Breaking News : FIA raids House of Dr Arsalan

[Ssan]

Pre-poll rigging is not a claim. It is a fact. Panama was the launching point, but it can not be called the reason or effect of pre-poll rigging. PML-N tried to paint Panama Leaks as a conspiracy, but they were wrong in their rhetoric. Panama or no Panama, pre-poll rigging was going to happen regardless. It was a matter of control for Establishment & Panama was merely a bit of an excuse.

Sorry bro, I think you/your narrative is suffering from cognitive dissonance here. Panama leaks was a global phenomenon and the establishment had nothing to do with it. In most civilized countries, if you have an offshore undeclared account ***and you are a politician***, then this is a red flag for corruption. More than one global leaders caught up in this leak had to leave politics forever. NS is hopefully just one of them.

I’m not denying that pre-poll rigging might have been done by establishment. But said rigging would not have been significant, Panama was/is. Before Panama, NS would have absolutely won again.

This is despite the SC which disqualified him having pro-NS leanings. In any civilized country, the punishment would have been way more. The SC gave him over a year to give any defense- nothing was brought.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I have zero personal interest in PML-N, but I have a lot at stake in Pakistan. So I do what I think needs to be done. If it is supporting PML-N during the time of its persecution, then so be it. If it means to stand against anti-army rhetoric, even conditionally, then so be it.

The gist of your entire argument boils down to, I have a soft corner for the PMLN, and therefore I will justify the Army leadership plotting to overthrow the PTI government and installing a corrupt PDM government and also justify the Army & PDM's crackdown on the PTI ... and somehow think that this will magically improve Pakistan and fix the system.

This is the crux of the issue with Pakistan's so called intelligentsia that claim to stand for principles and the constitution - it goes out the window so long as THEIR favorite is being propped up, and why the LUMSU, Aurat March & Khooni Liberal crowd have never found much traction - their hypocrisy & selective outrage is obvious to everyone.

You couldn't tie yourself in more knots than Rana Sanaullah would leading a 'Don't Do Drugs' campaign.

 

[Ssan]

Do note that there were many other names in Panama Leaks, IK being one among them. There were others too. Founding a company in Panama was not the issue as such. The problem was the funds handled & their sources. Do note that NS had a valid defense. Otherwise PTI-aligned judges would not be using novel interpretation of Black Law dictionary & get stuck on non-declaration of un-received salary.

Too many clear errors here/ biases. This reads as a N propaganda para.
1: where is IK in Panama papers? He’s not.
2: what was the valid NS defense for source of wealth for his London properties? There was no defense. None was offered.
3: PTI aligned judges in the SC when everyone acknowledges that if anything Iftikhar Chaudhury purged the judiciary to make it pro-NS and the same judges have looked the other way for decades and given leave on various technicalities? It’s a hell of a thing to manage to make the SC pro PTI when they’ve never been in power.
4: most countries (with rule of law) have rules where burden of proof is laid on the politician to provide source of wealth. Here wiki:- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unexplained_wealth_order

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

3: PTI aligned judges in the SC when everyone acknowledges that if anything Iftikhar Chaudhury purged the judiciary to make it pro-NS and the same judges have looked the other way for decades and given leave on various technicalities? It’s a hell of a thing to manage to make the SC pro PTI when they’ve never been in power.

The judicial reforms ushered in post NRO make it extremely difficult for a new entrant into power (such as the PTI) to stack the judiciary in its favor.

The Legal Thug Associations ... sorry ... bar associations, are stacked with PMLN & PPP loyalists, and they have a lot of influence when it comes to judicial appointments.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Too many clear errors here/ biases. This reads as a N propaganda para.
1: where is IK in Panama papers? He’s not.
2: what was the valid NS defense for source of wealth for his London properties? There was no defense. None was offered.
3: PTI aligned judges in the SC when everyone acknowledges that if anything Iftikhar Chaudhury purged the judiciary to make it pro-NS and the same judges have looked the other way for decades and given leave on various technicalities? It’s a hell of a thing to manage to make the SC pro PTI when they’ve never been in power.
4: most countries (with rule of law) have rules where burden of proof is laid on the politician to provide source of wealth. Here wiki:- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unexplained_wealth_order

1:

https://twitter.com/x/status/891952420510732288

2. NS said that he was not the owner.
3. Its not about PTI at all, though one could argue about Saqib Nisar's household being strongly influenced by PTI. Its something else entirely.
4. OK.

