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Breaking news : General killed in Pakistan crash

26 Bell 412 EP helicopters are formally handed over to Pakistan Army by US ambassoder in Pakistan. This happened in October 2007 (last year).

Earlier these helicopters are being used by Paksitan Army since 2004, when thay were leased to Army. They are not refurbished, rather brand new.

My only point to raise is that, Helicopter was flown by two junior captains as crew. I think, to fly a mission as important as having General Officer Commanding, two Brigade commanders, onboard, for a recconisance mission, in a hostile area, with rough terrain down, a senior pilot (may be a major), must be in cockpit. This entails better handling of an emergency, based on more exposure and experience.

If somebody can recall, a Bell 412 of Army crashed in a lake near Bannu (NWFP), a couple of years ago. Two pilots, among the dead were junior captains. These helicopters are new, and reliable, so human errror cannot be ruled out.
 
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The helicopters were reported to have problems, but were "working fine". It has nothing to do with the militants or the hostile area. I hope that we can cut on some assumptions.

Thanks.
 
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May Allah give them the maqam of janat-ul-firdus and may their souls rest in peace.(ameen)
 
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Really sad news, but a mute point for all of us to grasp. Death will come to all of us, and contrary to what we think, it may be sooner than we expect. We need to ensure that our deeds are such that we can hold our head high and not have it bowed in shame in front of Allah SWT.
May Allah forgive all our sins and give comfort to their families and grant them their just rewards.Ameen.
WaSalam
Araz
 
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Really sad news, but a mute point for all of us to grasp. Death will come to all of us, and contrary to what we think, it may be sooner than we expect. We need to ensure that our deeds are such that we can hold our head high and not have it bowed in shame in front of Allah SWT.
May Allah forgive all our sins and give comfort to their families and grant them their just rewards.Ameen.
WaSalam
Araz

Good post, sir!
 
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There are some odd coincidences surrounding this crash.

* Hours before the crash was reported, Taliban militants based in Pakistan said they were going to initiate a ceasefire on the Pakistani side. This decision was made due to the Pakistan Army's own recent policy of deliberate restraint and good judgement from it's side.

* FATA is well within range of NATO radar and SAM batteries as well as EMF jamming equipment which can induce a total communications blackout on an ordinary chopper. Also that area can be easily used on the afghan side by a special ops group with similar equipment which can sabotage choppers with stealth.

* The official press release by the army seemed overanxious to emphasize no foul play was suspected whilst providing absolutely no hint of the "technical fault" which allegedly caused the crash. This hints at extreme pressure being applied from above to discount any suggestion of foul play from the earliest.

Could this crash be a hidden message to the army from someone, to stop scaling back it's offensive opperations? Or was it the taliban itself or Al Qaida who shot it down with technical help from a foreign power? India, Russia and of course the US and UK all have presence in Afghanistan but the border area is dominated by the US if I am not mistaken.

Can anyone confirm or deny the ceasefire with taliban just prior to this "accident"? Also...during the press conference was there any mention made of communication from the chopper about a tech problem before the crash?
 
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The helicopter hit some natural growth upon take-off. There really is no foul-play involved in this accident.
 
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There are some odd coincidences surrounding this crash.

* Hours before the crash was reported, Taliban militants based in Pakistan said they were going to initiate a ceasefire on the Pakistani side. This decision was made due to the Pakistan Army's own recent policy of deliberate restraint and good judgement from it's side.

* FATA is well within range of NATO radar and SAM batteries as well as EMF jamming equipment which can induce a total communications blackout on an ordinary chopper. Also that area can be easily used on the afghan side by a special ops group with similar equipment which can sabotage choppers with stealth.

* The official press release by the army seemed overanxious to emphasize no foul play was suspected whilst providing absolutely no hint of the "technical fault" which allegedly caused the crash. This hints at extreme pressure being applied from above to discount any suggestion of foul play from the earliest.

