different for 70 times?

Who said I don't call BS on those claims either? I have seen videos of tanks mostly T-72s survive multiple hits so it's possible but 20...I don't think so....70? That is just absurd.


And like I said, who whould fire that many RPGs at a single tank? At what point would they stop and realize that it's a waste of time and a waste of RPGs? Let's use some common sense, would you fire magazine after magazine from a machine gun at a tank? At what point would you realize it's a waste?


And again who would have that many RPGs on hand either?

Even in Syria which is a much higher intensity conflict than Iraq ever was, with hundreds of videos, I have yet to see a single video where there was even a cache of 70RPGs.

 

[Penguin]

As for tank vulnerability, some analysis of Chechnya conflict, in which tanks fought in urban (built up) setting.
http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/documents/rusav/rusav.htm

Conclusions

The Chechen forces developed effective techniques to defeat Russian armored vehicles on the streets of a large city. Many of their techniques can be adapted by other armed forces which might fight Russian-manufactured armored vehicles (or other types of armored vehicles) in urban combat. These techniques are:

1. Organize anti-tank hunter-killer teams which include a machine gunner and a sniper to protect the anti-tank gunner by suppressing infantry which is accompanying the armored vehicles.
2. Select anti-armor ambush areas in sections of the city where buildings restrict and canalize the movement of armored vehicles.
3. Lay out the ambush in order to seal off vehicles inside the kill zone.
4. Use multiple hunter-killer teams to engage armored vehicles from basements, ground level and from second- or third-floor positions. A problem with the RPG-7 and RPG-18 antitank weapons are the backblast, signature and time lapse between shots. The Chechens solved the time lapse problem by engaging each target simultaneously with five or six anti-tank weapons (obvious requirements for a future anti-armor weapon for urban combat is a low-signature, multi-shot, recoil-attenuated, light-weight weapon which can be fired from inside enclosures. The AT-4 and Javelin do not appear to meet these requirements).
5. Engage armored targets from the top, rear and sides. Shots against frontal armor protected by reactive armor only serve to expose the gunner.
6. Engage accompanying air-defense guns first.

 

[ptldM3]

There are many Hollywood style propaganda claimed by the British.

I have a hard time deciding which will win the nomination. A Challenger surviving 70RPG hits, Battle of Britain or the countless claims out of Syria and Iraq.

My personal favorite is "SAS kills Isis holding sex slaves with an axe".

 

[Penguin]

I don't care what some editor claims. There is zero proof of his claims and any common sense says it not possible. Again, there is no way a tank can sustain 70RPG hits just like I can't sustain being shot in the head 70 times even if I wear a ballistic helmet.

Sure a tank can survive that, provided it is hit in areas of strong armor and when the RPG is an older type (e.g. RPG-7) Point is that while you are possibly correct about there being no absolute proof (beyond report) this happened, there equally is not absolute proof it didn't happen. Conclusion: this claim cannot be verified.

Why would there be a limited angle that you can fire from? If 70 RPG actually hit a single tank it would only be logical that they would hit the tank in many different areas.

Why would there NOT be a limited angle to fire from? Your ' logical' solution isn't necessarily logical e.g. when there is a blocking position that the assaillants cannot get around or flank. Logic does not account for the actual situation which neither you nor I know as yet.

So you are telling me that the Challenge in question was only hit on the frontal arc? Again this is silly, not only are RPGs mobile weapons but most people with half a brain would know that it's better to hit a tank from the rear, top or side. In Urban combat and with 70RPGs being fired it's statistically improbable that all 70 hit one area, which happened to be the best armored area.

No. I've put forward situations where it may be the case that assaillants couldn't get to a position that allowed them to hit top or rear. Do not ignor that Chally's have very thick passive side armor add ons, unlike e.g. Abrams or Leo, or Russian tanks for that matter. Knowing where best to fire doesn't mean you can actually get to that prefered firing position and/or hitting point. That has nothing to do with having half a brain, those are the realities on the battlefield. I for example do not know (and neither do you) whether this particular Chally was in a built up area or had relatively open space around it, and if this was covered by other Chally's and/or mechanized infantry. As for statistically improbable, I have already shown it doesn't take a huge force to bring 70 rpg rounds to the fight and I also posted an article which clearly makes the point that while e.g. Israel v Syria/Egypt tank combat of the 60s and 70s engagements typically took ten's of minutes, in urban combat engagements may go on for hours. 70 round in e.g. 4 hours isn't a huge number, especially when you have a disabled tank being rescued (under fire, with cover from other tanks/infantry), or a tank holding a blocking position.