Sorry bro, I think you/your narrative is suffering from cognitive dissonance here. Panama leaks was a global phenomenon and the establishment had nothing to do with it. In most civilized countries, if you have an offshore undeclared account ***and you are a politician***, then this is a red flag for corruption. Most global leaders caught up in this leak had to leave politics forever. NS is hopefully just one of them.

I’m not denying that pre-poll rigging might have been done by establishment. But said rigging would not have been significant, Panama was/is. Before Panama, NS would have absolutely won again.

This is despite the SC which disqualified him having pro-NS leanings. In any civilized country, the punishment would have been way more. The SC gave him over a year to give any defense- nothing was brought.

I think I was not clear & did not convey what I wanted to say.

Panama Papers was not a conspiracy as claimed by its afectees. It was a journalistic endeavor that included many journalists across continents, including Umar Cheema in Pakistan. The organization that rolled it out is International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (icij.org). Pakistan's Establishment had nothing to do with it. However, once the story broke, it was a godsend for launching a get-Nawaz move by Establishment. I hope this clears it.

 

[Ssan]

1:

https://twitter.com/x/status/891952420510732288

2. NS said that he was not the owner.
3. Its not about PTI at all, though one could argue about Saqib Nisar's household being strongly influenced by PTI. Its something else entirely.
4. OK.


I think I was not clear & did not convey what I wanted to say.

Panama Papers was not a conspiracy as claimed by its afectees. It was a journalistic endeavor that included many journalists across continents, including Umar Cheema in Pakistan. The organization that rolled it out is International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (icij.org). Pakistan's Establishment had nothing to do with it. However, once the story broke, it was a godsend for launching a get-Nawaz move by Establishment. I hope this clears it.

1) misinformation- he is not in the Panama papers. Find a valid source to back up your claim and not a random tweet. I can put up a tweet on twitter with a random fake account that chakBammuLimited offshore account proves something or the other. Else retract your claim.
2) okay but he was/is.
3) the SC / judges have a history of letting off PPP PML-N on technicalities. They have a pro purana Pakistan bias if anything.

Party Y gives money to random mob to protest against party x - pre poll rigging sure. party Y pressurizes members of party X to leave him, pre poll rigging? sure.
Party X gets caught up in international conspiracy/news. Party Y files a case against party X, party X gets disqualified. Accountability or pre-poll rigging? Accountability I would argue here.

 

[Chak Bamu]

The gist of your entire argument boils down to, I have a soft corner for the PMLN, and therefore I will justify the Army leadership plotting to overthrow the PTI government and installing a corrupt PDM government and also justify the Army & PDM's crackdown on the PTI ... and somehow think that this will magically improve Pakistan and fix the system.

This is the crux of the issue with Pakistan's so called intelligentsia that claim to stand for principles and the constitution - it goes out the window so long as THEIR favorite is being propped up, and why the LUMSU, Aurat March & Khooni Liberal crowd have never found much traction - their hypocrisy & selective outrage is obvious to everyone.

You couldn't tie yourself in more knots than Rana Sanaullah would leading a 'Don't Do Drugs' campaign.

All of the above is in bad faith. The proof is in the last line. It also shows how you get swayed by PTI propaganda. How come Rana Sanaullah could not be convicted? It was obviously a bogus case drummed up under pressure by ANF.