Could this crash be a hidden message to the army from someone, to stop scaling back it's offensive opperations? Or was it the taliban itself or Al Qaida who shot it down with technical help from a foreign power? India, Russia and of course the US and UK all have presence in Afghanistan but the border area is dominated by the US if I am not mistaken.

Can anyone confirm or deny the ceasefire with taliban just prior to this "accident"? Also...during the press conference was there any mention made of communication from the chopper about a tech problem before the crash?

dear sir,
can u back your theory with facts?
 
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"...can u back your theory with facts?"

No. Of course not. The same claim issued by him at WAB got him banned by a Canadian Colonel. Radar detection on a chopper flying in Pakistan's hills and mountains from Afghanistan? Detection lanes through those mountains would be...uh...narrow.

It's ludicrous, mean-spirited, and ignores the fact that the Americans on the border HAVE NO SAM BATTERIES. What the hell would we need that for in Afghanistan?

Flying squirrels?
 
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dear sir,
can u back your theory with facts?

You mean my speculative scenario? The assertions I have made with asteriks, stars are the facts which I was trying to verify to give support to my theory. Lets look at them one by one.

* Hours before the crash was reported, Taliban militants based in Pakistan said they were going to initiate a ceasefire on the Pakistani side. This decision was made due to the Pakistan Army's own recent policy of deliberate restraint and good judgement from it's side.

I read this somewhere else and asked for confirmation here. I have read many times before of how the pak army negotiates ceasefires with tribals in order to stop retaliation against itself and pakistani civilians by the tribals/taliban and many times this seems to anger NATO/US. It is partly because of US pressure that military operations are conducted against tribal areas and whenever the pak army makes a ceasefire deal with the tribals we hear angry and dissapointed complaints being expressed in western media. Am I right about that? If I am wrong then correct me but it is my belief that the US/UK/NATO alliance gets quite angry at pakistan if the army is "nice" to the tribals. They complain that this way it gives them more leeway to plan attacks against their own positions in Afghanistan.

* FATA is well within range of NATO radar and SAM batteries as well as EMF jamming equipment which can induce a total communications blackout on an ordinary chopper. Also that area can be easily used on the afghan side by a special ops group with similar equipment which can sabotage choppers with stealth.

Well Waziristan is obviously right near the border with Afghanistan and the Pakistani army is not allowed in there obviously. We do know that NATO has posession of advanced AWACS type of planes and sophisticated surface to air missiles. At least that is the impression that I have got. From what I gather there are also some F-22 stealth fighters in Afghanistan. I don't know much about the standard issue equipment of any military actually but I think it is a reasonable assumption to conclude that any air force would keep communications jamming gear at hand. This so far I believe to be fact, correct me if I am wrong about any of this.

Now on to the second part of my speculation. I theorize that there are various special ops groups operating in Afghanistan itself, groups like the Delta Force, rangers, SAS etc who have specialized and advanced weaponry available to them that the standard AF or army person will not have. We know India and Russia both have very strong interest and curiosity in Afghanistan post 2001. In fact India has 14 consulates operating in afghanistan now, right? We know how innovative and technically adept the russians are and we know India has access to russian as well as Israeli military technology. So it is not too unreasonable to assume that Russian and Indian special force ops in Afghanistan can get their hands on mobile SAM launchers and jamming equipment, is it? So now we have special ops from a half dozen countries potentially ready for a sabotage mission on a chopper to "send a message" and simultaneously demoralize the pak army. Also...these are the kinds of missions that special ops do right? Sabotage etc etc with standard and non-standard issue weapons? Also special services are famous for conducting false flag operations at certain times. So any of these agencies could have sneaked in there and done the sabotage and blamed it on someone else or on random "taliban" or "al qaida".

Do I have to remind anyone of how badly Russians and Indians might want to get revenge by shooting down a chopper just at the right time? And by timing it right they can blame NATO(false flag op). Or it could be a special forces attack from within NATO itself. Like a covert op or even some splinter group that operates outside the regular military.