Let's be realistic, tanks can be flanked and or be hit in a more vulnerable areas if the person firing the RPG has patience.

Absolutely. However, just be cause tha is true in general doesn't mean it is what occurred in this particular incident. That too is logical.

I seen a show years ago in where they said the Challenge made it back to base after all those hits, I have seen people on forums over the years also claim the same thing. Now people can't even agree on the details about this myth?

One would need to establish the original source of this story and judge that. Do you know it? If not, then you are equally not in a position to disprove the story. At least I'm honest about the fact that there are variations of the story present on internet.

Who said I don't call BS on those claims either? I have seen videos of tanks mostly T-72s survive multiple hits so it's possible but 20...I don't think so....70? That is just absurd.

Exactly, you don't think so. Besides, if you start from the pov that it asburd or illogical, the way the mind works is that you will automatically not see or discard evidence or plausible arguments to the contrary.

And like I said, who whould fire that many RPGs at a single tank? At what point would they stop and realize that it's a waste of time and a waste of RPGs? Let's use some common sense, would you fire magazine after magazine from a machine gun at a tank? At what point would you realize it's a waste?


And again who would have that many RPGs on hand either?

Even in Syria which is a much higher intensity conflict than Iraq ever was, with hundreds of videos, I have yet to see a single video where there was even a cache of 70RPGs.

This has been addressed. A two man team can easily haul 8 rounds plus 2 launchers. An urban engagement might take several hours. You may therefor have several teams rotating in and out of battle. Esp. if a tank has been blinded or immobilized, there will be continued efforts to definitively kill it permanently. Esp. if a tank is in a blocking position in a crucial location, there will be continued efforts to definitively dislodge or kill it. Not all troops are equally well trained or flexible enough to employ a variation in tactics. Some troops simply are more fanatical. There are plenty variables involved, all of which can contribute to the (im)plausibility of this claim of 70 rpg hits. LOGIC is not proof.

There are many Hollywood style propaganda claimed by the British.

I have a hard time deciding which will win the nomination. A Challenger surviving 70RPG hits, Battle of Britain or the countless claims out of Syria and Iraq.

My personal favorite is "SAS kills Isis holding sex slaves with an axe".

Yes, you said that already.

Iraqi forces abandoned this unsecured weapons cache near al-Maqal Airfield in northwest Basra. The munitions were strewn about by civilians trying to salvage scrap metal. Parts of this site spontaneously combusted in 120 degree Fahrenheit heat days after this photo was taken. © 2003 Marc Garlasco / Human Rights Watch
https://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/usa1203/6.htm

I suggest to google: rpg cache basra 2003

Operation Clear Area [Videos] – Italian personnel catalogue weapons seized from a hidden cache, including 151 rocket propelled grenade launchers.
http://wikivisually.com/wiki/Operation_Clear_Area

 

[randomradio]

The CR2's been uparmoured to 75 metric tonnes. They gave up mobility for protection.

 

[Penguin]

@ptldM3: While we can debate a single case of an Chally 2 in Basra to death here, there are several other ' undisputed cases' of this tank and crew surviving multiple RPG hits, yes? In the context of the thread, the point of contention was whether or not this and/or taking out T-72 and older T-series constitutes 'combat proven'. Do you consider Chally 2 combat proven? And, more in general, do you think Chally 2 is poorly protected? Could you elaborate in your answer as to why/why not?

 

[randomradio]

@ptldM3: While we can debate a single case of an Chally 2 in Basra to death here, there are several other ' undisputed cases' of this tank and crew surviving multiple RPG hits, yes? In the context of the thread, the point of contention was whether or not this and/or taking out T-72 and older T-series constitutes 'combat proven'. Do you consider Chally 2 combat proven? And, more in general, do you think Chally 2 is poorly protected? Could you elaborate in your answer as to why/why not?

The story is apparently 70 rounds fired at the tank, including RPGs. It's not such a big deal. Here's a Soviet era T-72 absorbing two hits in quick succession.

If an ancient T-72 could survive that, a modern CR2 can too.