Saying that " I have a soft corner for the PMLN, and therefore I will justify the Army leadership plotting to overthrow the PTI government" does not try to stuff words in my mouth that I never said, but also shows your shallow understanding of what I have actually been saying. I have always maintained that Generals must not indulge in politics, because it always produces awful results. If they stepped back & let IK's govt crumble under the weight of his ego-laden stupidities, how is it anybody's fault? Let us suppose for a minute that indeed Establishment did conspire against PTI govt due to its sheer incompetence, then how is it wrong? After all it was the Establishment that propped PTI & muscled it into power. He who gives, also taketh away. So, you want me to cry & wail about Establishment correcting a very very costly mistake? Fat chance of that ever happening. So, which ever way you look at it (Establishment withdrawing support or actively undermining a govt that it helped impose/select) I am not in the wrong at all in the least. If you believe that there was a conspiracy, then prove it - and you can not. So please no more strawmen.

Your (non)argument in the second paragraph of yours can be inverted and fit you perfectly: as long as you get your favorite to play PM you have absolutely no issues how it happened (ends justify the means). How is that right? Have you absolutely no qualms about how IK came to power? Are you that naive or uncaring? Asking generals to help form or perpetuate a bad government is worse than corruption. The proof is in how Pakistan slid down the Transparency International rankings. Agnostic sahib, you do not live in Pakistan, but I do. I have seen how much the rate of bribe has climbed. Right now an Assisstant Comissioner is sitting on a file that should have left his office weeks ago. I know that I have to pay a bribe to get my honest to God legal & fair job done. So much for PTI government which made a lot of noise about corruption. Do I need to remind you serious allegations regarding Farah Gogi or Khan or what-the-hell-ever her last name is supposed to be? 20 millions per posting or transfer was the rate. What do you think are people sitting in such posts going to recover the money that they paid? So please no more assumptions.

To clearly see the knots, just look at your coping mechanism for massive cognitive dissonance that you are displaying right now.

 

[Norwegian]

How come Rana Sanaullah could not be convicted?

Because of Patwarism in Pakistani courts

 

[Ssan]

Ah, did not see this because my handle was mis-spelled.

Yes, the reason why I am so active is precisely that there are very few people here to provide a counter-point to all the pit-siyapa going on. If all these brave pro-PTI posters were ready to dish it out so gloriously, they ought to be ready to accept a bit of it too. Its only fair.

Reality is always more complicated than what a post can manage. I find myself in a position where I am expected to defend PML-N. By God I am just a voter who has to assess the lesser of evils, & not someone associated with any political party. This is most unsavory of positions.

I do know what NS & Co were up to through the 90s. I actually disliked them. Only later when I saw them suffer through the Mushy martial law, did I start to notice that the worst of the PML had become PML-Q, the king's party. CoD, rapprochement with arch-rivals PPP, a greater concern with poorer sections of society, the team of capable lawmakers who could & did deliver results made me rethink my position. The turning point was August 2014 when I was forced to ditch PTI as a party of disruption & Establishment-backed politics. Just for sake of principles & love of country, I had to support NS's narrative. When I saw pre-poll rigging (I was very much plugged into news & analysis at that time) I started to have a soft corner for PML-N. More thoughtful & highly educated people around me started to voice their opposition towards politics of Establishment that was causing so much disruption in the country & economy (TLP, Faizabad, marches on Islamabad, & what-not). So, its been a journey.

I have zero personal interest in PML-N, but I have a lot at stake in Pakistan. So I do what I think needs to be done. If it is supporting PML-N during the time of its persecution, then so be it. If it means to stand against anti-army rhetoric, even conditionally, then so be it. It is shocking for me to see that even some moderators, in their PTI zeal are posting inappropriate thoughts & logic. I must pitch in to correct the balance somewhat. If I seem a bit off-balance, it is a reaction to the extreme opinions bein voiced here.

I mean I can empathize with your position- this forum is a bit too PTI leaning I agree (although I support PTI too). I think someone espousing the other view or even playing devils advocate is necessary. But it’s only a net positive if you are disciplined to be precise and accurate in your arguments. If you lack that, then you lose credibility not only for yourself but the other side too.

 

[Norwegian]

It was obviously a bogus case drummed up under pressure by ANF.

If it was bogus case , how come his lawyers delayed proceedings of charges for years?