* The official press release by the army seemed overanxious to emphasize no foul play was suspected whilst providing absolutely no hint of the "technical fault" which allegedly caused the crash. This hints at extreme pressure being applied from above to discount any suggestion of foul play from the earliest.

Well here I am going by what I had heard originally in the news report. That it was an accident but no further details were given. In other words foul play was RULED OUT but the reason it was ruled out was not given. Usually in situations like that they say "cause is unclear but as yet no foul play has been established". Then later on they decide if foul play was involved or not. But here in the news report it was stated as being an accident but absolutely no reason was given for that assumption! This looks very odd to me. Only recently have I heard that some plant went into the machinery on liftoff. I had no idea the chopper did not get a chance to fly around much.

Yeah so anyway these were the facts I built my theory around. It's a suspicion and obviously I cannot provide any proof because I am not the one collecting and gathering evidence, I am jut making an observation. Like I said these are all coincidences but you can see the logic in connecting the dots for the suspicion, right?
 
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until or unless anyone can come up with a better explaination, we should stick to this...

Pakistan Army announces loss of Bell 412
Gareth Jennings Jane's Aviation Reporter - London

A Pakistan Army Bell 412 utility/transport helicopter crashed in the sensitive South Waziristan region of the country on 6 February with the loss of eight on board, the army has announced.

Pakistan security forces have been engaged in operations against Islamic militants in the area, which borders Afghanistan, although the army has discounted suggestions that the helicopter was brought down by hostile action. Local media sources have reported that an army general in charge of anti-Taliban operations in the area was among the dead.

Although the cause of the crash has not yet been established, a Pakistan Army spokesperson has said that he believes it may have been caused by a technical malfunction.

The army received 26 twin-engine Bell 412 helicopters from the United States in 2004 to boost the country's utility/transport helicopter fleet. The Pakistan armed forces operates a wide array of utility helicopter types, including the Russian Mil Mi-17, the US Agusta-Bell AB 205A-1 and Bell UH-1H Iroquois and the French Aerospatiale SA 330J Puma.
 
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SAM batteries? Where and for what? RAPTORS in Afghanistan. Get real. Bagram AFB is in an open valley. Anybody that wishes can easily view what comes in and out. What would the world's premier AIR SUPERIORITY fighter be doing there or anywhere in Afghanistan?

False flags?

The only false flags being run up a pole at this point are by you. Start sourcing. You're otherwise beyond the pale.

Oh! The grand biggie...definitely, absolutely provide ONE SOURCED QUOTE by an American, British, or NATO official that's expressed dismay at Pakistani negotiations with northwest or baluchi TRIBAL LEADERS. Not that ONE makes a case, but would at least provide you with a TOEHOLD on credibility to go further. I say this in light of the importance which American PRTs place on relationships with Iraqi and Afghani tribes.
 
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Raptors are meant for Home Land Security only!

Only recently Raptors Intercepted the Russians Strategic Bombers flying in Pair (TU-95s) over International Waters near North American Airspace and Escorted them back from the Airspace breach. This was the first of the missions Raptors were used for Interception against any Foreign Fighter.

Raptor in Afghanistan is impossible to believe!
 
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Ok so I made a mistake about the Raptors. I had just read somewhere they had some in Afghanistan and I thought they had put a few of them in Afghanistan in preparation for future strikes on Iran or something like that. The existence of Raptors has very little bearing on my theory of foul play. In fact a Raptor would be a ridiculously stupid and "noisy" and highly visible way to take a chopper down. Special ops trained in sabotage could do it much more quietly and smoothly, if indeed there was foul play and it wasn't an accident.

Also one of the taliban could have been supplied with SAMs by someone who knows. Just because most of the violence occurs due to someone strapping sticks of dynamite under their jacket doesn't mean that nobody else is left in this world who can conduct more sophisticated and accurate acts of sabotage.
 
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