It ain't all fun and games though.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1551418/MoD-kept-failure-of-best-tank-quiet.html

 

[ptldM3]

@ptldM3: While we can debate a single case of an Chally 2 in Basra to death here, there are several other ' undisputed cases' of this tank and crew surviving multiple RPG hits, yes? In the context of the thread, the point of contention was whether or not this and/or taking out T-72 and older T-series constitutes 'combat proven'. Do you consider Chally 2 combat proven? And, more in general, do you think Chally 2 is poorly protected? Could you elaborate in your answer as to why/why not?

Is the Challenger a good tank? Yes.

Well protected? Yes.

Combat proven? Yes.

Can it sustain hits from various munitions? Yes.


The problem is with believing that a Challenger or any tank can sustain 70RPG hits. There are many problems with that claim and no reliable proof exists that support the claim. RPGs are powerful weapons that have been portrayed as weak but at the same time the Abrams, Merkava, ect have been portrayed as invincible. Hyping something up and actually seeing it perform are two different things.

I have spoke to one person that was friends with an Abrams tank commander in Iraq. The tank commander claimed that RPG-7s "pinged" off the Abrams. That is a dubious claim since we know RPG-7 will atleast have some penatration and or blow off armor plates and such. So again there is a lot of misinformation and bending of the truth. Most likely the tank commanders tank was hit with 12.7 mm rounds or he is lying.


Like I mentioned earlier RPG-7 are powerful enough to blow off side armor plates, this is another thing to consider.

Hasn't the Procurement of the PAK-FA been cut from 55 planes to only 12 due to budget cuts?

No, the program would be scrapped if that was the case. This is likely the pre production batch.

 

[Zarvan]

Size of European Armed Forces is nothing but a joke and as threat are increasing they instead of increasing there size are now reducing it so I hope they wake up and increase the size other wise the threat off all kinds will keep increasing for them.

 

[Penguin]

Size of European Armed Forces is nothing but a joke and as threat are increasing they instead of increasing there size are now reducing it so I hope they wake up and increase the size other wise the threat off all kinds will keep increasing for them.

While UK will be reducing the number of MBTs, Germany and other countries have begun to increase the number of MBTs. Many of the 2500 Leo2 of Germany are now spread around other countries in Europe. Germany will seek to codevelop a new MBT with France. Italy maintains Ariete. UK remains to be seen what if any comes up as Chally replacement.

 

[jamal18]

Full of nonsense article. C-130 can carry more than 38tons? And armata as if some tank need to be so fearful? Russia is having a serious shortage of military fund and cuts. How can Russia be more of a threat to U.K.?

I think U.K. is more a threat than Russia.

There is a concerted agenda of declaring Russia to be an imminent threat. Utter garbage and lies.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

The CR2’s 1200bhp is generated by a Perkins CV12 26 litre diesel engine. The gearbox is a David Brown TN54 epicyclical transmission with 6 forward and 2 reverse gears. It has a 450km on road and 250km cross country capability. Many publications claim the Challenger 2 has a top road speed of 59km/h, however this only a requirement …..

The engine is electronically governed to 3200 RPM and that in 6th gear is it capable of 70km/h (road speed and cross-country) thanks to its Hydropneumatic suspension AKA Hydrogas. It uses a nitrogen springing medium, which is approximately six times more flexible than conventional steel as used in TorsionBar suspension. This allows the CR2 to maintain a relatively high speed as the nitrogen springing easily absorbs irregularities in the terrain it crosses in comparison to TorsionBar.

The TA (Track adjuster) is a hydraulically extended wheel on an Exocentric axle fixed to a ram operated by the driver. This allows him to adjust the tightness of the track and avoid any unnecessary stress on the William Cook Defence double-pinned tracks. It also increases the ease and maintenance of the tracks to get them off.

http://tanknutdave.com/the-british-challenger-2-main-battle-tank/

Nice, you just missed this thing that the heavy tank is powered by a paltry 1200 BHP engine. In your effort to dazzle me with your scholarship you didn't notice that it is the honda civic of tanks. A kind of 'do well in city' tank to take your wife shopping.

Ok, so, I see you are not backing your claim up with specific cases that can be verified.

WHICH CURRENT TANKS HAVE BEEN HIT BY AND SURVIVED T-72 125MM Smoothbore GUNFIRE FIRED IN ANGER? BECAUSE YOU CLAIM THAT IS THE ONLY STANDARD FOR DETERMINING ' COMBAT PROVEN' .
(that means also that any test firings are not permissable evidence)

I'm not against Arjun, but to claim it is the best in the world simply is silly.