So much for PTI government which made a lot of noise about corruption. Do I need to remind you serious allegations regarding Farah Gogi or Khan or what-the-hell-ever her last name is supposed to be?

So allegations against PTI are proof of corruption but court cases against PMLN is proof of victimization?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Have you absolutely no qualms about how IK came to power?

I do - he was denied a clear majority by the same Establishment that plotted to overthrow him and install a corrupt PDM regime.

And, no, there is no strawman here - if you are going to equivocate about the media blackout & crackdown targeting the PTI and justify it, then everything I said earlier stands.

Either unequivocally condemn the oppression and suppression by the Establishment against ALL parties, or accept that your 'principled positions' are in fact quite 'flexible'.

 

[Chak Bamu]

1) misinformation- he is not in the Panama papers. Find a valid source to back up your claim and not a random tweet. I can put up a tweet on twitter with a random fake account that chakBammuLimited offshore account proves something or the other. Else retract your claim.

This is very puzzling. How do you determine whether or not a source is credible. I posted the tweet from THE JOURNALIST WHO BROKE THE PANAMA PAPERS STORY & WROTE A DAMNED BOOK. The guy is a Pulitzer prize winning German Journalist. How is he not credible? Do you think that he would write something lightly? If IK's name is in Panama Papers, and it certainly is, then how come he is still an angel but others are not? Also, what does this have to do with FIA raid on Dr. Arsalan's home????

2) okay but he was/is.

Perhaps. But if they as a family decided to pursue a course of action that cut him off from any liability due to ownership of flats, then what can you or I do about it. Legally, he is not the owner. Besides Ittefaq was a big name in business since the late 50s. I don't know how people imagine that the family's wealth is somehow all due to corruption that happened in 90s?

3) the SC / judges have a history of letting off PPP PML-N on technicalities. They have a pro purana Pakistan bias if anything.

All judges have a history of letting off people on what you call technicalities. But you can not make a case entirely about technicalities as though they people you dislike necessarily have to be guilty. May I remind you that the case of Bani Gala residence's regularization was based on computer-generated forgery, but Saqib Nisar let IK off the hook for next to nothing? How about host of PTI leaders being let off the hook in PTV Attack case where the evidence was very strong, but PTI government purposely messed up the prosecution? May I also remind you that the judge of the case in which NS was awarded a jail sentence is on record saying that he was pressurized to convict NS while the case was weak & the evidence did not measure up?

One day the cases against NS will be opened & reheard. Of course that would be an Amreeki Saaaaazish too.

Party Y gives money to random mob to protest against party x - pre poll rigging sure. party Y pressurizes members of party X to leave him, pre poll rigging? sure.
Party X gets caught up in international conspiracy/news. Party Y files a case against party X, party X gets disqualified. Accountability or pre-poll rigging? Accountability I would argue here.

You are not making any sense here. I have given enough sources. There are plenty more. On top of it I know through my own experience & personal contacts about the rigging that DID take place. If you do not want to believe, fine. Move on, but do not try to obfuscate the issue unnecessarily.

 

[Areesh]

If IK's name is in Panama Papers, and it certainly is

No it isn't

You are lying. Even your posted tweet doesn't say that he is in Panama papers

 

[Chak Bamu]

I mean I can empathize with your position- this forum is a bit too PTI leaning I agree (although I support PTI too). I think someone espousing the other view or even playing devils advocate is necessary. But it’s only a net positive if you are disciplined to be precise and accurate in your arguments. If you lack that, then you lose credibility not only for yourself but the other side too.

Disciplined to be precise & accurate.... Hmmm.... How about not lying? If a person is not lying, that is good enough for me. In so many words, what are you really trying to say? I am not a lawyer, & even lawyers are not always precise & accurate.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

If they stepped back & let IK's govt crumble under the weight of his ego-laden stupidities, how is it anybody's fault?

They did not merely 'step back' - they actively worked to undermine him, an allegation that has been validated by the crackdown against the PTI that started before the NCM was even passed and continued even before the new government could be formed. The FIA is making a fool of itself trying to explain why they did what they did and under whose orders.