I never said Arjun is best. I said it has taken direct hits from T 72. Arjun is heavy yet has enough low ground pressure to operate in desert. That fact is it is too heavy for built infrastructure (rail, road etc.) in Indian war terrain- that happens to be the real issue. Army can't say that openly because they've been asking for all sorts of goodies that can only come at weight. So they point to all sorts of others things.

 

[Penguin]

Nice, you just missed this thing that the heavy tank is powered by a paltry 1200 BHP engine. In your effort to dazzle me with your scholarship you didn't notice that it is the honda civic of tanks. A kind of 'do well in city' tank to take your wife shopping.

Clearly, the reference to the possibility of putting in a 1500 hp MTU europack indicates I am aware that the current engine is less than 1500 hp. It is rather interesting though that even with 15 tons add on armor elements added, it still manages 5ikm/h with that 1200 hp Perkins CV12 (and more without those add-ons). Your claim that Challenger 2 is the Honda Civic of tanks is put forward without any kind of explanation of why that is so or any kind of evidence spporting that claim.

I never said Arjun is best. I said it has taken direct hits from T 72. Arjun is heavy yet has enough low ground pressure to operate in desert. That fact is it is too heavy for built infrastructure (rail, road etc.) in Indian war terrain- that happens to be the real issue. Army can't say that openly because they've been asking for all sorts of goodies that can only come at weight. So they point to all sorts of others things.

You have yet to come up with a list of MBTs that has been hit in combat by a round of 125mm smoothbore ammo. I'll give you a break, what tanks have actually faced a more modern tank than T-72 on the battlefield (leave alone being engaged by it)?

Armor tests are disqualified by your own definition of ' combat proven' .[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Clearly, the reference to the possibility of putting in a 1500 hp MTU europack indicates I am aware that the current engine is less than 1500 hp. It is rather interesting though that even with 15 tons add on armor elements added, it still manages 5ikm/h with that 1200 hp Perkins CV12 (and more without those add-ons). Your claim that Challenger 2 is the Honda Civic of tanks is put forward without any kind of explanation of why that is so or any kind of evidence spporting that claim.


You have yet to come up with a list of MBTs that has been hit in combat by a round of 125mm smoothbore ammo. I'll give you a break, what tanks have actually faced a more modern tank than T-72 on the battlefield (leave alone being engaged by it)?

Armor tests are disqualified by your own definition of ' combat proven' .

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

yeah 25 years after they were inducted they'll be upgraded to 1500 BHP. Great timing dude. You can reliably estimate that Abrams, Amaratana, Le Clerc and Arjun (because it has taken the hit in tests) will survive the T 72 attacks. I'm sure like 2 days before retirement the damn things can get a 300 BHP upgrade.

 

[Penguin]

yeah 25 years after they were inducted they'll be upgraded to 1500 BHP. Great timing dude. You can reliably estimate that Abrams, Amaratana, Le Clerc and Arjun (because it has taken the hit in tests) will survive the T 72 attacks. I'm sure like 2 days before retirement the damn things can get a 300 BHP upgrade.

yadayada. How long did the development of Arjun take again? With inputs from how many countries? How many units now? What combat record?

The actual Chally 2E proved the concept of a different powertrain in real life.

Clearly I didn't claim current UK Chally's will get a 1500hp new powerpack. Then again. who is to say the ongoing CLEP program will not result in such an upgrade, if only as an option? Chally's terrain speed is incidentally more a function of its suspension that it is of HP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_2#CLEP
http://www.monch.com/mpg/news/14-land/556-challenger-2-life-extension-project-awards.html
http://www.janes.com/article/62913/final-bids-in-for-challenger-2-lep

You keep going back to test situations. Do you really believe (armors of) other tanks have not undergoing life fire trials? I mean, you are dealing with folks like Germans, French and Brits, which pretty much invented the modern tank.B ut anyway, your remark was about what constitutes ' combat proven' and such tests do not.... ever. Likewise, estimates don't make a tank combat proven either.

Also, you fail to take into account that it is Brit invented armor that is applied in e.g Abrams. The Germans developed a similar armor for its Leo2 at about the same time. Application thereof is why Leo2 prototypes went from looking like a larger Leo1A4 to a truly different tank.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chobham_armour